George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[CrimeAway]

The ME said the levels were consistent with the amount a person with chronic pain would be taking. That's a very general statement because someone who has been prescribed fentanyl for six months would be taking a lower dose than someone who has been prescribed fentanyl for three years. Imo

Which ME said that and when please?

I'm not sure there is an article that states it was a "therapeutic" level. There are many levels so we would have to know the specific dose to compare it to what was found in Floyd's system.

Today the toxicologist said that it was common for intoxicated driving suspects who used fentanyl to have higher levels in their system than Floyd did. He said the level of norfentanyl in his system was not consistent with a typical fentanyl overdose.

He said that last year, in cases where NMS labs tested blood from a person who had taken fentanyl, the average amount was 16.8 nanograms per milliliter, about 50% higher than what was found in Floyd's blood.

Since Floyd was a chronic user, I would imagine he initially was prescribed the starting dose for percocet. What his tolerance was at the time of his death we don't know. Imo

I have linked several sources, including those from peer reviewed medical journals that state a therapeutic blood level of fentanyl is 1-3 ng/mL. Here is another one:

A Review of the Use of Fentanyl Analgesia in the Management of Acute Pain in Adults | Anesthesiology | American Society of Anesthesiologists

I did also see that Dr Isenschmidt, the toxicologist from NMS labs state that his lab saw an average level of 16.8 ng/ml of fentanyl in the Post Mortem (after death) samples, where fentanyl was present.

He also stated that of the (suspected) DUI samples, where fentanyl was present, his lab found an average level of 9.59 ng/ml.

YouTube
(~23:30)

I totally agree that we have no way of knowing Mr Floyd's tolerance.

Overdose levels do seem to vary a lot, and of course the presence of other drugs, especially benzodiazepines, will have be a factor in that, as will tolerance IMO.

Fatalities caused by novel opioids: a review

 

[kittythehare]

My SIL is a manager of a coal mine who have random drug and alcohol tests for workers and he tells me that THC can be detected up to two weeks after using.

Longer, I'd say... I think it's for a longer period of time... stored in fat cells...

 

[Gibbo214]

Well, the three experts testified. They discussed it in great detail.
I have no reason to assume any of them was lying.
I accept their testimonies, they have seen all the evidence. We have not.

I am agreeing with you, but people are making their own judgements based on googling.

 

[Gibbo214]

Longer, I'd say... I think it's for a longer period of time... stored in fat cells...

Probably, but the tests this company employs probably are not that thorough.

 

[MsBetsy]

My SIL is a manager of a coal mine who have random drug and alcohol tests for workers and he tells me that THC can be detected up to two weeks after using.

Or 30 days in urine for chronic users and up to 3 months in a hair strand. Imo

 

[Gibbo214]

Or 30 days in urine for chronic users and up to 3 months in a hair strand. Imo

Yes, but that is with chronic use. I am just speaking about an employee tested, not one who has failed multiple tests.

 

[BoyThatsWeird]

Little off topic but up until now I'd say Dr Tobin has been the most beneficial witness for the prosecution and Sgt Stiger (LAPD) has been the least benificial. Dr. Tobin spoke with confidence and seemed to have an answer for all questions. I sensed that Sgt Stiger was there for the pay day and 15 minutes of fame and wasn't prepared. I believe Nelson had the same read of Sgt Stiger and that's why he questioned him much longer than any witness because he "smelt blood"

 

[Gibbo214]

Little off topic but up until now I'd say Dr Tobin has been the most beneficial witness for the prosecution and Sgt Stiger (LAPD) has been the least benificial. Dr. Tobin spoke with confidence and seemed to have an answer for all questions. I sensed that Sgt Stiger was there for the pay day and 15 minutes of fame and wasn't prepared. I believe Nelson had the same read of Sgt Stiger and that's why he questioned him much longer than any witness because he "smelt blood"

I think that his unassuming demeanor and his Irish accent appeared trustworthy.

