George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[Gibbo214]

I understand what you are saying, and again, I don't necessarily disagree.

But, looking at it through their eyes and their perspective, he was saying he couldn't breath before he was in that position on the ground.

So if he already couldn't breath before he was on the ground, why do you think that was? (was he in a panic? anxiety? the drugs? adrenaline? )

Or was he lying about not being able to breath at that point.... but then telling the truth when he actually couldn't breath when he was on the ground?

He had had Covid 19. It has been established that it has long term effects in numerous people.

 

[mickey2942]

Again, as @mickey2942 says, there were enough of them and he was handcuffed and they were armed.
A positional change or the drink of water he requested would have reinflated his lungs and he would have survived, most likely IMO

I have tried to keep an open mind during this trial. Granted, we have only seen one side so far. But the defense is going to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat or some other magic to change my position. If the jurors think this way...

Not so long ago, I participated in a "focus group". It was about a local issue, that was going to trial. We were presented with the information, and as a group, via "Zoom" had to decide which side we believed. During the presentation, we flipped back and forth. It was an interesting experience. I wonder if Chauvin's attorney tried different things with a focus group, to decide how to defend DC.

 

[Gibbo214]

I have tried to keep an open mind during this trial. Granted, we have only seen one side so far. But the defense is going to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat or some other magic to change my position. If the jurors think this way...

Not so long ago, I participated in a "focus group". It was about a local issue, that was going to trial. We were presented with the information, and as a group, via "Zoom" had to decide which side we believed. During the presentation, we flipped back and forth. It was an interesting experience. I wonder if Chauvin's attorney tried different things with a focus group, to decide how to defend DC.

Yes, I can see that, but was the case you are speaking of, one which has been so historically polarised?

 

[missy1974]

Where they trained that 'if they can talk, they can breathe'. I wonder if a medical professional taught them that.
People with life threatening asthma attacks come into emergency rooms saying 'I can't breathe'. They can give their names and what medications they are on. It would be terrible if they were told 'If you can speak, you can breathe, you must be lying'. I am sure everyone would agree that that would be monstrous.

Yes, the training officer testified to that last week IIRC Its the one that the defense intends on recalling as their own witness.

I was rewatching Dr. Toobin tonight too, and this is brought up in cross...

Toobin is talking specifically about hyperventilation in his report... but it indicates that even trained medical doctors have the idea that if you can talk, you can breath and misdiagnose patients. So if trained doctors cannot always see the signs of someone that actually can't breath... I just don't know ...

Around the 13:15 mark

 

[missy1974]

He had had Covid 19. It has been established that it has long term effects in numerous people.

But the State and their experts have said that he didn't exhibit any symptoms of Covid, and seem to discount covid all together. The defense has implied it at times IIRC

I don't know if there is a way that they could see those long term effects on autopsy or not. I don't recall anything in the autopsy, but that was fairly early on and we were still learning about Covid. Maybe there was something there that they didn't know at the time.

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes, the training officer testified to that last week IIRC Its the one that the defense intends on recalling as their own witness.

I was rewatching Dr. Toobin tonight too, and this is brought up in cross...

Toobin is talking specifically about hyperventilation in his report... but it indicates that even trained medical doctors have the idea that if you can talk, you can breath and misdiagnose patients. So if trained doctors cannot always see the signs of someone that actually can't breath... I just don't know ...

Around the 13:15 mark

Yes, but he said hyperventilating is different from not being able to breathe. He also said a person having trouble breathing can be talking one minute but 10 seconds later they could be dead.

 

[MsBetsy]

But the State and their experts have said that he didn't exhibit any symptoms of Covid, and seem to discount covid all together. The defense has implied it at times IIRC

I don't know if there is a way that they could see those long term effects on autopsy or not. I don't recall anything in the autopsy, but that was fairly early on and we were still learning about Covid. Maybe there was something there that they didn't know at the time.

That's true, but the officers wouldn't have known that at the time. Floyd told them three times he just had covid and they ignored him. I think by then it was known that shortness of breath was a symptom.

 

[Gibbo214]

But the State and their experts have said that he didn't exhibit any symptoms of Covid, and seem to discount covid all together. The defense has implied it at times IIRC

I don't know if there is a way that they could see those long term effects on autopsy or not. I don't recall anything in the autopsy, but that was fairly early on and we were still learning about Covid. Maybe there was something there that they didn't know at the time.

