General Gun Violence/Gun Control

[Cota332]

The devil is in the details of the study.
And the goal of any new laws.
I would aim change where gun control legislation can have the most impact.

Of course it makes perfect sense that assault weapons do not account for even a majority of gun deaths in this country.
Problem is, assault weapons make up 100% of the multiple deaths by a single shooter.

I’m not worried about a single gunman with a handgun, or even a rifle in our malls, fast food restaurants, other public places, and schools- I’m worried about the guns that are mostly being used in mass shootings.

If we are going to change gun laws, surely we all can agree that preventing mass shootings in public places and schools is the place to start!

JMO

There have been many mass-casualty incidents that do not involve rifles (aka your term for Assault Weapons).
I personally do not believe that is prudent to rally for legislation that consists of less than .3% of firearm-related deaths.

The .3% being mass casualty incidents, without accounting for what type of firearm was used. Furthermore, what qualifies as a mass-casualty incident is murky in its own right.

 

[AngTxGal]

There have been many mass-casualty incidents that do not involve rifles (aka your term for Assault Weapons).
I personally do not believe that is prudent to rally for legislation that consists of less than .3% of firearm-related deaths.

The .3% being mass casualty incidents, without accounting for what type of firearm was used. Furthermore, what qualifies as a mass-casualty incident is murky in its own right.

I did Not use the term “assault weapon’ to mean rifle. Yes, I know the difference.
My question is- does the percent, definition of mass-casualty, or gun type matter to the dead?
No. The only reason to even mention these factors is to define legislation, or have the most influence on preventing loss of future lives.

Mass shootings are being targeted because their nature is odd compared to other shootings.
- shooter not related to murdered
- no apparent motive
- public place
- timing of event was short
- number of victims is exceptionally high for the length of time
- shooter may have posted prediction on social media
- the timing, location, shooter, and victims was unable to be predicted by law enforcement.

There are likely other factors I’ve missed.
The point is that we currently live in a country where people are being killed for no apparent darn reason. Like a sport, a game, a competition, target practice. It is sick.
Parents are growing increasingly worried about the safety of their children at school.

IMO that is plenty reason to not quibble over the details.

JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

There have been many mass-casualty incidents that do not involve rifles (aka your term for Assault Weapons).
I personally do not believe that is prudent to rally for legislation that consists of less than .3% of firearm-related deaths.

The .3% being mass casualty incidents, without accounting for what type of firearm was used. Furthermore, what qualifies as a mass-casualty incident is murky in its own right.

What do we do? Just learn to live with the fear and horror that our kids or entire families can be blown away in mere minutes?

Oh wait, maybe we have already learned to live with it.
That may be even scarier.

jmo

 

[Cota332]

I did Not use the term “assault weapon’ to mean rifle. Yes, I know the difference.
My question is- does the percent, definition of mass-casualty, or gun type matter to the dead?
No. The only reason to even mention these factors is to define legislation, or have the most influence on preventing loss of future lives.

Mass shootings are being targeted because their nature is odd compared to other shootings.
- shooter not related to murdered
- no apparent motive
- public place
- timing of event was short
- number of victims is exceptionally high for the length of time
- shooter may have posted prediction on social media
- the timing, location, shooter, and victims was unable to be predicted by law enforcement.

There are likely other factors I’ve missed.
The point is that we currently live in a country where people are being killed for no apparent darn reason. Like a sport, a game, a competition, target practice. It is sick.
Parents are growing increasingly worried about the safety of their children at school.

IMO that is plenty reason to not quibble over the details.

JMO

I don't intend to come off as condescending, and my aim is not to offend, but the term "assault weapon" does not have a definitive definition, and thus is largely rejected in gun-related communities.
If your aim is to truly restrict these certain weapons, it is essential to erase such nomenclature from the collective consciousness.

The definition you have laid out for a mass-casualty incident would differ from the currently most cited resource, The Gun Violence Archive(GVA). While GVA does a superb job of compiling a general overview of Gun Violence, it lacks the ability to differentiate between truly random mass-casualty events.

Straight from GVA's website :

"GVA also catalogs incidents where a victim was injured by shooting or by a victim who was the subject of an armed robber or home invader. Incidents of defensive gun use, home owners who stop a home invasion, store clerks who stop a robbery, individuals who stop an assault or rape with a gun are also collected. "

I would like to maintain that it is still enormously unlikely to be a victim of a mass casualty incident - statically speaking.
Unfortunately, every place on this Earth will continue to experience instances wherein people are killed for no apparent darn reason. Firearms or not, violence/murder, in general, is woven into the fabric of the human condition.

