General Gun Violence/Gun Control

[MyBelle]

Texas gets points for being one of only 2 states that have laws which prohibit people with dementia from owning guns.
The second link is really long and has a lot of personal stories of people with dementia firing their weapons.
They may not know their wife from an intruder and after they kill her, may continue asking where she is for the rest of their life.
BBM

Dementia, Alzheimer's Disease and Gun Ownership

.. based on a study conducted in the late 1990s and more recent data about gun ownership among people 65 and older, they estimated that 40 to 60 percent of dementia patients have guns in their households.
Federal laws don't explicitly prohibit purchases or ownership of firearms by people with dementia, and only two states — Hawaii and Texas — prohibit it

Dementia presents a unique challenge to gun safety

Critics of gun restrictions like Przebinda argue that the essential difference between driving and guns is that one is a privilege and the other is a protected constitutional right.
"The two are not the same," he said. "You do not have a right to conveyance. You have a right to self-defense, you have a right to protecting your home and your family that's intrinsic to you as a human being."
He balks at any formal assessment of firearm use among people with dementia, saying it could lead to "a totalitarian system that decides when you can have rights and when you cannot."

Edited to add: Mr. Lester seemed cognizant of what he had done in his interview with police, his description was clear (and terrifying). He said he opened the primary door which was locked, saw a “6 foot tall black male”, was afraid and fired twice, shattering the secondary glass storm door which was also locked.
Being 84 doesn’t necessarily mean you have dementia. My mother, from memory, could still tell you the birthday, address, and phone number of all extended family members and everyone else she knew at 84.

Przebinda is a gas bag who thinks the Constitutional right to own a weapon of violence is more important than protecting human lives.

Red Flag laws would have prevented the Missouri shooting of the young man. While Mr. Lester may have been cognizant, we also don't know whether he was in the military and engaged in combat or was in law enforcement. People who suffer from dementia can have very aggressive outbursts as noted in your link. JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Heartbreaking that a kid was in this situation and met with a bullet, at least someone came to help!
If some think the solution is to force the elderly to give up their guns, that won’t happen. A mistake of one does not logically demand action to all other elderly.
I would like to know the state of mind, healthy, and beliefs of the shooter.
Some have shared he had a far right mentality, like those who stormed the white house Jan6. Was he a fanatic?

JMO

Nobody has proposed removing guns from the hands of "all elderly." The defendant in this case will no doubt have a mental evaluation.

Red Flag laws allow families and law enforcement to step in and remove access to guns from someone who shows signs of dementia or instability and who refuses to give up their guns. JMO

 

[MyBelle]

No, I have never visited Texas. In fact, I've tended to be in the more northern parts of the US including Alaska. I've been explaining some aspects from the countries I know more intimately which include a number of European countries and Canada and you have been arguing back using Texas as an example. That's one of the reasons I wrote that I'd be interested in reading posts from Americans in other parts of the US.

I'm by no means suggesting Americans aren't smart enough to deal with this rise in gun violence. I've written here on WS that Americans need to deal with this themselves, there aren't any solutions from outside, there can't be. Other posters on this thread have mentioned why I and others have written about other countries' gun laws, so I'll just leave that there.

I'm hearing (from you) that the US is uniquely diverse, laws and crime uniquely complex. I find that insulting too. Size isn't everything! So, ten European countries could fit in Texas. What's your point? Several smaller American states could also fit in Texas. Are they less diverse? I don't really get it, but I don't have to get it either. I don't live in the US and am unlikely to even visit again.

All JMO.

I've lived in 10 states including Texas. What makes it unique is politicians who refuse to pass common sense public safety laws such as Red Flag laws. I had never heard of Red Flag laws until the horrific Highland Park IL shooting at a July 4th parade....one of the most traditional celebrations in the U.S. JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

(snipped for focus)

I'm hearing (from you) that the US is uniquely diverse, laws and crime uniquely complex. I find that insulting too. Size isn't everything! So, ten European countries could fit in Texas. What's your point? Several smaller American states could also fit in Texas. Are they less diverse? I don't really get it, but I don't have to get it either. I don't live in the US and am unlikely to even visit again.

All JMO.

Australia IS pretty much the same size as the US.


Australia's Size Compared

Our population is smaller, but our diversity is more than equal ... "Over 200 languages are spoken in Australia. 21% of the population reports speaking a language other than English." Link

Similar to your comments, what we found is that stopping the gun violence meant stopping the free access to guns.