BBM. Shortness of breath is one of the key symptoms of Covid and long term Covid effects.
And the end of May was not really early in the Covid crisis.

 

[CrimeAway]

Yes, it was misleading because they made it sound like he "ruled out" asphyxiation specifically because there were no physical signs, and they focused more on his health conditions and "intoxicants" rather than on the method of police restraints.

I think that is what enraged the family and the protestors even more. Initially they began protesting and rioting after seeing the video, and because all of the officers had not been charged.

Imo

I agree regarding what I perceive to be a misunderstanding by some of the public about the preliminary findings.

Absence of PHYSICAL evidence of a cause of death on autopsy, does not categorically rule that out, IMO.

Also, evidence (from other sources), of one potential cause of death, does not rule out other possible causes of death. IMO

That's why we have a trial, to present all the evidence, (or as much as was collected @kittythehare ), IMO.

Did anyone else have a history teacher that drilled into them, primary sources, secondary sources, examine your sources?

 

[missy1974]

Yes, but he said hyperventilating is different from not being able to breathe. He also said a person having trouble breathing can be talking one minute but 10 seconds later they could be dead.

I understand it was different, and that is said by Dr. Toobin, BUT, it was also included in Dr. Toobin's own report, he felt it was important enough to put it into his report to show that even medical doctors can misdiagnose when a patient says they cannot breath.

Why do you think he included it in his report if it is completely irrelevant?

 

[Gibbo214]

Yes, the training officer testified to that last week IIRC Its the one that the defense intends on recalling as their own witness.

I was rewatching Dr. Toobin tonight too, and this is brought up in cross...

Toobin is talking specifically about hyperventilation in his report... but it indicates that even trained medical doctors have the idea that if you can talk, you can breath and misdiagnose patients. So if trained doctors cannot always see the signs of someone that actually can't breath... I just don't know ...

Around the 13:15 mark

What Dr Tobin said, would be initially. No doctor would disbelieve a patient who kept saying over and over that he could not breathe.

 

[missy1974]

BBM. Shortness of breath is one of the key symptoms of Covid and long term Covid effects.
And the end of May was not really early in the Covid crisis.

I do not disagree with you.

But from testimony, not one State witness has said he showed that symptom.

Are you saying that maybe that symptom or long term effect just happened to show up at the moment that he was being put into the squad car?

 

[CrimeAway]

Again, as @mickey2942 says, there were enough of them and he was handcuffed and they were armed.
A positional change or the drink of water he requested would have reinflated his lungs and he would have survived, most likely IMO

All MOO

If it turned out that GF was actively overdosing, or in the midst of a medical crisis, and succumbed to that, then it would be tragic.

If the officers had not held him in that position, and had rolled him etc., I don't think we would all be here now.

That's what is so awful about this whole case. It was a whole chain of bad decisions that led to a tragic outcome.

What were the officers thinking, how were they trained, what was DC's prior experience of suspects "crying wolf"?

Obviously, we've read some very concerning about DC's prior complaints, but was he appropriately reprimanded and retrained for previous relevant conduct?

If he had such a problematic past, why was he a field training officer?

Why did the MPD have rookie officers riding together?

Should DC have reasonably known that his actions in restraining GF, could be fatal?

All MOO

 

[CrimeAway]

Well, it could explain why the prosecution would not grant him immunity. We know why he and his attorney don't want him to testify and why the defense wants to question him. He's also a valuable witness to the prosecution.

I guess it depends on whether or not everyone agrees on the questions Nelson wants to ask. I really don't understand all of it either. I'm assuming it's not good for the jury to keep hearing a witness plead the fifth to every question.

I dont quite understand this. Shouldn't it be if LE think that he has committed a crime, he should be charged with a crime?

I don't know how it works, either. Try reading those first three pages of the document and see what you think. The prosecution seems to have an advantage if they do not grant him immunity in that example but I don't know if it applies to this case.

I understand what you are saying, and again, I don't necessarily disagree.

But, looking at it through their eyes and their perspective, he was saying he couldn't breath before he was in that position on the ground.

