General Gun Violence/Gun Control

[everybodhi]

Thanks! I think his defense is going to be age and visual impairment. I wonder if the front door had a peephole or if it did, if he could even see out of it.

If somebody knocked on my door that late, it would scare me but I also would not open it until I checked the camera. iirc, Ralph ran to a couple of other houses nearby before he found one that opened the door and helped him.

I don’t know but if you can’t see who you’re shooting maybe you shouldn’t shoot.
I think it was his companion who ran to other houses.
Thank god no one else was shot out of fear of people who knock on their door.

White Man Who Shot Unarmed Black Teen Ralph Yarl Faces Felony Charges: The Latest
Lynch, who is Lester’s neighbor, was getting ready for bed when he heard the teenager scream that he had been shot. The 42-year-old father of three, had seen Ralph banging on the door of Lester’s home through his kitchen window; he was trying to figure out what was going on next door after he heard shouting.
Lynch ran over to the yard, where he found Ralph covered in blood.

Lynch and another neighbor tried to stop the bleeding. He asked the teenager his name and age—and Ralph struggled to respond but did spell his name. The duo stayed until paramedics arrived.

“I didn’t do anything but hold a kid’s hand so he wouldn’t feel alone,” Lynch said. “He had just gotten shot twice; he had a hole in the side of his head

“That kid is tougher than I am.”

According to Spoonmore’s funding page [$3 million+], Ralph plays multiple instruments in the metropolitan youth orchestra and participated in the Missouri Scholars Academy for gifted high school students in 2022. His goal is to attend Texas A&M University to study chemical engineering.

 

[everybodhi]

Thanks! I think his defense is going to be age and visual impairment. I wonder if the front door had a peephole or if it did, if he could even see out of it.

If somebody knocked on my door that late, it would scare me but I also would not open it until I checked the camera. iirc, Ralph ran to a couple of other houses nearby before he found one that opened the door and helped him.

And with a little research, I found that it’s ok for even the legally blind to have guns, however, they must still be held to the same standard of “good judgement” as anyone else.

The Gun Debate, Why It Matters for the Blind National Federation for the Blind

In recent days there has been much discussion about whether blind individuals should be permitted to own and/or carry firearms. The National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest nationwide organization of blind Americans, understands that guns are dangerous weapons and that anyone who owns, carries, or uses them must therefore exercise great care and sound judgment in doing so. Blindness has no adverse impact on a person’s ability to exercise due care and good judgment. State firearms laws must be applied in a nondiscriminatory manner to blind individuals. Recognizing that laws and regulations regarding the granting of permits to own and/or carry firearms vary throughout our country, our single position on firearms regulation is that a permit to own and/or carry a gun should not be denied to any individual solely on the basis of blindness.

A blind person is of course capable of exercising poor judgment, just like any other man or woman. However, a blind person who exercises poor judgment should be treated like any other individual in the same circumstances and not be held to a different standard merely on account of blindness.

 

[Cool Cats]

Very good point! What time of day did the shooting of Ralph Yarl take place? I notice in the photo of the shooter, he is very elderly and his eyes look like he might be visually impaired.

10:00pm

This is a key section from the PC Affidavit.*** This comes directly after Lester said he just laid down in bed when he heard the doorbell ring.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1648094744499695618

 

[MyBelle]

And with a little research, I found that it’s ok for even the legally blind to have guns, however, they must still be held to the same standard of “good judgement” as anyone else.

The Gun Debate, Why It Matters for the Blind National Federation for the Blind

In recent days there has been much discussion about whether blind individuals should be permitted to own and/or carry firearms. The National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest nationwide organization of blind Americans, understands that guns are dangerous weapons and that anyone who owns, carries, or uses them must therefore exercise great care and sound judgment in doing so. Blindness has no adverse impact on a person’s ability to exercise due care and good judgment. State firearms laws must be applied in a nondiscriminatory manner to blind individuals. Recognizing that laws and regulations regarding the granting of permits to own and/or carry firearms vary throughout our country, our single position on firearms regulation is that a permit to own and/or carry a gun should not be denied to any individual solely on the basis of blindness.