We even now have a permanent gun amnesty, started two years ago. A person can turn in their gun(s) at any time. Over the past 12 months, "17,543 firearms and weapons were surrendered and 606 firearms parts and accessories were surrendered". Link

This is only a small dent in the over 200,000 unregistered firearms that they think are floating around out there, but these people who surrendered their firearms will now not have them stolen by criminals, and they won't be prosecuted for having an unregistered firearm.

We just have to keep nipping at the problem. Constantly and consistently.

 

[SouthAussie]

(snipped for focus)

If the Second Amendment is not working, time to admit defeat. Better that than having 9-year olds being shot down every day. It's just so incredibly senseless and hurtful and utterly damaging, innocent lives being lost for NOTHING!, and the everlasting impact to their families.

Well, maybe not for nothing (though I know what you mean).
I am not sure why people are not looking at the fact that they are victims of profiteering gun makers. It is all about leveraging one interpretation of the 2nd amendment, for money.


Over the past two years gun manufacturers made record profits ...
For example, in 2021, the largest publicly traded gunmaker in the United States, Sturm, Ruger & Company, topped $280 million in profits and set a new company record.
Similarly, profits for Smith & Wesson Brands, the second largest gunmaker, reached nearly $450 million and reached a new company high.
The windfall for gunmakers is occurring at the same time that firearm deaths, gun injuries and mass shootings are increasing.

Gun Companies are Making Millions at the Expense of American Lives


Eg:
In 2010 the NRA received $71 million in donations—many of these donations coming directly from the gun industry. The NRA has 22 “corporate partners” (ahem, gun companies) and 12 of these corporations manufacture assault weapons: Arsenal, Inc.; Benelli; Beretta USA Corporation; Charles Daly; DPMS Panther, Arms; FNH USA; McMillan Group International; ParaUSA; Remington Arms Co., Inc.; SIGARMS, Inc.; Smith & Wesson Corporation; and Sturm, Ruger & Co., Inc.

The NRA is lobbying and the gun companies are paying the bills

 

[JennieM]

Well, maybe not for nothing (though I know what you mean).
I am not sure why people are not looking at the fact that they are victims of profiteering gun makers. It is all about leveraging one interpretation of the 2nd amendment, for money.


Over the past two years gun manufacturers made record profits ...
For example, in 2021, the largest publicly traded gunmaker in the United States, Sturm, Ruger & Company, topped $280 million in profits and set a new company record.
Similarly, profits for Smith & Wesson Brands, the second largest gunmaker, reached nearly $450 million and reached a new company high.
The windfall for gunmakers is occurring at the same time that firearm deaths, gun injuries and mass shootings are increasing.

Gun Companies are Making Millions at the Expense of American Lives


Eg:
In 2010 the NRA received $71 million in donations—many of these donations coming directly from the gun industry. The NRA has 22 “corporate partners” (ahem, gun companies) and 12 of these corporations manufacture assault weapons: Arsenal, Inc.; Benelli; Beretta USA Corporation; Charles Daly; DPMS Panther, Arms; FNH USA; McMillan Group International; ParaUSA; Remington Arms Co., Inc.; SIGARMS, Inc.; Smith & Wesson Corporation; and Sturm, Ruger & Co., Inc.

The NRA is lobbying and the gun companies are paying the bills

I was actually thinking of certain entities profiteering from these gun sales and consequently from these deaths when I was writing my post. Really glad you pointed this out!

 

[JennieM]

By Brandon Drenon
BBC News, Washington DC

What is a stand your ground law and which states have one?​

Two recent cases of unarmed people being shot and killed in the US have renewed discussion of so-called "stand your ground" laws.
In the past week, 16-year-old Ralph Yarl was shot twice after ringing the doorbell of the wrong home and 20-year-old Kaylin Gillis died after being shot upon entering the wrong driveway.
The shootings have prompted questions about a person's rights to protect themselves and their property in the US - and when a person can use deadly force in self defence.
The answer depends on where you live.

What is a stand your ground law and which states have one?

Recent shootings of unarmed victims raise questions about the right to protect people and property.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Australia IS pretty much the same size as the US.

View attachment 416652
Australia's Size Compared

Our population is smaller, but our diversity is more than equal ... "Over 200 languages are spoken in Australia. 21% of the population reports speaking a language other than English." Link

Similar to your comments, what we found is that stopping the gun violence meant stopping the free access to guns.

We even now have a permanent gun amnesty, started two years ago. A person can turn in their gun(s) at any time. Over the past 12 months, "17,543 firearms and weapons were surrendered and 606 firearms parts and accessories were surrendered". Link

This is only a small dent in the over 200,000 unregistered firearms that they think are floating around out there, but these people who surrendered their firearms will now not have them stolen by criminals, and they won't be prosecuted for having an unregistered firearm.