 

[missy1974]

I don't remember using the term "therapeutic levels," so I'm not sure what you mean.

I think it's getting confusing because we are discussing different things. The expert witnesses discussed the levels of both drugs during the trial, but earlier I also mentioned what Dr. Baker initially said when the preliminary autopsy report first came out. It would really help if I could find the article since I'm sure I read it here. I thought for sure he compared the amount in his system to the amount a "chronic pain patient" would take. I thought that was a very broad statement and misleading. That's all. The only reason I brought it up again is because I was asked for the source. Maybe he didn't say it but I'm pretty sure somebody did. Imo

Fair enough MsBetsy! And I think there is some confusion with what was said about Meth and fentanyl. I DO think it was said that the amount of meth could be therapeutic (I think he said for ADHD?), but I'm not 100% on that.

This might help to understand at least the fentanyl patch and can be found on page 16 of the autopsy report here :

After application of a fentanyl transdermal preparation (patch), serum fentanyl concentrations are reported to be in the following ranges within 24 hours:
25 mcg/hour patch: 0.3 - 1.2 ng/mL
50 mcg/hour patch: 0.6 - 1.8 ng/mL
75 mcg/hour patch: 1.1 - 2.6 ng/mL
100 mcg/hour patch: 1.9 - 3.8 ng/mL

In comparison, GF's fentanyl level was 11.0 ng/mL. I think the ME, Baker, is testifying tomorrow, I'm sure we will learn more

 

[MsBetsy]

Which ME said that and when please?



I have linked several sources, including those from peer reviewed medical journals that state a therapeutic blood level of fentanyl is 1-3 ng/mL. Here is another one:

A Review of the Use of Fentanyl Analgesia in the Management of Acute Pain in Adults | Anesthesiology | American Society of Anesthesiologists

I did also see that Dr Isenschmidt, the toxicologist from NMS labs state that his lab saw an average level of 16.8 ng/ml of fentanyl in the Post Mortem (after death) samples, where fentanyl was present.

He also stated that of the (suspected) DUI samples, where fentanyl was present, his lab found an average level of 9.59 ng/ml.

YouTube
(~23:30)

I totally agree that we have no way of knowing Mr Floyd's tolerance.

Overdose levels do seem to vary a lot, and of course the presence of other drugs, especially benzodiazepines, will have be a factor in that, as will tolerance IMO.

Fatalities caused by novel opioids: a review

View attachment 291992 View attachment 291996

I think it was Dr. Baker. The article is from May but it has been posted here a few times. I summarized some of what he said about the preliminary autopsy upthread.

Actually I just remembered someone linked it for me in a response to a question I had. So if I can find that post I can find the article! It might not be until morning though. I meant to go to sleep an hour ago.

 

[kittythehare]

I think that his unassuming demeanor and his Irish accent appeared trustworthy.

I think it was his precision
https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1380365602372599810?s=20

 

[CrimeAway]

Forensic toxicologist Daniel Isenschmid testified that the levels of fentanyl and methamphetamine found in George Floyd’s system were less than the amount present in DUI cases on average.

He testified that the average fentanyl level in the DUI samples NMS labs received, where fentanyl was present was 9.59 ng/ml, and the median level was 5.3 ng/ml.

This is less than the 11 ng/ml in Mr Floyd's antemortem hospital blood sample.

https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...FjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3YZg28hqpr4e20bDc_ub9_

 

[CrimeAway]

I think it was his precision
https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1380365602372599810?s=20

I agree!
His precision and thoroughly detailed testimony was very compelling IMO.

 

[kittythehare]

I agree!
His precision and thoroughly detailed testimony was very compelling IMO.

I was quite startled by it.
I found yesterday, day before very tiring and difficult to maintain my concentration.
The three experts provided astoundingly good and solid testimony today (yesterday/whichever)
It was as if a light went on in a very dark place.
I was glad for his family because this must be so very difficult for them.
He asked for a glass of water, they wouldn't give it to him...