 

[Cota332]

What do we do? Just learn to live with the fear and horror that our kids or entire families can be blown away in mere minutes?

Oh wait, maybe we have already learned to live with it.
That may be even scarier.

jmo

I personally would posture that the world - not just the US - maintains an unhealthy fascination with Mass Killers. Thus, incidents are increasingly scrutinized and followed, creating the appearance that these incidents are much more prevalent than they really are - all while also inspiring mass killers to follow in the footsteps of those who came before. Creating somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy on its own.

 

[Stunned]

BBM Well said!

I have never understood why any politician became so fanatical about guns that they refuse to pass common sense laws when it comes to assault weapons that keep slaughtering human beings.

JMO

Money, money money! IMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

I personally would posture that the world - not just the US - maintains an unhealthy fascination with Mass Killers. Thus, incidents are increasingly scrutinized and followed, creating the appearance that these incidents are much more prevalent than they really are - all while also inspiring mass killers to follow in the footsteps of those who came before. Creating somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy on its own.

Tell that to the families of Sandy Hook, Parkland, Uvalde, Covenant School, or now, Allen TX.

I cannot speak for the world, but I speak for myself. I am not fascinated with mass killers. They are nothing to me. Some are concerned with why they do what they do, and I commend their empathy. Others may be drawn to the chaos, gore, and violence, and I agree that is not healthy.

I held a devastated woman in my arms in 2009 at a laundromat in a shopping plaza watching the news, waiting for an update, as the LA Fitness shooter had just killed 4. Her granddaughter was among the victims, but survived.

I care about the innocent victims.

Who will be the next victim? It may be a member of my family while shopping, my grandkids at school, people in my community, or someone I don’t even know.

It could be you.
I care about that.

jmo

---

“What separates us from the animals, what separates us from the chaos, is our ability to mourn people we’ve never met.”

― David Levithan, Love Is the Higher Law

 

[MyBelle]

I personally would posture that the world - not just the US - maintains an unhealthy fascination with Mass Killers. Thus, incidents are increasingly scrutinized and followed, creating the appearance that these incidents are much more prevalent than they really are - all while also inspiring mass killers to follow in the footsteps of those who came before. Creating somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy on its own.

BBM. You don't consider 200 mass murders in under 5 months to be prevalent? I strongly disagree.

What is inspiring mass killers are the multitude of podcasts and blogs who pour fuel via twisted rhetoric so that they will "act out" their violent fantasies.

JMO

 

[Cota332]

Tell that to the families of Sandy Hook, Parkland, Uvalde, Covenant School, or now, Allen TX.

I cannot speak for the world, but I speak for myself. I am not fascinated with mass killers. They are nothing to me. Some are concerned with why they do what they do, and I commend their empathy. Others may be drawn to the chaos, gore, and violence, and I agree that is not healthy.

I held a devastated woman in my arms in 2009 at a laundromat in a shopping plaza watching the news, waiting for an update, as the LA Fitness shooter had just killed 4. Her granddaughter was among the victims, but survived.

I care about the innocent victims.

Who will be the next victim? It may be a member of my family while shopping, my grandkids at school, people in my community, or someone I don’t even know.

It could be you.
I care about that.

jmo

Perhaps I misspoke. The world has a fascination with mass killing events in general, not quite mass killers specifically - though the worrisome ones do.
I am not discounting anybody over their suffering at the hands of a mass-casualty event - whether experienced directly or otherwise. It sucks, and I really do wish it would never happen. The issue here is that no matter the amount of legislation, we will never be able to legislate morality.

Further, it is not conducive to hyper fixate on one tiny extremely rare factor/methodology of gun violence.

I too care about the victims of violence such as this. I also care equally about the victims that have differing fates.

 

[Cota332]

BBM. You don't consider 200 mass murders in under 5 months to be prevalent? I strongly disagree.

What is inspiring mass killers are the multitude of podcasts and blogs who pour fuel via twisted rhetoric so that they will "act out" their violent fantasies.

JMO

There have not been 200 mass murders this year. I believe you may be conflating the statistics from GVA with mass murders. Which, I don't quite blame you for as it has been published alongside mass murder headlines frequently recently.

 

[MyBelle]

Perhaps I misspoke. The world has a fascination with mass killing events in general, not quite mass killers specifically - though the worrisome ones do.
I am not discounting anybody over their suffering at the hands of a mass-casualty event - whether experienced directly or otherwise. It sucks, and I really do wish it would never happen. The issue here is that no matter the amount of legislation, we will never be able to legislate morality.