We just have to keep nipping at the problem. Constantly and consistently.

The population is vastly different - 25 million in Australia vs 326 million in the United States.
There are more people in Texas than there are in Australia. Australia doesn’t have a Bill of Rights. In my opinion it’s like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[neesaki]

This guy is a felon. It is against the law for a felon to possess a gun. Now what law can we pass to prevent something like this. Criminals don’t care about laws. moo

Police arrest man who allegedly shot 6-year-old when basketball rolled into yard

A North Carolina man allegedly shot a 6-year-old girl, her parents and an additional neighbor after a basketball rolled into his yard.

abcnews.go.com

Gaston County Police have multiple warrants for Singletary’s arrest. He is charged with four counts of attempted murder, two counts of assault with a deadly weapon and one count of possession of a firearm by a felon.

Not sure the law in all states, but the state of Texas does allow a formerly convicted felon to possess a firearm for self defense. Though they are not allowed to carry outside the home. There may be a timeline as to how long after they’ve completed their sentence though. Not sure what that is.

ETA: A lot of “felons” didn’t commit a violent crime, and are or were never violent. Not sure what the concern is with them owning a forearm.

 

[SouthAussie]

The population is vastly different - 25 million in Australia vs 326 million in the United States.
There are more people in Texas than there are in Australia. Australia doesn’t have a Bill of Rights. In my opinion it’s like comparing apples to oranges.

I will explain the comparison ...

Distance from NY to Dallas = 1,556 miles
Distance from Townsville to Adelaide = 1,631 miles
(or pick any two places of similar geographic placement in both countries, the distances are much the same)

Do people in NY and Dallas think the same ... no.
Do people in Townsville and Adelaide think the same ... no.
Because they are far apart there are some cultural differences, and some cultural sameness.

How many people speak a different language at home in Australia ... 21%.
How many people speak a different language at home in the US ... 22%. Link

Nobody was speaking of the Bill of Rights in our conversation flow. What was under discussion was the geographic size of the US and the cultural diversity, as difficulties in setting some sensible and agreed upon gun laws.

 

[Kaley Smith]

What I’m hearing is people suggesting what works elsewhere is a solution here. As they explain how simply it works they describe things that don’t exist here.

Gun ownership, laws, crime, etc in the US can’t be as simple as it is in some countries- or it would be solved.
Any implication that we aren’t trying or aren’t smart enough or don’t care enough is insulting. Any stereotype of a single mindset of a gun owner or control advocate is also insulting.
Complex multifaceted issues are not solved by simple solutions.
I have traveled coast to coast in the US, Canada BC to Toronto, Mexico, Central America, the Caribbean, lived in four states.
Have you visited Texas? the border, DFW metroplex, Gulf Coast, pan handle, The Alamo, the valley.
Ten European countries could fit in Texas
Celebrating diversity means listening to and considering diverse points of view- that is hard.
I’m frustrated by the inaction, and heartbroken and livid by the loss of life, but I do believe Americans want to do the hard work to find a compromise.
We have a history of doing so
JMO

I have spent A LOT of time on the NRA site in an effort to understand their thinking, and I can tell you there is zero desire or willingness to compromise. None. They're just digging in their heels more. It is very discouraging. They are just living in fear that the government is coming after their guns. I'm not saying that all gun owners in the US feel that way, but the NRA still holds the power over many, many lawmakers on this issue. Until this changes, I'm afraid the carnage due to gun violence will continue.

 

[Kaley Smith]

I don't believe handguns are banned in Canada.
But regardless, gun crime in Toronto for example has risen, why? And regardless of "gun" crime, why is violent crime rising? Why? There is a lot of finger pointing about guns, but the question of why people are restoring to violence is not being answered.

I'd say being so close to the US isn't helping. Illegal guns are literally pouring in across the border. Some of the attitudes of distrust of authority and fear of immigrants are seeping in to Canada as well.

 

[AngTxGal]

I have spent A LOT of time on the NRA site in an effort to understand their thinking, and I can tell you there is zero desire or willingness to compromise. None. They're just digging in their heels more. It is very discouraging. They are just living in fear that the government is coming after their guns. I'm not saying that all gun owners in the US feel that way, but the NRA still holds the power over many, many lawmakers on this issue. Until this changes, I'm afraid the carnage due to gun violence will continue.

Yes, the NRA is a powerful lobby, as are gun manufacturers.
Gun makers advertise their products in first person shooter video games.

That fact has been spoken against by the NRA. Or at least it was in 2012 after the Sandy Hook mass shooting. I’ve linked an article from that time and how the NRA reacted.