 

[Wild Rose]

Today's testimony was very damagingNow two aspects of this case are distilling out IMOO. Intent. The other day, we heard so much testimony from the defense about how DC's actions were aligned with how he was continually reassessing the event and his response. IMO, the bystanders did all the reassessment for him. Someone telling him what the neck hold was physically doing and someone that worked as an EMT for his city telling him that the individual was dying with his actions. DC did not reassess what he was doing IMO. Today, an expert witness showed how DC used his brute strength on an incapacitated victim. very damaging as to intent.

 

[MsBetsy]

Fair enough MsBetsy! And I think there is some confusion with what was said about Meth and fentanyl. I DO think it was said that the amount of meth could be therapeutic (I think he said for ADHD?), but I'm not 100% on that.

This might help to understand at least the fentanyl patch and can be found on page 16 of the autopsy report here :

After application of a fentanyl transdermal preparation (patch), serum fentanyl concentrations are reported to be in the following ranges within 24 hours:
25 mcg/hour patch: 0.3 - 1.2 ng/mL
50 mcg/hour patch: 0.6 - 1.8 ng/mL
75 mcg/hour patch: 1.1 - 2.6 ng/mL
100 mcg/hour patch: 1.9 - 3.8 ng/mL

In comparison, GF's fentanyl level was 11.0 ng/mL. I think the ME, Baker, is testifying tomorrow, I'm sure we will learn more

Yes, that is what I referred to the other day. I was wondering which dose was equivalent to the dose found in Floyd's system, and what it is or how it compares to the amount in the slow release patch.

Then there was another study that someone linked about people who overdosed with the patch and some had as much as 24 ng/ml in their system. I can't find that one either.

 

[kittythehare]

Key takeaways from the Derek Chauvin trial in George Floyd's death, Day 9

 

[CrimeAway]

I think it was Dr. Baker. The article is from May but it has been posted here a few times. I summarized some of what he said about the preliminary autopsy upthread.

Actually I just remembered someone linked it for me in a response to a question I had. So if I can find that post I can find the article! It might not be until morning though. I meant to go to sleep an hour ago.

I searched, but all I found so far was an article from one of the local Fox stations that linked to this document

https://static.fox9.com/www.fox9.com/content/uploads/2020/08/Exhibit-4.pdf

You have a good night

 

[missy1974]

Yes, that is what I referred to the other day. I was wondering which dose was equivalent to the dose found in Floyd's system, and what it is or how it compares to the amount in the slow release patch.

Then there was another study that someone linked about people who overdosed with the patch and some had as much as 24 ng/ml in their system. I can't find that one either.

I'm not sure if one can be compared to the other. Even at the levels GF was at, there is no way to know whether that was from 1 pill, 5 pills, 10 pills, 1 pill 2 hours ago, 2 pills 10 minutes ago... because they were street drugs. IMO We know he had some earlier, because it had metabolized. But the guy that testified today even agreed that there is no way to know when it was all taken, and compared it to drinking a beer, it starts metabolizing, then drinking another one.

Anyway, on to tomorrow and the ME. Not looking forward to it, but looking forward to it.

 

[kittythehare]

Fact check link.
PolitiFact - No, autopsy doesn’t say George Floyd died of overdose

Two autopsies were completed after Floyd died in May 2020, following what video footage shows was roughly nine minutes spent pinned under Chauvin’s knee. The two reports found different causes of death, but neither ruled that Floyd died because of an overdose.

An independent autopsy ordered by Floyd’s family ruled Floyd’s death a homicide. The two doctors who conducted the autopsy concluded that Floyd died of asphyxiation, or suffocation.

The Hennepin County medical examiner’s office also ruled that Floyd died in a homicide. But it said the cause of his death was "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law-enforcement subdual restraint, and neck compression," which occurred while Floyd was being "restrained."