Further, it is not conducive to hyper fixate on one tiny extremely rare factor/methodology of gun violence.

I too care about the victims of violence such as this. I also care equally about the victims that have differing fates.

BBM. We can legislate common sense gun laws to try to keep guns out of the hands of maniacs. Some states still refuse to do it.
JMO

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

There have not been 200 mass murders this year. I believe you may be conflating the statistics from GVA with mass murders. Which, I don't quite blame you for as it has been published alongside mass murder headlines frequently recently.

Here is what the FBI considers a mass killing, and amended by Congress in 2013. https://www.congress.gov/112/plaws/publ265/PLAW-112publ265.pdf

• The shooter killed at least four people. The U.S. government revised this in 2013 to three people.
• The shooter acted alone.
• The shooting incident occurred in a public place.
• Victim counts do not include shooters who died or were wounded during an attack.

Does the shooting in Allen, TX, count as a mass shooting? Here’s how the FBI defines it

How many people have to be killed in a shooting for the government to call it a “mass killing”?

news.yahoo.com

After Saturday’s shooting at a mall in Allen, Texas, the United States has recorded 22 mass killings, which have collectively resulted in 115 deaths, according to a data base recording mass killings.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/05/07/shooting-texas-mall-is-second-deadliest-so-far-this-year/

 

[MyBelle]

There have not been 200 mass murders this year. I believe you may be conflating the statistics from GVA with mass murders. Which, I don't quite blame you for as it has been published alongside mass murder headlines frequently recently.

The GVA considers the murder of 4 or more people to be a mass murder. That doesn't count those who were injured. If you believe it is less, provide a link. Thanks.

JMO

US passes 200 mass shootings this year: nonprofit

Seven shootings over the weekend, including a massacre at a Dallas-area outlet mall, brought the total number of mass shootings in the U.S. this year over 200, according to the nonprofit Gun Violen…

thehill.com

This year, according to GVA’s tracker, there have been 202 incidents in which four or more people — other than the attacker — were shot.

In the past two years, the U.S. crossed 200 mass shootings in mid-May and, in 2020 and 2019, didn’t reach 200 until mid-to-late June. Between 2016 and 2018, the country passed 200 mass shootings in late July.

 

[Cota332]

The GVA considers the murder of 4 or more people to be a mass murder. That doesn't count those who were injured. If you believe it is less, provide a link. Thanks.

JMO

US passes 200 mass shootings this year: nonprofit

Seven shootings over the weekend, including a massacre at a Dallas-area outlet mall, brought the total number of mass shootings in the U.S. this year over 200, according to the nonprofit Gun Violen…

thehill.com

This year, according to GVA’s tracker, there have been 202 incidents in which four or more people — other than the attacker — were shot.

In the past two years, the U.S. crossed 200 mass shootings in mid-May and, in 2020 and 2019, didn’t reach 200 until mid-to-late June. Between 2016 and 2018, the country passed 200 mass shootings in late July.

Again, you’re conflating GVA’s Mass Shootings statistics vs GVA’s Mass Murder statistics. A very important distinction.
The criteria for GVA’s Mass Shootings is very low, whereas their Mass Murder compiling is slightly more accurate

 

[MyBelle]

Again, you’re conflating GVA’s Mass Shootings statistics vs GVA’s Mass Murder statistics. A very important distinction.
The criteria for GVA’s Mass Shootings is very low, whereas their Mass Murder compiling is slightly more accurate

I asked for a link. Mass shootings ARE mass murders.

JMO

 

[Cota332]

I asked for a link. Mass shootings ARE mass murders.

Mass Shootings are not Mass Murders. This has already been somewhat sorted, but I'll go ahead and re-post this

"GVA also catalogs incidents where a victim was injured by shooting or by a victim who was the subject of an armed robber or home invader. Incidents of defensive gun use, home owners who stop a home invasion, store clerks who stop a robbery, individuals who stop an assault or rape with a gun are also collected. "

The link to this specific quote can be found here.

Also here's the link to GVA's homepage, which clearly shows a large discrepancy between Mass Shootings and Mass Murders on the left-hand column.