A blind person is of course capable of exercising poor judgment, just like any other man or woman. However, a blind person who exercises poor judgment should be treated like any other individual in the same circumstances and not be held to a different standard merely on account of blindness.

Thanks! That's very interesting. A blind person should be held accountable to the same standard. But Missouri is yet another state that has no Red Flag law.

What about age-related dementia? The family of the shooter rushed to the media and announced he's racist and addicted to Fox News and "Qanon" (whatever that means.) What if he has dementia, a medical condition? Should the man even be driving a vehicle? Living alone?

Really makes me wonder about how some families care for their elderly members. JMO

 

[Kaley Smith]

Foreign perspective​

'The US attitude to guns generally perplexes those in other developed countries, many of which do not understand the unusual permissiveness of American gun laws, and believe that the American public should push for harsher gun control measures in the face of mass shootings.'

Gun culture in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'm very glad this topic is open for discussion. I am Canadian and am very concerned about gun violence in the USA and hope Americans unite to look for solutions.

 

[everybodhi]

DBM double post

 

[everybodhi]

Snipped< What if he has dementia, a medical condition? Should the man even be driving a vehicle? Living alone?

Really makes me wonder about how some families care for their elderly members. JMO

Texas gets points for being one of only 2 states that have laws which prohibit people with dementia from owning guns.
The second link is really long and has a lot of personal stories of people with dementia firing their weapons.
They may not know their wife from an intruder and after they kill her, may continue asking where she is for the rest of their life.
BBM

Dementia, Alzheimer's Disease and Gun Ownership

.. based on a study conducted in the late 1990s and more recent data about gun ownership among people 65 and older, they estimated that 40 to 60 percent of dementia patients have guns in their households.
Federal laws don't explicitly prohibit purchases or ownership of firearms by people with dementia, and only two states — Hawaii and Texas — prohibit it

Dementia presents a unique challenge to gun safety

Critics of gun restrictions like Przebinda argue that the essential difference between driving and guns is that one is a privilege and the other is a protected constitutional right.
"The two are not the same," he said. "You do not have a right to conveyance. You have a right to self-defense, you have a right to protecting your home and your family that's intrinsic to you as a human being."
He balks at any formal assessment of firearm use among people with dementia, saying it could lead to "a totalitarian system that decides when you can have rights and when you cannot."

Edited to add: Mr. Lester seemed cognizant of what he had done in his interview with police, his description was clear (and terrifying). He said he opened the primary door which was locked, saw a “6 foot tall black male”, was afraid and fired twice, shattering the secondary glass storm door which was also locked.
Being 84 doesn’t necessarily mean you have dementia. My mother, from memory, could still tell you the birthday, address, and phone number of all extended family members and everyone else she knew at 84.

 

[SouthAussie]

And with a little research, I found that it’s ok for even the legally blind to have guns, however, they must still be held to the same standard of “good judgement” as anyone else.

The Gun Debate, Why It Matters for the Blind National Federation for the Blind

In recent days there has been much discussion about whether blind individuals should be permitted to own and/or carry firearms. The National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest nationwide organization of blind Americans, understands that guns are dangerous weapons and that anyone who owns, carries, or uses them must therefore exercise great care and sound judgment in doing so. Blindness has no adverse impact on a person’s ability to exercise due care and good judgment. State firearms laws must be applied in a nondiscriminatory manner to blind individuals. Recognizing that laws and regulations regarding the granting of permits to own and/or carry firearms vary throughout our country, our single position on firearms regulation is that a permit to own and/or carry a gun should not be denied to any individual solely on the basis of blindness.

