General Gun Violence/Gun Control

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  • #801
I had thought there were lots of good guys with guns in Texas. Yet we had the epic fail at Uvalde, and now Allen TX, where at least 3 vehicles were filmed backing or driving away, rather than taking down the shooter.

I agree, you would think in Texas more armed people would have been out shopping.
Still in an open air shopping mall he was able to shoot and kill 9 before he was stopped.
If he is using an AR-15 the rate of gun fire is so rapid, number of bullets held is so large, and the bullet type used is so devastating- all it takes is a minute or two.

IMO it is astonishing that there was not more loss of life! The shooters had three guns on him, and it appears he planned to walk into the store but was gunned down at the doorway by the police officer.

JMO
 
  • #802
Is your conclusion that stats have been used incorrectly, and that there is actually nothing to react to, no change is needed, people have no reason to be fearful, concerned, or react?
Are you concluding that the media has duped the public into reacting when it isn’t needed?

People are reacting already, have been since Columbine.
Dicks Sporting Goods- the largest sporting good store in the country stopped selling any kind of assault rifle in 2018 after the mass shooting at Parkland, Florida.
USA Today Article 2019 also says Dick’s destroyed $5 million worth of these guns, rather than sell them.

Your posts seems to be saying there is no rise in incidents… the stats say there is.
“Cases in which someone shoots strangers in a public place usually get the most attention. But fatal public shootings are a small fraction of all mass killings. There has been a spike in these types of killings over the past few years, but the rate of occurrence has remained relatively flat since the mid-2000s, especially considering the growth in the U.S. population over that time frame.”
You focused on the but… I focused on the spike in the past few years.

“2022 saw the second most mass killings in a single year since tracking began. The number of victims was the third highest total, only surpassed in 2017 and 2019.”

The only way to support that the “spike” described will continue Is to do nothing and see.

I think we need to act- to prevent more loss of life- kids and young men should not have murder or suicide as a leading cause of death.

“Guns surpassed car accidents as the leading cause of death for children and teenagers in 2020. The school security industry has grown into a $3.1-billion-a-year market, but our database shows that when it comes to mass killings, most children die at home.”

You focused on the ‘most children die at home’, which the article goes on to explain that they are killed by a parent using a gun at home due to domestic violence.

““A guy who kills his wife and children and sometimes then kills himself is the most common type of mass killing,” Fox said. Mass killings take place far more often in private homes than in schools, supermarkets or churches.”

I focused on the fact that this trend is increasing, more child and teen deaths are gun related.
It is not ok that the leading cause of death among children and teens is gun violence in any year in this country, no matter who is shooting them or what gun they use.
To me that is beyond unacceptable, it is disgraceful, embarrassing, and shows a general lack of care for women and children in this country. I’m Livid

And so it is clear by these stats why some groups want to take away guns. You can’t have a mass shooting without a gun.
I do not, but I do want angry men who are capable of homicide or suicide to have less easy access to the weapons they could use to kill themselves and others.

It seems the public is more tolerate of gangs or thugs killing other gangs or thugs and less tolerant of individual young men attacking strangers, in some cases their significant other, and in other cases their own children.
Why?

JMO

The conclusion was that Mass Murder incidents are far less common than they are made out to be.
Mass murders only account for only .2% of all firearm homicides. Twelve percent of that .2% are random Mass Public Murders. Roughly less than 35% of that remaining 12% from the previous .2% are Mass Murders utilizing so-called "Assault Weapons".

Mass Murder has been frequent even before Columbine, and it not unique to the US. And because there has been an uptick recently, does not mean that this trend will continue.

"And so it is clear by these stats why some groups want to take away guns. You can’t have a mass shooting without a gun.
I do not, but I do want angry men who are capable of homicide or suicide to have less easy access to the weapons they could use to kill themselves and others."
Sure, you can't have a mass shooting without a gun, though that will neither stop Mass Murders nor murders as a result of domestic violence.

I would state that the reason why the populace is very tolerant on gang violence (or at least that it's not often a news story), is because the story stops very quickly. Victims of this type of violence typically never pursue charges, name a suspect, or even talk publicly about the incident at all.
 
