General Gun Violence/Gun Control

[MyBelle]

Red flag laws have been on the books for some time. The reason why they are controversial is because they (the government) take a citizens property without due process, a direct violation of the fifth amendment.

That's simply not true. A judge provides due process. The goal is to remove guns from the hands of mentally unstable people before they can harm themselves or others. It does require evidence to persuade the judge.

JMO

 

[Cota332]

That's simply not true. A judge provides due process. The goal is to remove guns from the hands of mentally unstable people before they can harm themselves or others. It does require evidence to persuade the judge.

JMO

States like CA have a system wherein the subject of the Red Flag law does not even know that they are being accused, nor what they are accused of or by whom.
The subject of the law would not be able to even proclaim their innocence.

Essentially, the individual would only be notified of accusations against them once LE shows up to their door, depriving the individual of property without any say whatsoever.

That has got to be one of the most egregious violations of the Fifth Amendment - specifically due process.

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

IMO there is just no reason for average John Q. Citizen to have an assault rifle.

 

[MyBelle]

States like CA have a system wherein the subject of the Red Flag law does not even know that they are being accused, nor what they are accused of or by whom.
The subject of the law would not be able to even proclaim their innocence.

Essentially, the individual would only be notified of accusations against them once LE shows up to their door, depriving the individual of property without any say whatsoever.

That has got to be one of the most egregious violations of the Fifth Amendment - specifically due process.

The person isn't denied due process because the Judge signs the order, which is temporary. We'll never agree because you obviously prioritize the right to own and carry a gun over the rights of others to public safety.

JMO

"Red Flag Law" in California – Here’s How It Works

California's red flag law allows employers, co-workers, teachers, and family to seek a court order to remove firearms from a person whom they perceive as potentially dangerous. These are known as “gun violence restraining orders,” or (GVROs). They seek temporarily to remove firearms from the...

www.shouselaw.com

Under California law, if a judge grants a GVRO, he can do the following:
confiscate a person’s firearm for a period of time, provided that there is convincing evidence that suggests the person would use it to cause injury.

The person whose gun has been confiscated can ask the court to remove the order. The person can do this once a year. A judge will remove the order if he/she believes there is no longer any convincing evidence. Though after a court hearing, the court can extend the protective order if the person continues to pose a significant danger.5

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

The ban (Federal Assault Weapons Ban of 1994-2004) to which you are referring was largely ineffective.

Further, the data clearly shows that Mass Murders are more often committed with handguns vs 'Assault Weapons'.

This!

Banning assault weapons (whatever that means) won’t be a deterrent. The criminals aren’t going to throw their hands up and surrender. They will just go for whatever they can get their hands on. Handguns will be easier to conceal. You won’t see what’s coming. IMO

 

[Cota332]

The person isn't denied due process because the Judge signs the order, which is temporary. We'll never agree because you obviously prioritize the right to own and carry a gun over the rights of others to public safety.

JMO

"Red Flag Law" in California – Here’s How It Works

California's red flag law allows employers, co-workers, teachers, and family to seek a court order to remove firearms from a person whom they perceive as potentially dangerous. These are known as “gun violence restraining orders,” or (GVROs). They seek temporarily to remove firearms from the...

www.shouselaw.com

Under California law, if a judge grants a GVRO, he can do the following:
confiscate a person’s firearm for a period of time, provided that there is convincing evidence that suggests the person would use it to cause injury.

The person whose gun has been confiscated can ask the court to remove the order. The person can do this once a year. A judge will remove the order if he/she believes there is no longer any convincing evidence. Though after a court hearing, the court can extend the protective order if the person continues to pose a significant danger.5

Temporary or not, just because a judge signs an order does not constitute due process by any means. Depriving an individual of property without prior indictment by a grand jury goes directly against the wording of the Bill of Rights.

By that logic, I suppose we're all just guilty until the government deems us innocent

I personally do not prioritize any single right over another.

 

[MyBelle]

I value human life far more than I do property rights. Mentally unstable people should not own guns until they can prove to the satisfaction of the judge that they are no longer a threat to themselves and other human beings. This article was written a year ago. Several more states have enacted common sense gun laws since then. Bravo to them!

JMO

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/06/07/red-flag-gun-laws-constitution-due-process/

The crux of the political debate has therefore focused on due process — although due-process challenges to red-flag laws have fared no better. Nor should they have. A prime complaint about red-flag laws is that they allow an order to be issued before the gun owner has an opportunity to contest the evidence, but the Supreme Court has long recognized that there are “extraordinary situations where some valid governmental interest is at stake that justifies postponing the hearing until after the event,” as Justice John Marshall Harlan II wrote in a 1971 case.