Gun Violence Archive

www.gunviolencearchive.org

Please do keep in mind though, that there are better and more accurate alternatives to GVA's compiling, such as the FBI statistics which @BayouBelle_LA had already mentioned.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Perhaps I misspoke. The world has a fascination with mass killing events in general, not quite mass killers specifically - though the worrisome ones do.
I am not discounting anybody over their suffering at the hands of a mass-casualty event - whether experienced directly or otherwise. It sucks, and I really do wish it would never happen. The issue here is that no matter the amount of legislation, we will never be able to legislate morality.

Further, it is not conducive to hyper fixate on one tiny extremely rare factor/methodology of gun violence.

I too care about the victims of violence such as this. I also care equally about the victims that have differing fates.

Understood. I will say that I do dislike the intense focus on the killer following a mass shooting. An example is the media’s use of the word ‘manifesto’ for what, in reality, is a rambling mess of mumbo jumbo. The killers are given too much credit, like there might have been some justifiable reason for their rampage. It is really just a compilation of their grievances - created by a mentally ill injustice collector. I acknowledge that some want to read those words to help learn and gain knowledge of motivations, in aid of prevention and addressing mental illness. I support their right to know, but for me personally, it is a hard no. I don’t care what they were thinking.

As far as being an extremely rare method of gun violence, yes - when all gun violence is considered. But the random mass shootings in public areas with para-military type weapons is becoming far too common.

Mass shootings are clearly on the rise, and the level of quick and massive destruction is disturbing.

 

[MyBelle]

Understood. I will say that I do dislike the intense focus on the killer following a mass shooting. An example is the media’s use of the word ‘manifesto’ for what, in reality, is a rambling mess of mumbo jumbo. The killers are given too much credit, like there might have been some justifiable reason for their rampage. It is really just a compilation of their grievances - created by a mentally ill injustice collector. I acknowledge that some want to read those words to help learn and gain knowledge of motivations, in aid of prevention and addressing mental illness. I support their right to know, but for me personally, it is a hard no. I don’t care what they were thinking.

As far as being an extremely rare method of gun violence, yes - when all gun violence is considered. But the random mass shootings in public areas with para-military type weapons is becoming far too common.

Mass shootings are clearly on the rise, and the level of quick and massive destruction is disturbing.

BBM Very Disturbing!

 

[MyBelle]

Mass Shootings are not Mass Murders. This has already been somewhat sorted, but I'll go ahead and re-post this


The link to this specific quote can be found here.

Also here's the link to GVA's homepage, which clearly shows a large discrepancy between Mass Shootings and Mass Murders on the left-hand column.

Gun Violence Archive

www.gunviolencearchive.org

Please do keep in mind though, that there are better and more accurate alternatives to GVA's compiling, such as the FBI statistics which @BayouBelle_LA had already mentioned.

Mass shootings with more than four dead bodies ARE considered mass murders. You can try to diminish it all you want but the fact remains, they are mass shootings with violent, assault weapons of mass destruction. That's reality.

JMO

 

[Cota332]

Mass shootings with more than four dead bodies ARE considered mass murders. You can try to diminish it all you want but the fact remains, they are mass shootings with violent, assault weapons of mass destruction. That's reality.

I was specifically speaking to your claim that "there have been over 200 Mass Murders since the start of the year". That is negligently inaccurate.
The Gun Violence Archive Mass Shooting metrics include any incident that involves a firearm - justified or otherwise - which injures four or more people, and the criteria does not include fatalities.

In other words, if a guy accidentally drops a firearm, causing it to discharge, wherein a single round grazes four people with non-life threatening injuries would meet GVA's criteria as a Mass Shooting.
Another example would be if a homeowner were to shoot a group of individuals during a home invasion, causing four injuries, and no fatalities, that would also meet GVA's criteria as a Mass Shooting.

Also, the GVA adds incidents that involve Airsoft/BB/Toy guns to the tally of Mass Shootings. Direct quote from GVA's website:

"We collect incidents where Airsoft or BB guns are used AS weapons, not where they are used in general vandalism or delinquency"

Here is the exact language GVA uses to define Mass Murder vs Mass Shootings :

Mass Shooting

FOUR or more shot and/or killed in a single event [incident], at the same general time and location not including the shooter.

---------------

Mass Murder

FOUR or more killed in a single event [incident], at the same general time and location not including the shooter.

Here is a link directly to their definitions and disclaimers, upon which these quotes were sourced.

Further, the metrics clearly show that handguns are the overwhelmingly utilized weapon in Mass Shooting/Mass Murder events. Unless grandpas old Colt 1911 handgun would qualify to you as an "Assault Weapon of Mass Destruction", this appeal to emotion is moot. Citation to the data that shows handguns are far more prevalent in these incidents.