George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[SouthAussie]

That headline is somewhat misleading.
Dr Baker's conclusion is:
In Baker's final report after watching the videos, he ruled Floyd's death a homicide caused by "law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression."

Very misleading, considering the testimony of the forensic toxicologist who tested George's blood.


A forensic toxicologist at the laboratory that tested George Floyd’s blood said it was common for intoxicated driving suspects who used fentanyl to have higher levels of the drug in their systems than Mr. Floyd did when he died.

Of more than 2,300 blood samples from intoxicated drivers that N.M.S. Labs tested last year — all of which were in cases where the driver survived and tested positive for fentanyl — about a quarter of the people had fentanyl levels that were the same or higher than Mr. Floyd’s, Dr. Isenschmid said.

Methamphetamine was also found in Mr. Floyd’s system, though Dr. Isenschmid said the levels were so low that it likely had no intoxicating effect.

A toxicologist’s testimony challenged claims by Derek Chauvin’s lawyer that George Floyd overdosed on fentanyl.

 

[Algo214]

This is looking like case closed, guilty as charged.
I'm leaning 2nd degree as I believe they have proved the intent to commit serious bodily harm after today; Not guilty is out of the picture after today since every doctor that has testified has agreed the fentanyl and meth levels were not fatal (not even near should I really say) which was really the only realistic defense they had.
But I'll remain open to what is presented going forwards so take it as JMO for now.

 

[MsBetsy]

Someone replied to my comment on the last thread and I tried to answer but it closed. I think it was CrimeAway?

Anyway, the OP was about the amount of fentanyl being higher than the therapeutic dose. The ME stated that the amount of fentanyl found in his system was equivalent to that of a chronic pain patient.

The starting dose for a fentanyl patch is 12 micrograms per hour (slow release) and the maximum dose is 100 micrograms. Obviously the highest dose would be for a patient who has very high tolerance. I could be wrong, but the starting dose doesn't seem to be all that higher than the amount in Floyd's system. So I'm not sure how that could be interpreted as fatal.

Also, patients who take fentanyl are also monitored by a doctor, but it is usually once a month to make sure it's effective and there are no negative symptoms.

Imo

 

[Tom_Servo]

This is looking like case closed, guilty as charged.
I'm leaning 2nd degree as I believe they have proved the intent to commit serious bodily harm after today; Not guilty is out of the picture after today since every doctor that has testified has agreed the fentanyl and meth levels were not fatal (not even near should I really say) which was really the only realistic defense they had.
But I'll remain open to what is presented going forwards so take it as JMO for now.

Completely disagree. I think he's guilty, of manslaughter. Not even close to murder at all.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Sitting and watching mainly- big questions in our court are- the size of tube used by EMT- and the ease of insertion and lack of restriction when inserted. The time delay of EMT and the assumption he is dead from minute of pick up (absolutely unqualified in UK to declare as dead and must be treated as alive, which they obviously didn’t in this case)- IMO there are numerous failings and picking one person is just avoiding guilt and culpability from lots of places. Still waiting for a my own opinion on DC- but very clear failings left, right and centre!
Medic is in the house (not me though!)

 

[MsBetsy]

This is looking like case closed, guilty as charged.
I'm leaning 2nd degree as I believe they have proved the intent to commit serious bodily harm after today; Not guilty is out of the picture after today since every doctor that has testified has agreed the fentanyl and meth levels were not fatal (not even near should I really say) which was really the only realistic defense they had.
But I'll remain open to what is presented going forwards so take it as JMO for now.

Yes, the ME stated that the fentanyl in Floyd's system was equivalent to that of a chronic pain patient. This is misleading because he didn't say which therapeutic dose he was referring to. It could be anywhere from 12 to 100 micrograms. Obviously the highest dose would be reserved for someone who already has an extremely high tolerance. I'm thinking the amount found in Floyd's system was closer to the starting dose. I don't think the jury has been swayed by the defense constantly bringing up the possibility of overdose. From the sound of it, they seemed much more interested in learning more about asphyxiation from neck and back restraints. Imo

 

[Ruthbullock]

Yes, the ME stated that the fentanyl in Floyd's system was equivalent to that of a chronic pain patient. This is misleading because he didn't say which therapeutic dose he was referring to. It could be anywhere from 12 to 100 micrograms. Obviously the highest dose would be reserved for someone who already has an extremely high tolerance. I'm thinking the amount found in Floyd's system was closer to the starting dose. I don't think the jury has been swayed by the defense constantly bringing up the possibility of overdose. From the sound of it, they seemed much more interested in learning more about asphyxiation from neck and back restraints. Imo

I’m going to pipe in here, we have discussed tolerance numerous times and the more you use the higher your tolerance- that is absolutely correct- it relates to the amount needed to trigger a high. Your body regardless of length of time, amount has a point it can’t cope anymore that becomes an overdose- this is the figure used by doctors as the fatal amount- your tolerance can become closer and closer to this point before you become high, but can’t exceed it as it will kill

 

[MsBetsy]

Sitting and watching mainly- big questions in our court are- the size of tube used by EMT- and the ease of insertion and lack of restriction when inserted. The time delay of EMT and the assumption he is dead from minute of pick up (absolutely unqualified in UK to declare as dead and must be treated as alive, which they obviously didn’t in this case)- IMO there are numerous failings and picking one person is just avoiding guilt and culpability from lots of places. Still waiting for a my own opinion on DC- but very clear failings left, right and centre!
Medic is in the house (not me though!)