Examples include restraining orders filed by one domestic partner against another, civil commitments for mental illness and the temporary removal of children from parental custody in emergency situations (for instance, when there are credible allegations of abuse). In cases like these, delaying urgent action until after a full hearing can lead to catastrophic outcomes.

Given that the Constitution allows emergency action to temporarily remove a person’s child before a full hearing, it’s hard to argue that it prohibits emergency action to temporarily remove a person’s guns. Quite simply, the Constitution does not require society to wait until the trigger is pulled.

 

[SouthAussie]

“America is broken. Instead of addressing the cause of the carnage, we’re talking about how to survive a massacre like it’s a damn tornado.”

‘America is broken’: FBI criticized for mass-shooting survival video

 

[AngTxGal]

Red flag laws have been on the books for some time. The reason why they are controversial is because they (the government) take a citizens property without due process, a direct violation of the fifth amendment.

RedFlag laws have been on the books in some states for some time.
I looked over the website for these Gun Violence Restraining Order petitions in CA
Here is a website that explains the due process. What isn’t here are specific examples of behavioral evidence that someone is a danger to themselves or others.

What RedFlags cannot do is prevent a person from obtaining a gun from a family member, friend, or garage sale. In Texas a person can buy and sale firearms at yard sales.

JMO

 

[Mama-dukes]

This is a list memorial of people who have died from guns victim and predator also just saying

National Gun Violence Memorial

Learn who is killed with guns in the U.S. every day.

gunmemorial.org

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Most "Mass Shootings" as defined previously in this thread typically do not make International Headlines.

I’m in Canada and read the front page stories of a few international newspapers every day. The US mass shootings make international headlines.

In the same way if I read ‘..a car bomb has killed…’ I can guess the geographic region. When I read ‘…mass shooter armed with an AK—…’, my immediate thought is it’s probably in the US if it shows up on my news feed.

It pains me to say that, and Canada is not immune to the problem. Our own gun deaths are rising, but so is the government response.

 

[AngTxGal]

“America is broken. Instead of addressing the cause of the carnage, we’re talking about how to survive a massacre like it’s a damn tornado.”

‘America is broken’: FBI criticized for mass-shooting survival video

Yes, I agree that it feels crazy to see teachers and children practice how to survive a mass shooting. It also feels crazy to watch schools being redesigned and new ones built to reduce loss of life.
There are backpacks, chairs, table tops to be tilted, window glass, and wall structures designed to be bullet proof now highly advertised for schools, parents, teachers.

New teachers are young, idealistic, at an age where they feel immortal, and then they take a group of 20 + children through an active shooter drill, lock out or lock down.

In ALL other shootings people save family, get out and away to seek safety.
In school shootings teachers follow the protocols they’ve been given and are responsible for the children.
And teachers and children are locked in a building, hiding, not attempting to escape.

Let that sink in just a minute, it is all a sickening

JMO

 

[housewife]

I have a police scanner app on my phone in case something happens at my child’s school.
I realize this is a silly coping mechanism for my anxiety. But it’s a relief to know the sirens aren’t going toward the school.

IMHO I feel Sandy Hook changed the way I view the world.
Now I look at large crowds of people gathered together and think “That’s not safe, what if someone had a gun?”
I also feel boxed in and trapped when at the movie theater, and try to sit near the exit.

 

[SouthAussie]

Serbia had their first (ever) mass school shooting last week. Almost immediately followed by another mass shooting two days later. Serbia has a deeply entrenched gun culture, with many weapons in the hands of the public.


This is the country's reaction.

- Tens of thousands of people took to the streets in Belgrade in a protest rally, behind a banner saying "Serbia Against Violence"
- They demanded the resignation of key political figures
- They demanded a shutdown of TV stations and tabloids they say are promoting violence
- They demanded better security
- They demanded a shutdown of pro-govt newspapers that stoke tensions with articles targeting political dissidents
- “We want safe schools, streets, villages and cities for all children”
- The Education Minister resigned
- Police started a one month amnesty for people to hand in illegal guns (first day, 1,500 guns were turned in)
- Police started checks of hundreds of thousands of people who have registered guns, at the end of this process about 30-40,000 people will be allowed to keep their guns
- Penalties for illegal weapons will be doubled
- 1,000 police officers will be placed in schools
- Proposal for a space in schools where children with anger or sadness can get help on how to deal with their emotions, among their peers (as they listen to peers more than adults)


Something, in one of these linked articles, that highlights the affect of violent video games. After the school shooting, comments were appearing on social media from other children ... "8 kills, nice" .... “8/0/0 he has a good score” ... "King"

‘Normalisation of violence’: What led to Serbia mass shootings?
After two mass shootings, Serbians rally against violence

 

[AngTxGal]

I have a police scanner app on my phone in case something happens at my child’s school.
I realize this is a silly coping mechanism for my anxiety. But it’s a relief to know the sirens aren’t going toward the school.