If a lawsuit against this type of advertising was won, it may bring attention to the reason young men who do not yet own a gun know so much about assault rifles they’ve never seen in real life much less handled. Many learn through video games. And when they search for others ways to take out their anger and aggression they turn their violence to mass shootings.

JMO

NRA: Video game industry 'sows violence against its own people'

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Kaley Smith]

I am a DV survivor. I will NEVER own a gun. I know that there is a much larger chance of it being used against me than me using it to defend myself. Furthermore, I am not willing to take someone's life. My broken bones and other injuries can heal, killing someone is not something that I would be able to heal after. To me killing someone is never the answer to any problem.

We’re very ethnically & culturally diverse.

Your quote:


We’re a mosaic of people yet the majority of us agree about firearms.

“Registration of all firearms is supported by 85% of Canadians, while 14% are opposed. According to this poll, support has increased since 1995 when the debate over Bill C-68 was in progress. Support for legislation preventing civilians from owning handguns is also strong among Canadians, with a majority of 67%.”

Public Awareness and Perceptions of Law Reform Initiatives - Public Perception of Crime and Justice in Canada: A Review of Opinion Polls

This study examines public perceptions of the criminal justice system (CJS) with respect to perceptions of crime versus actual crime rates and confidence in the system. Findings suggest that public perception of crime is unrelated to actual crime rates and that confidence in the CJS is low...

www.justice.gc.ca

ETA: correction about handguns in Canada:
“The Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, today announced the national freeze on the sale, purchase, and transfer of handguns comes into effect. From now on, people cannot buy, sell, or transfer handguns within Canada, and they cannot bring newly acquired handguns into the country.”

Freezing the market on handguns

Fewer guns mean safer communities. That’s why the Government of Canada is implementing some of the strongest gun control measures in a generation.

pm.gc.ca

Yes, the pro-gun lobby is very weak in Canada, and we view guns differently here than in the US. They're for target practice, hunting and protection from wild animals. Period. We do not feel safer with guns. Very few of us ever buy a gun for self-defense or even think of it. Dad owned a single shot .22 rifle on the farm to shoot coyotes so they wouldn't raid the henhouse, and it was stored out of reach of children and with the bullets nowhere near the gun. In other words, we did not grow up with a "locked and loaded" mentality. Nor do we give guns as a gift. In fact, many parents even hesitate giving toy guns as gifts to their kids. Growing up in this type of culture makes it hard to understand the mindset in the USA regarding guns as a form of protection from a dangerous government or fellow human being.

 

[AngTxGal]

Nobody has proposed removing guns from the hands of "all elderly." The defendant in this case will no doubt have a mental evaluation.

Red Flag laws allow families and law enforcement to step in and remove access to guns from someone who shows signs of dementia or instability and who refuses to give up their guns. JMO

I have no issue with the spirit of the RedFlag, would like to hear the process.
Gov Abbott has said in the past that he expects them to be shot down by the Supreme Court, As a violation of due process, illegal search and seizure.
I saw Gov Lee of TN came out in support, and their General Assembly ended the session to avoid making a decision.

It could make people who suffer, or with family who suffer from anxiety or depression hesitate seeking mental health help if doing so may force them to give up all their guns.

Where would these guns go? Do they become property of the state?
Guns as investments is why the number of guns per American stats don’t make sense- not all guns are for use. Some are collectibles purchased as investments, like art or jewelry.
1 Teen boy pops off at school or commits an act of violence or makes threats to do so, has his shotgun locked up in the family safe for six months, I get that.
Who decides when and how he gets it back? Who prevents him from borrowing a friends’ gun?
2 A teen boy causes his father to lose $10,000 worth of guns and ammo to the state- without due process and no crime has been committed? Not gonna fly.

It is the prediction of a crime- tricky business
Currently it seems
1) the signs were vaguely visible to those near, but not to authorities until after the fact; or
2) authorities had already been informed but no action had been taken.
I think the key is family, parents, school admin need to act based on common sense rather than ignore the issue. Lock up guns from kids showing signs of being mentally unwell, for their own safety and that of others. How tough is that?
Then what- does the state intervene to provide mental health services?

JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

I have spent A LOT of time on the NRA site in an effort to understand their thinking, and I can tell you there is zero desire or willingness to compromise. None. They're just digging in their heels more. It is very discouraging. They are just living in fear that the government is coming after their guns. I'm not saying that all gun owners in the US feel that way, but the NRA still holds the power over many, many lawmakers on this issue. Until this changes, I'm afraid the carnage due to gun violence will continue.

It is interesting looking at the history of the NRA. There was a time when they thought gun control was a smart idea.


For much of the 20th century, the NRA had lobbied and co-authored legislation that was similar to the modern legislative measures the association now characterizes as unconstitutional.