So if he already couldn't breath before he was on the ground, why do you think that was? (was he in a panic? anxiety? the drugs? adrenaline? )

Or was he lying about not being able to breath at that point.... but then telling the truth when he actually couldn't breath when he was on the ground?

Here's the video of Hall and his lawyer appearing before the court to quash the subpoena:

ETA: What the prosecutor says at 14:25 is VERY Interesting IMO;

"Our dog in the fight is a fair trial for Mr. Chauvin, and, ONE TRIAL, and what we can't have is this invocation in front of the jury,.."

 

[CrimeAway]

But the State and their experts have said that he didn't exhibit any symptoms of Covid, and seem to discount covid all together. The defense has implied it at times IIRC

I don't know if there is a way that they could see those long term effects on autopsy or not. I don't recall anything in the autopsy, but that was fairly early on and we were still learning about Covid. Maybe there was something there that they didn't know at the time.

Slightly OT, but may/may not be relevant.

IMO, we are still only seeing the tip of the iceberg on post Covid infection effects (or sequelae). There have been (I believe) reported effects on various organs and body systems. In particular, as well as shortness of breath, particularly on exertion, there have been reports of blood vessel and clotting abnormalities, neurological issues, as well as exercise intolerance, fatigue etc. IMO.

Healthcare Workers

Post-acute COVID-19 syndrome | Nature Medicine

Post COVID-19 sequelae: venous thromboembolism complicated by lower GI bleed

Again, this may or may not be a factor in this case.

 

[Gibbo214]

A five day ICU or non acute hospitalization is considered lengthy. Insurance or not,
Moo...

Yeah? In other countries, not so, but our health care does not depend on insurance.

 

[CrimeAway]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

I really appreciate that the discussion this evening has been rational, reasonable, and polite (IMO). Even though we may see things differently, and disagree on aspects of the case, I think it's great if we can share information respectfully.
I also value posters who take the time to share links and sources for their information. Thank you all, and thank you @Sillybilly, @JerseyGirl and others for these threads.

 

[Sillybilly]

I do not disagree with you.

But from testimony, not one State witness has said he showed that symptom.

Are you saying that maybe that symptom or long term effect just happened to show up at the moment that he was being put into the squad car?

I get short of breath when talking with my Covid mask on and frequently say to others "God, I can't breathe with this thing on". One of my grandkids has panic attacks and says "I can't breathe". Obviously both of us are talking and breathing but feeling like our breathing is constricted .. doesn't mean either of us is faking what we are experiencing when we say we can't breathe.

 

[MsBetsy]

I understand it was different, and that is said by Dr. Toobin, BUT, it was also included in Dr. Toobin's own report, he felt it was important enough to put it into his report to show that even medical doctors can misdiagnose when a patient says they cannot breath.

Why do you think he included it in his report if it is completely irrelevant?

I think he included it in his report to show that it's dangerous to assume that if a person is talking they can't be having trouble breathing. He used the example of missing a diagnosis in a patient who is hyperventilating. He was talking about speech and breathing as being two different things, but I didn't hear him say even doctors think you can't be having trouble breathing if you are talking.

Either way, I don't think he meant that Doctors fail to treat patients who say they can't breathe because they don't believe them.

 

[missy1974]

I get short of breath when talking with my Covid mask on and frequently say to others "God, I can't breathe with this thing on". One of my grandkids has panic attacks and says "I can't breathe". Obviously both of us are talking and breathing but feeling like our breathing is constricted .. doesn't mean either of us is faking what we are experiencing when we say we can't breathe.

I've experienced anxiety, it is not fun.

I'm not saying that I think he was lying when he said he couldn't breath before there was even a struggle getting him in the car. I don't know if in that moment he truly couldn't breath, felt like he couldn't breath, or was lying.

If he couldn't breath or felt like that before there was even a struggle, was there a medical reason for that? And if there was a medical reason for that, did that medical reason disappear the minute the struggle started or did it continue? and would that medical reason continue regardless of what happened?

I still have a problem with them not helping or moving him at the point that it seems he is clearly not breathing. I don't know that Chauvin knew that for certain, but I would think so. I have a lot of questions. In the beginning, I thought this was a pretty simple case and would be no issues to convict. I no longer feel that way. All JMO