IMHO I feel Sandy Hook changed the way I view the world.
Now I look at large crowds of people gathered together and think “That’s not safe, what if someone had a gun?”
I also feel boxed in and trapped when at the movie theater, and try to sit near the exit.

I’m do not live fearful of such events for myself, where I live is quite safe. Of course I use common sense with regard to where I go, when, and being aware of my surroundings. Those are actions I took before Columbine- as a young woman.
I do warn my kids and try to prepare them for such events. They are young adults in that stage of life where they feel immortal, so that worry won’t end until they are prob 30. My kids are in school out of state- so I too pay attention to crime in the areas where they live.
Mom and Dad always did such for all five of us kids, calling to check on us due to an ice storm, car accident, bank robbery, or escaped convict- morbid but par for parental worry.

JMO

 

[housewife]

I am lucky to live in an affluent area, which is quite "safe", but we still have citizens with depression, stresses, domestic violence, alcohol/pill addiction, lack of impulse control, and suicidal thoughts. These issues are not discussed/hidden because the neighborhood prioritizes the "appearance" of a happy family.

I agree, situational awareness was always necessary.
But my awareness is evolving beyond that.
I've never felt unsafe from gunfire at my grocery store before, but now I do.
I've never driven on the highway and felt unsafe from gunfire, but now I do.
I've never worried about the vulnerability of students gathered in large groups for roll call outside the school. But now I do.

My dad is a marksman and taught us all to shoot. He emphasized doing things properly because the. tool. is. deadly. If you couldn't respect and follow the rules, you didn't get to shoot. He was the teacher and would regulate who was responsible enough to use the tool. I naively assumed this was how all people are taught before they purchase their killing tool. I wish our country enforced our gun control laws effectively.

I don't remember feeling unsafe from the threat of gunfire everywhere when I was younger. I don't know what has changed since then. Was it Reagan when he demolished mental health care? Is it our fear-mongering news entertainment that plays on people's emotions? Do we just have more guns in our country now than we did previously?

 

[MyBelle]

I am lucky to live in an affluent area, which is quite "safe", but we still have citizens with depression, stresses, domestic violence, alcohol/pill addiction, lack of impulse control, and suicidal thoughts. These issues are not discussed/hidden because the neighborhood prioritizes the "appearance" of a happy family.

I agree, situational awareness was always necessary.
But my awareness is evolving beyond that.
I've never felt unsafe from gunfire at my grocery store before, but now I do.
I've never driven on the highway and felt unsafe from gunfire, but now I do.
I've never worried about the vulnerability of students gathered in large groups for roll call outside the school. But now I do.

My dad is a marksman and taught us all to shoot. He emphasized doing things properly because the. tool. is. deadly. If you couldn't respect and follow the rules, you didn't get to shoot. He was the teacher and would regulate who was responsible enough to use the tool. I naively assumed this was how all people are taught before they purchase their killing tool. I wish our country enforced our gun control laws effectively.

I don't remember feeling unsafe from the threat of gunfire everywhere when I was younger. I don't know what has changed since then. Was it Reagan when he demolished mental health care? Is it our fear-mongering news entertainment that plays on people's emotions? Do we just have more guns in our country now than we did previously?

Many of the mass shootings have been in affluent areas. Family members are usually quite aware of the signs their loved one is instable. The Sandy Hook school shooting was in an affluent area. The shooter's mother and police were aware the shooter was mentally unstable and had made threats. Apparently the mother was unwilling to rid her home of the guns.

State legislatures have to want to do something to protect the public from gun violence. What strikes me is the hypocrisy from politicians who claim to be "pro-life" and have enacted strict laws to limit women's reproductive rights yet they refuse to enact common sense gun legislation so that families and LE can temporarily remove the guns from the homes of the mentally unstable. imo

Sandy Hook Shooter's Mom Was 'Scared of Him' According to FBI Documents

NEWTOWN, Conn. -- Police were warned that the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooter had threatened to kill his mother and students before the 2012 massacre, according to newly revealed FBI documents.

www.wltx.com

 

[10ofRods]

States like CA have a system wherein the subject of the Red Flag law does not even know that they are being accused, nor what they are accused of or by whom.
The subject of the law would not be able to even proclaim their innocence.