A blind person is of course capable of exercising poor judgment, just like any other man or woman. However, a blind person who exercises poor judgment should be treated like any other individual in the same circumstances and not be held to a different standard merely on account of blindness.

I think one of the MOST important attributes a person must have, to own a gun, is their sight.
I think having a gun puts them in greater peril. Their weapon can so, so easily be turned against them.

I understand that the Blind Federation wants equality, but this particular stance seems to lack common sense.
It could cost the blind person their life.

 

[everybodhi]

I think one of the MOST important attributes a person must have, to own a gun, is their sight.
I think having a gun puts them in greater peril. Their weapon can so, so easily be turned against them.

I understand that the Blind Federation wants equality, but this particular stance seems to lack common sense.
It could cost the blind person their life.

Yeah, eyesight and also a functioning mind both seem like they would not be unreasonable requirements for gun ownership and hardly a sign of a totalitarian system.

 

[AngTxGal]

I'm not sure where you were going with this, but I tend to agree with AngTxGal in regards to her point. Maybe I'm not following where you were going with your post.

I think they are misinterpreting what I said, and implying that my point hat I said comes from a lack of travel experiences.

I was asked why I thought the Swiss had a gun culture but not mass shootings. Historically the Swiss are not diverse- their govt was set up when they were less diverse. My point was maybe countries that are less diverse can agree easier. Is that a stretch? Not at all

The response is the same kind of argument politicians are using that maintains the deadlock- I don’t have to listen to you because I don’t agree and therefore you must not know what you are taking about.

Any solution will come from politicians listening to all sides and finding compromise. And here… those all sides are complex and diverse.

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

I think one of the MOST important attributes a person must have, to own a gun, is their sight.
I think having a gun puts them in greater peril. Their weapon can so, so easily be turned against them.

I understand that the Blind Federation wants equality, but this particular stance seems to lack common sense.
It could cost the blind person their life.

I think ‘legally blind’ doesn’t mean what people think it means. I know people who are ‘legally blind’ who drive cars.
Are we seeing people who are legally blind killing others with guns or cars?
No-
Why not address the problems we have rather than those we don’t?
It is exactly the mentality…to make changes that impact people who are not the problem…that I believe currently holds solutions back. It isn’t common sense
Leave the legally blind gun owners alone, and the deaf, wheel-chaired, amputees, and elderly alone. No one asking for gov’t intervention to remove their guns. Groups would not be RedFlagged- people would.

What is in common among mass shooters is anger, acting on violence, lack of caring about one’s own life and that of others, and access to a gun with ammo.
JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

We are unfortunately at the mercy of our leaders in congress and there seems to be no serious impetus to even begin a heart-felt discussion of how to begin to solve this multi-faceted issue. I think the majority of people want reasonable solutions- but our leaders apparently do not.

Texas isn’t just my home, it is a leader in what happens in the south regarding 2nd Amendment and for border states regarding immigration laws.

To get it- watching the governors debate may help.

JMao

 

[AngTxGal]

BBM. Getting guns out of the hands of mentally ill people by passing a Red Flag law isn't all that complex an issue no matter the size of population. What is insulting is the Texas legislature ignoring the emotional pleas from the Uvalde parents. JMO

Texas leads nation in mass shootings, and gun statistics point to why

When a disturbed teenager in Uvalde sought a high-powered rifle that could fire numerous rounds, he didn’t have far to go. Texas has more licensed gun dealers...

www.dallasnews.com

Texas also has had more people killed in mass shootings than any other state, according to data compiled by Everytown for Gun Safety stretching back to 2009, and the second-highest number of people killed in a single mass shooting, behind Nevada.

Researchers and gun safety advocates aren’t surprised by mass shootings in Texas, where guns are plentiful and accessible largely due to lax and permissive laws.

You are ‘preaching to the choir’ as they say… and I know… I live here.
I support red flags, raised age. And banning of assault rifles.