1963: NRA Executive Vice-President Franklin Orth agreed at a congressional hearing that mail-order sales should be banned stating, “We do think that any sane American, who calls himself an American, can object to placing into this bill the instrument which killed the president of the United States.”

The NRA also supported California’s Mulford Act of 1967, which had banned carrying loaded weapons in public in response to the Black Panther Party’s impromptu march on the State Capitol to protest gun control legislation on May 2, 1967.

When the NRA Supported Gun Control

The organization changed its stance in the 1970s

time.com

One sign of how much the NRA had changed: The Second Amendment right to bear arms never came up in the 166 pages of congressional testimony regarding the 1934 gun law. Today, the organization treats those words as its mantra, constantly citing them.

How the NRA evolved from backing a 1934 ban on machine guns to blocking nearly all firearm restrictions today

The group, founded in 1871, didn’t try to smother virtually all gun control efforts until the mid-1970s.

theconversation.com

 

[PrairieWind]

It is interesting looking at the history of the NRA. There was a time when they thought gun control was a smart idea.


For much of the 20th century, the NRA had lobbied and co-authored legislation that was similar to the modern legislative measures the association now characterizes as unconstitutional.

1963: NRA Executive Vice-President Franklin Orth agreed at a congressional hearing that mail-order sales should be banned stating, “We do think that any sane American, who calls himself an American, can object to placing into this bill the instrument which killed the president of the United States.”

The NRA also supported California’s Mulford Act of 1967, which had banned carrying loaded weapons in public in response to the Black Panther Party’s impromptu march on the State Capitol to protest gun control legislation on May 2, 1967.

When the NRA Supported Gun Control

The organization changed its stance in the 1970s

time.com

One sign of how much the NRA had changed: The Second Amendment right to bear arms never came up in the 166 pages of congressional testimony regarding the 1934 gun law. Today, the organization treats those words as its mantra, constantly citing them.

How the NRA evolved from backing a 1934 ban on machine guns to blocking nearly all firearm restrictions today

The group, founded in 1871, didn’t try to smother virtually all gun control efforts until the mid-1970s.

theconversation.com

Actually I think the NRA's stance on firearm legislation is very well thought out and makes perfect sense. IF you want to understand it.

 

[MyBelle]

I have no issue with the spirit of the RedFlag, would like to hear the process.
Gov Abbott has said in the past that he expects them to be shot down by the Supreme Court, As a violation of due process, illegal search and seizure.
I saw Gov Lee of TN came out in support, and their General Assembly ended the session to avoid making a decision.

It could make people who suffer, or with family who suffer from anxiety or depression hesitate seeking mental health help if doing so may force them to give up all their guns.

Where would these guns go? Do they become property of the state?
Guns as investments is why the number of guns per American stats don’t make sense- not all guns are for use. Some are collectibles purchased as investments, like art or jewelry.
1 Teen boy pops off at school or commits an act of violence or makes threats to do so, has his shotgun locked up in the family safe for six months, I get that.
Who decides when and how he gets it back? Who prevents him from borrowing a friends’ gun?
2 A teen boy causes his father to lose $10,000 worth of guns and ammo to the state- without due process and no crime has been committed? Not gonna fly.

It is the prediction of a crime- tricky business
Currently it seems
1) the signs were vaguely visible to those near, but not to authorities until after the fact; or
2) authorities had already been informed but no action had been taken.
I think the key is family, parents, school admin need to act based on common sense rather than ignore the issue. Lock up guns from kids showing signs of being mentally unwell, for their own safety and that of others. How tough is that?
Then what- does the state intervene to provide mental health services?

JMO

Correctly written, Red Flag laws are as Constitutional as Emergency Orders of Protection for victims of domestic violence. A Judge signs the Order. Due Process is followed. Plenty of information available on the Internet about how the process works in each state that has enacted them. The guns aren't seized "forever."

 

[PrairieWind]

Correctly written, Red Flag laws are as Constitutional as Emergency Orders of Protection for victims of domestic violence. A Judge signs the Order. Due Process is followed. Plenty of information available on the Internet about how the process works in each state that has enacted them. The guns aren't seized "forever."

OH by no means is it that simple. I wish it was.

 

[Betty P]

Nobody has proposed removing guns from the hands of "all elderly." The defendant in this case will no doubt have a mental evaluation.

Red Flag laws allow families and law enforcement to step in and remove access to guns from someone who shows signs of dementia or instability and who refuses to give up their guns. JMO

People have to re-take driving exams periodically, especially in old age. If you have enough problems to make your driving unsafe, you lose your license. Why should it be any different with a gun?