Essentially, the individual would only be notified of accusations against them once LE shows up to their door, depriving the individual of property without any say whatsoever.

That has got to be one of the most egregious violations of the Fifth Amendment - specifically due process.

I'd like to read more about this, as this is news to me. Do you have a link?

TIA.

 

[10ofRods]

I am lucky to live in an affluent area, which is quite "safe", but we still have citizens with depression, stresses, domestic violence, alcohol/pill addiction, lack of impulse control, and suicidal thoughts. These issues are not discussed/hidden because the neighborhood prioritizes the "appearance" of a happy family.

I agree, situational awareness was always necessary.
But my awareness is evolving beyond that.
I've never felt unsafe from gunfire at my grocery store before, but now I do.
I've never driven on the highway and felt unsafe from gunfire, but now I do.
I've never worried about the vulnerability of students gathered in large groups for roll call outside the school. But now I do.

My dad is a marksman and taught us all to shoot. He emphasized doing things properly because the. tool. is. deadly. If you couldn't respect and follow the rules, you didn't get to shoot. He was the teacher and would regulate who was responsible enough to use the tool. I naively assumed this was how all people are taught before they purchase their killing tool. I wish our country enforced our gun control laws effectively.

I don't remember feeling unsafe from the threat of gunfire everywhere when I was younger. I don't know what has changed since then. Was it Reagan when he demolished mental health care? Is it our fear-mongering news entertainment that plays on people's emotions? Do we just have more guns in our country now than we did previously?

Reagan wasn't all by himself in dismantling mental healthcare, but certainly led the way.

He began as Governor of California and the State legislature stood by and did nothing. I lived close to one of the hospitals that he closed. It was quite the local topic of conversation and immediately, we had all these homeless people. It wasn't just criminals in the mental hospitals, of course. Families got conservatorships over their very mentally ill family members and the hospital (where my own mom briefly worked) was in need of resources, but it was far superior to most jails. Now, we are begging psychiatrists to take hourly jobs at our jail, and resorting to care by psychiatric nurses because, well, there are not enough psychiatrists in California. All of the severe criminally insane went to the remaining two state hospitals, one of which I worked in, as a researcher.

Then, there's the fact that today's gun owners do not act like your dad. My dad was marksman as well, and actually started shooting for a living when he was 12. Even so, his own brother (lifelong gun owner) took a gun off the wall at his house; the two brothers went outside and we all heard the Boom! My uncle was sheepish. But since they had followed the rules they had taught us, growing up, my uncle (who pulled the trigger in response to my dad's "Are you sure that's unloaded?" question) was aiming out at a tree on his large, rural property. I too was taught safe gun handling. I can't go to the local gun range, though, as it is CHAOS there IMO and not too long ago, someone was wounded. People are killed, on occasion, at these for-profit gun ranges. One of them is now closed, after an accidental, non-lethal shooting (and a huge lawsuit).

My dad, btw, never trusted me with a gun outside his close supervision (he was wise, I was a scatter-brained kid, would certainly be classified as ADD in today's world). He

That being said, even kids who have been safe gun handling can still decide to kill themselves. People who are about to kill themselves sometimes decide to kill others, before they go (it's called "extensive suicide" in some academic articles). When I was doing my post-doc in psychiatric research, it was drilled into me that anyone who is suicidal should also be considered a risk for turning to homicide (and vice versa). "Not killing another human is a universal tabu" is the upshot (and exceptions are solemnly made for war and the death penalty, in many cultures.

Thanks everyone, for all your excellent discussion of this topic. We've dismantled mental health care and many states have made gun ownership easy and carrying guns everywhere is possible in many states. Personally, I do not visit those states, my tourist dollars go elsewhere.

Statistics right now are saying that something like 80% of "America's youth" (I don't remember the exact age bracket) are depressed. Half of American homes (at least) have both guns and ammo.

imo

 

[SouthAussie]

A quarter of Americans now believe guns are the number one public health threat, according to new polling.

26% of Americans believe access to guns is the top threat to public health (it was 17% in Feb, 3 months ago).
Around 25% believe opioids and fentanyl are the top concern.
Only 3% of Americans in the Axios/Ipsos survey listed Covid-19 as their top public health concern (it was 6% in Feb).

Gun violence is top public health concern for quarter of Americans – poll

After several mass shootings this year, 26% of Americans believe guns are the number one public health threat

www.theguardian.com