  • #803
I had thought there were lots of good guys with guns in Texas. Yet we had the epic fail at Uvalde, and now Allen TX, where at least 3 vehicles were filmed backing or driving away, rather than taking down the shooter.

The "good guys" tried. They were 'held back' by law enforcement.

(Briseno work across the street from the school, and initially tried to help to gunman after witnessing a car accident. Once seeing the gunman exit the vehicle with firearm in hand, he went to retrieve his own firearm) :


"Hey, what are you doing," an officer asked as Briseno began to march toward the school, he said. He recalls responding, "I'm going to go in and try to stop them."

“I told him that he’s already inside the school,” Briseno said. He said the officer told him to stay back and shut up."
 
  • #804
The conclusion was that Mass Murder incidents are far less common than they are made out to be.
Mass murders only account for only .2% of all firearm homicides. Twelve percent of that .2% are random Mass Public Murders. Roughly less than 35% of that remaining 12% from the previous .2% are Mass Murders utilizing so-called "Assault Weapons".

Mass Murder has been frequent even before Columbine, and it not unique to the US. And because there has been an uptick recently, does not mean that this trend will continue.


Sure, you can't have a mass shooting without a gun, though that will neither stop Mass Murders nor murders as a result of domestic violence.

I would state that the reason why the populace is very tolerant on gang violence (or at least that it's not often a news story), is because the story stops very quickly. Victims of this type of violence typically never pursue charges, name a suspect, or even talk publicly about the incident at all.
BBM.

The "populace" is not "very tolerant" of gang violence. The media reports it daily because it is a crime, just as mass murders are a crime.

Crime isn't okay. Mass murders by knife aren't "okay." It isn't victims who pursue charges, it is law enforcement.

JMO
 
  • #805
The "good guys" tried. They were 'held back' by law enforcement.

(Briseno work across the street from the school, and initially tried to help to gunman after witnessing a car accident. Once seeing the gunman exit the vehicle with firearm in hand, he went to retrieve his own firearm) :


"Hey, what are you doing," an officer asked as Briseno began to march toward the school, he said. He recalls responding, "I'm going to go in and try to stop them."

“I told him that he’s already inside the school,” Briseno said. He said the officer told him to stay back and shut up."
That article is a tad contradictory because of this paragraph that says Briseno initially fled. jmo

Briseno had rushed to help after the shooter's pickup crashed outside Robb Elementary School but fled after seeing the 18-year-old with an "evil look" holding a rifle.
 
  • #806
You don't need armed guards if everyone is carrying a sidearm.
Sbm for focus.

I can't imagine nor do I want to imagine a situation and society where "everyone" carries a sidearm. Children? Teens under 18? The legally insane? People suffering from dementia? People who are incapable of learning to store and use one safely? Not to mention none-of-the-above who simply don't want to carry and use a sidearm. IMO it would be a terrible state of affairs if people felt almost forced to carry a sidearm. MOO
 
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  • #807
That article is a tad contradictory because of this paragraph that says Briseno initially fled. jmo

Briseno had rushed to help after the shooter's pickup crashed outside Robb Elementary School but fled after seeing the 18-year-old with an "evil look" holding a rifle.

The article clearly states that he did not have his firearm on him. Briseno fled to avoid being shot by the gunman while he was unarmed, and returned with a firearm to attempt to neutralize the gunman.
 
  • #808
BBM.

The "populace" is not "very tolerant" of gang violence. The media reports it daily because it is a crime, just as mass murders are a crime.

Crime isn't okay. Mass murders by knife aren't "okay." It isn't victims who pursue charges, it is law enforcement.

JMO

If these incidents get reported at all, it’s usually only local news publishing a one-off article. Whereas a random Mass Murder dominates national headlines for weeks.
 
  • #809
If these incidents get reported at all, it’s usually only local news publishing a one-off article. Whereas a random Mass Murder dominates national headlines for weeks.

The mass shootings don't only make your national headlines for a week, they make international headlines also. As it should be.

So many days we wake up to hear that there has been another mass shooting in the US, on our morning news.

I am sure that some don't realise the sorrow and angst that this causes to people all over the place. Especially when we hear about the number of kids who just got shot to death at their US school. Even one child is too many.

In the western world, it is a US phenomenon. One where we simply cannot understand why so very little has been done to try to stop the ongoing gun violence.