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

Thanks! That's very interesting. A blind person should be held accountable to the same standard. But Missouri is yet another state that has no Red Flag law.

What about age-related dementia? The family of the shooter rushed to the media and announced he's racist and addicted to Fox News and "Qanon" (whatever that means.) What if he has dementia, a medical condition? Should the man even be driving a vehicle? Living alone?

Really makes me wonder about how some families care for their elderly members. JMO

It sounds like the family was concerned but unwilling or able to intervene.
If RedFlag laws would allow his family to petition for his guns to be removed, it doesn’t solve the issue.
He thought his home was being broken into, he was afraid.
His neighbors didn’t answer the door to help the young man who was shot, Why?
What is the crime history in that area? Why were they scared!?

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

I don’t know but if you can’t see who you’re shooting maybe you shouldn’t shoot.
I think it was his companion who ran to other houses.
Thank god no one else was shot out of fear of people who knock on their door.

White Man Who Shot Unarmed Black Teen Ralph Yarl Faces Felony Charges: The Latest
Lynch, who is Lester’s neighbor, was getting ready for bed when he heard the teenager scream that he had been shot. The 42-year-old father of three, had seen Ralph banging on the door of Lester’s home through his kitchen window; he was trying to figure out what was going on next door after he heard shouting.
Lynch ran over to the yard, where he found Ralph covered in blood.

Lynch and another neighbor tried to stop the bleeding. He asked the teenager his name and age—and Ralph struggled to respond but did spell his name. The duo stayed until paramedics arrived.

“I didn’t do anything but hold a kid’s hand so he wouldn’t feel alone,” Lynch said. “He had just gotten shot twice; he had a hole in the side of his head

“That kid is tougher than I am.”

According to Spoonmore’s funding page [$3 million+], Ralph plays multiple instruments in the metropolitan youth orchestra and participated in the Missouri Scholars Academy for gifted high school students in 2022. His goal is to attend Texas A&M University to study chemical engineering.

Heartbreaking that a kid was in this situation and met with a bullet, at least someone came to help!
If some think the solution is to force the elderly to give up their guns, that won’t happen. A mistake of one does not logically demand action to all other elderly.
I would like to know the state of mind, healthy, and beliefs of the shooter.
Some have shared he had a far right mentality, like those who stormed the white house Jan6. Was he a fanatic?

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

Texas gets points for being one of only 2 states that have laws which prohibit people with dementia from owning guns.
The second link is really long and has a lot of personal stories of people with dementia firing their weapons.
They may not know their wife from an intruder and after they kill her, may continue asking where she is for the rest of their life.
BBM

Dementia, Alzheimer's Disease and Gun Ownership

.. based on a study conducted in the late 1990s and more recent data about gun ownership among people 65 and older, they estimated that 40 to 60 percent of dementia patients have guns in their households.
Federal laws don't explicitly prohibit purchases or ownership of firearms by people with dementia, and only two states — Hawaii and Texas — prohibit it

Dementia presents a unique challenge to gun safety

Critics of gun restrictions like Przebinda argue that the essential difference between driving and guns is that one is a privilege and the other is a protected constitutional right.
"The two are not the same," he said. "You do not have a right to conveyance. You have a right to self-defense, you have a right to protecting your home and your family that's intrinsic to you as a human being."
He balks at any formal assessment of firearm use among people with dementia, saying it could lead to "a totalitarian system that decides when you can have rights and when you cannot."

Edited to add: Mr. Lester seemed cognizant of what he had done in his interview with police, his description was clear (and terrifying). He said he opened the primary door which was locked, saw a “6 foot tall black male”, was afraid and fired twice, shattering the secondary glass storm door which was also locked.
Being 84 doesn’t necessarily mean you have dementia. My mother, from memory, could still tell you the birthday, address, and phone number of all extended family members and everyone else she knew at 84.