Please don't tell me that it is because of the archaic 2nd amendment 'right'. It is just not a good enough excuse to allow all of these deaths to continue. There is no excuse.
.
 
  • #810
The mass shootings don't only make your national headlines for a week, they make international headlines also. As it should be.

So many days we wake up to hear that there has been another mass shooting in the US, on our morning news.

I am sure that some don't realise the sorrow and angst that this causes to people all over the place. Especially when we hear about the number of kids who just got shot to death at their US school. Even one child is too many.

In the western world, it is a US phenomenon. One where we simply cannot understand why so very little has been done to try to stop the ongoing gun violence.


Please don't tell me that it is because of the archaic 2nd amendment 'right'. It is just not a good enough excuse to allow all of these deaths to continue. There is no excuse.
.

Most "Mass Shootings" as defined previously in this thread typically do not make International Headlines.
 
  • #811
Most "Mass Shootings" as defined previously in this thread typically do not make International Headlines.

Which completely evades the point that we hear about the US mass shootings frequently in our morning headline news.

And does nothing to alleviate the huge mostly-unaddressed problem of the mass shootings.
 
  • #812
Which completely evades the point that we hear about the US mass shootings frequently in our morning headline news.

And does nothing to alleviate the huge mostly-unaddressed problem of the mass shootings.

US news frequently becomes world news, from politics to entertainment, the fact that US Mass Murders gets news circulation outside of the US is largely irrelevant.

The Majority of Mass Shootings in the US are a result factors like gang violence. The Gun Violence Archive even counts a "Mass shooting as a result of four or more people being injured by an airsoft gun". Thus is why I stated that most 'mass shootings' don't even make national news here in the US.
 
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  • #813
US news frequently becomes world news, from politics to entertainment, the fact that US Mass Murders gets news circulation outside of the US is largely irrelevant.

The Majority of Mass Shootings in the US are a result factors like gang violence. The Gun Violence Archive even counts a "Mass shooting as a result of four or more people being injured by an airsoft gun". Thus is why I stated that most 'mass shootings' don't even make national news here in the US.

It really doesn't matter who is committing mass shootings in the US. The bottom line is that weapons of mass murder should not be available to the general public. They serve no productive purpose in modern social life or any war-related situation. They were banned for many years and they need to be banned again. It's legal and sensible. JMO
 
  • #814
It really doesn't matter who is committing mass shootings in the US. The bottom line is that weapons of mass murder should not be available to the general public. They serve no productive purpose in modern social life or any war-related situation. They were banned for many years and they need to be banned again. It's legal and sensible. JMO

The ban (Federal Assault Weapons Ban of 1994-2004) to which you are referring was largely ineffective.

Further, the data clearly shows that Mass Murders are more often committed with handguns vs 'Assault Weapons'.
 
  • #815
The ban (Federal Assault Weapons Ban of 1994-2004) to which you are referring was largely ineffective.

Further, the data clearly shows that Mass Murders are more often committed with handguns vs 'Assault Weapons'.

When I was a kid growing up in the Midwest, you couldn't buy "machine guns" and other weapons from war. Those who did own them were frowned upon or ridiculed. I recall that being the attitude of my dad, uncles, grandfathers - that it was crazy to want to own and use a weapon like that. They all had guns, but they were used for hunting or trap shooting. It was considered inhumane (and it was illegal) to use that type of weapon to shoot game.

High capacity weapons, ammo and other accoutrement need to be re-banned. I predict it will happen soon. That includes "pistols" that are also beefed up to shoot high capacity magazines, etc. Nomenclature aside, we know what they are. JMO
 
  • #816
When I was a kid growing up in the Midwest, you couldn't buy "machine guns" and other weapons from war. Those who did own them were frowned upon or ridiculed. I recall that being the attitude of my dad, uncles, grandfathers - that it was crazy to want to own and use a weapon like that. They all had guns, but they were used for hunting or trap shooting. It was considered inhumane (and it was illegal) to use that type of weapon to shoot game.

High capacity weapons, ammo and other accoutrement need to be re-banned. I predict it will happen soon. That includes "pistols" that are also beefed up to shoot high capacity magazines, etc. Nomenclature aside, we know what they are. JMO

Supposed "Machine Guns" (automatic firearms) have been legal to own almost since their inception. They are however, highly regulated, and generally only available to somebody that has a lot of discretionary income.

That being said, there are items called "switches" that are being made that can convert ordinary semi-automatic firearms into automatic firearms. These switches are becoming all the more commonplace, although they are basically banned on a federal level.

Considering this, I cannot name one instance wherein a Random Mass Public Murder has occurred using automatic firearms. The closest example would be the Las Vegas shooting, but that was not a truly automatic firearm.



It also has been discussed that High-Capacity Mags are very seldom used in instances of Mass Murders as well. Therefore, placing a restriction specifically on magazine round counts will not alleviate the issue.
 
  • #817
Supposed "Machine Guns" (automatic firearms) have been legal to own almost since their inception. They are however, highly regulated, and generally only available to somebody that has a lot of discretionary income.

Back in the day, the only people who could legally own them were military and law enforcement. That's the way it should be.

Mincing words about types of parts, equipment, etc. is irrelevant. We know what these problematic weapons and parts are and they need to be banned with strong enforcement and penalties.

Make the job of regulating them simpler by only allowing licensed firearms dealers to handle sales. No more private sales, gun shows, internet/mail order purchases, flea markets, etc. Heavy penalties for violation, including jail time.

On the positive side, return to gun and other weapons trash buybacks to get them off the streets. Like the old days.

ETA: Also ban the posting of videos, etc. on the internet where idiots demonstrate how to make trash gun accessories from flashlights, etc. Also fines and jail time if necessary. Fill up the jails with all the people who sell guns to criminals.

You also need to provide some links for your stats.
 
  • #818
Back in the day, the only people who could legally own them were military and law enforcement. That's the way it should be.

Mincing words about types of parts, equipment, etc. is irrelevant. We know what these problematic weapons and parts are and they need to be banned with strong enforcement and penalties.

Make the job of regulating them simpler by only allowing licensed firearms dealers to handle sales. No more private sales, gun shows, internet/mail order purchases, flea markets, etc. Heavy penalties for violation, including jail time.

On the positive side, return to gun and other weapons trash buybacks to get them off the streets. Like the old days.

ETA: Also ban the posting of videos, etc. on the internet where idiots demonstrate how to make trash gun accessories from flashlights, etc. Also fines and jail time if necessary. Fill up the jails with all the people who sell guns to criminals.

You also need to provide some links for your stats.
Back in the day, I assure you, automatic arms and supposed "assault weapons" were legal.

Currently new firearms can only be sold by an Federal Firearms Licensed Dealer (FFL). The prospective gun owner then goes to the store that their weapon was shipped to. The FFL determines proof of residency with the buyer while they are at the store, and they run a FBI Background Check called NICS on ALL firearm purchases or transfers. If the buyer meets all necessary criteria, they can receive the firearm.

Private transfers is where the law gets tricky. Especially on a state-by-state basis. However, it is generally accepted that the seller remains liable for any unforeseen circumstances relating to the sale of that firearm.

Buying a firearm online and having shipped to your door is something that just does not happen.

As for the links, scroll up to my previous comments, the source data has been posted ad nauseam.
 
  • #819
When I was a kid growing up in the Midwest, you couldn't buy "machine guns" and other weapons from war. Those who did own them were frowned upon or ridiculed. I recall that being the attitude of my dad, uncles, grandfathers - that it was crazy to want to own and use a weapon like that. They all had guns, but they were used for hunting or trap shooting. It was considered inhumane (and it was illegal) to use that type of weapon to shoot game.

High capacity weapons, ammo and other accoutrement need to be re-banned. I predict it will happen soon. That includes "pistols" that are also beefed up to shoot high capacity magazines, etc. Nomenclature aside, we know what they are. JMO
Yep, which is why more states have enacted the Red Flag laws and other gun control legislation. I had never heard of these measures before last year's parade shooting.

JMO
 
  • #820
Yep, which is why more states have enacted the Red Flag laws and other gun control legislation. I had never heard of these measures before last year's parade shooting.

JMO
Red flag laws have been on the books for some time. The reason why they are controversial is because they (the government) take a citizens property without due process, a direct violation of the fifth amendment.
 
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