Family who care for their elderly parents don’t need a law to tell them what is needed.
We removed most all guns from my parents home when my dad began signs of dementia. Those that remained were only available to my mom to use- for protection. They now live next door to a cop- but she still has a loaded pistol in the safe by her bed. Dad just past months ago- so now she lives alone for the first time in 64 yrs.
Does she show any signs that would warrant her further care or less independence? Not yet
JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

Well, we had the shooting in Vancouver yesterday ( a miracle that wasn't a blood bath). Today two strangers in Toronto argue over a parking place, one is brutally stabbed. Why are people soooo willing to resort to violence for everything?

Exactly!
So what gun laws prevent people from that level of anger and violence? None.
After we limit gun access to stop the madness we still must address the root causes.
What are they?

JMO

 

[JennieM]

Exactly!
So what gun laws prevent people from that level of anger and violence? None.
After we limit gun access to stop the madness we still must address the root causes.
What are they?

JMO

There are unhinged individuals all around the world, everywhere, absolutely everywhere. You can analyse the root causes of why some resort to violence ad infinitum.

However, from a pool of unhinged individuals, frequent episodes of extreme violence tend to arise from those who can access weapons. This is not possible in all countries.

The only gun law that can stop this madness and prevent people from this level of anger and violence is a gun law that bans the access to guns to the masses.

If the Second Amendment is not working, time to admit defeat. Better that than having 9-year olds being shot down every day. It's just so incredibly senseless and hurtful and utterly damaging, innocent lives being lost for NOTHING!, and the everlasting impact to their families.

I know many of you feel very differently on this subject and you have your reasons, but this is my perspective. I don't live in the US, so again whatever I say will count for less. I don't expect to sway you, just putting my thoughts on the table. MOO.

 

[seasideForest]

What I’m hearing is people suggesting what works elsewhere is a solution here. As they explain how simply it works they describe things that don’t exist here.

Gun ownership, laws, crime, etc in the US can’t be as simple as it is in some countries- or it would be solved.
Any implication that we aren’t trying or aren’t smart enough or don’t care enough is insulting. Any stereotype of a single mindset of a gun owner or control advocate is also insulting.
Complex multifaceted issues are not solved by simple solutions.
I have traveled coast to coast in the US, Canada BC to Toronto, Mexico, Central America, the Caribbean, lived in four states.
Have you visited Texas? the border, DFW metroplex, Gulf Coast, pan handle, The Alamo, the valley.
Ten European countries could fit in Texas
Celebrating diversity means listening to and considering diverse points of view- that is hard.
I’m frustrated by the inaction, and heartbroken and livid by the loss of life, but I do believe Americans want to do the hard work to find a compromise.
We have a history of doing so
JMO

No, I have never visited Texas. In fact, I've tended to be in the more northern parts of the US including Alaska. I've been explaining some aspects from the countries I know more intimately which include a number of European countries and Canada and you have been arguing back using Texas as an example. That's one of the reasons I wrote that I'd be interested in reading posts from Americans in other parts of the US.

I'm by no means suggesting Americans aren't smart enough to deal with this rise in gun violence. I've written here on WS that Americans need to deal with this themselves, there aren't any solutions from outside, there can't be. Other posters on this thread have mentioned why I and others have written about other countries' gun laws, so I'll just leave that there.

I'm hearing (from you) that the US is uniquely diverse, laws and crime uniquely complex. I find that insulting too. Size isn't everything! So, ten European countries could fit in Texas. What's your point? Several smaller American states could also fit in Texas. Are they less diverse? I don't really get it, but I don't have to get it either. I don't live in the US and am unlikely to even visit again.

All JMO.

 

[scapa]

Not sure if this has been posted, but some interesting analysis here:

WaPo (IIRC) had a long-form piece also this week that broke things down state by state with some detailed analysis and tracking.

One mass killing every 6.53 days: US shootings are on a record pace

Despite the death toll, there is little indication of federal policy changes, but some states have tried to impose more gun control

www.theguardian.com