Why do you think they didn't treat him as if he were alive? CPR was performed the minute he was loaded into the ambulance and was continued for 45 minutes up until the time the ER doctor declared him dead. They also gave him life saving medicines through an IV. The only people who didn't try to save his life were the police officers. Paramedics had no idea Floyd was in need of emergency medical attention until police upgraded the call to a code 3. As soon as it was upgraded they turned their emergency lights on and rushed to the scene. Even after they got to the hospital and paramedics were so bewildered as to how he ended up in that condition, Lane still didn't tell them they had been kneeling on his neck and back.

 

[MsBetsy]

I’m going to pipe in here, we have discussed tolerance numerous times and the more you use the higher your tolerance- that is absolutely correct- it relates to the amount needed to trigger a high. Your body regardless of length of time, amount has a point it can’t cope anymore that becomes an overdose- this is the figure used by doctors as the fatal amount- your tolerance can become closer and closer to this point before you become high, but can’t exceed it as it will kill

Yes, but the medical experts did not say it was a fatal amount. It's hard to believe that Floyd just happened to suffer an overdose the exact time Chauvin was kneeling on his neck.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Why do you think they didn't treat him as if he were alive? CPR was performed the minute he was loaded into the ambulance and was continued for 45 minutes up until the time the ER doctor declared him dead. They also gave him life saving medicines through an IV. The only people who didn't try to save his life were the police officers. Paramedics had no idea Floyd was in need of emergency medical attention until police upgraded the call to a code 3. As soon as it was upgraded they turned their emergency lights on and rushed to the scene. Even after they got to the hospital and paramedics were so bewildered as to how he ended up in that condition, Lane still didn't tell them they had been kneeling on his neck and back.

Because they stated he was dead in court- which they can’t do in the UK and is made very clear. They obviously can believe they are dead in the US as they stated it under oath????

 

[SouthAussie]

IMO there are numerous failings and picking one person is just avoiding guilt and culpability from lots of places.

So far, there is one person on trial who had his knee on George's neck for over 9 minutes. Soon there will be others on trial who also restricted George's breathing ability.

It is not the EMTs fault that these officers had restricted George's breathing to the point where he died. Nor is it their fault that the officers did not start CPR at the scene. Remembering that George was non-responsive for almost 4 minutes at the scene while under Chauvin's knee.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Because they stated he was dead in court- which they can’t do in the UK and is made very clear. They obviously can believe they are dead in the US as they stated it under oath????

ETA- we also don’t have scoop and move- in fact even when helicoptered out, they must be stable at the scene before being moved- that isn’t negotiable even mid motorway! Hillsborough, numerous terrorist events- our paramedics are second to none!!!!!

 

[ACE422]

I’m going to pipe in here, we have discussed tolerance numerous times and the more you use the higher your tolerance- that is absolutely correct- it relates to the amount needed to trigger a high. Your body regardless of length of time, amount has a point it can’t cope anymore that becomes an overdose- this is the figure used by doctors as the fatal amount- your tolerance can become closer and closer to this point before you become high, but can’t exceed it as it will kill

I’ve seen opioid overdoses. Lethargic, limp, unable to be aroused, unable to respond verbally, no response to painful stimuli, unconscious, decreased respirations then ceasing respirations - GF displayed none of these until he was pinned to the ground for several minutes. MOO

 

[SouthAussie]

Just bumping this again, as it helps to see exactly how long George was non-responsive (and still under the knee, no CPR, no rolling George into the recovery position).


Prosecutor Jerry Blackwell broke it down:

4 minutes and 45 seconds as Floyd cried out for help

53 seconds as he flailed due to seizures

and 3 minutes and 51 seconds as Floyd was non-responsive.

A week of compelling and potentially devastating testimony at Derek Chauvin's murder trial - ABC17NEWS

 

[Ruthbullock]

So far, there is one person on trial who had his knee on George's neck for over 9 minutes. Soon there will be others on trial who also restricted George's breathing ability.

It is not the EMTs fault that these officers had restricted George's breathing to the point where he died. Nor is it their fault that the officers did not start CPR at the scene. Remembering that George was non-responsive for almost 4 minutes at the scene while under Chavin's knee.

Yet GH stated they should have been there- so it isn’t the norm, the delay. If they were anticipating an earlier response from the EMT- I can believe they were waiting and waiting and waiting ..:. I don’t think
It’s right in so many ways and am grateful to be elsewhere where this wouldn’t even be a court case- but it’s not a single person failure and it will be emphatically awful if it’s brushed under the carpet as so! Erasing all the other failures.

 

[Ruthbullock]

I’ve seen opioid overdoses. Lethargic, limp, unable to be aroused, unable to respond verbally, no response to painful stimuli, unconscious, decreased respirations then ceasing respirations - GF displayed none of these until he was pinned to the ground for several minutes. MOO

Missing your reference to my post, feel free to share

 

[SouthAussie]

Yet GH stated they should have been there- so it isn’t the norm, the delay. If they were anticipating an earlier response from the EMT- I can believe they were waiting and waiting and waiting ..:. I don’t think
It’s right in so many ways and am grateful to be elsewhere where this wouldn’t even be a court case- but it’s not a single person failure and it will be emphatically awful if it’s brushed under the carpet as so! Erasing all the other failures.

IMO they shouldn't have relied on the EMTs appearance, if that is what they were doing. They were trained in safety protocols, CPR, etc.

If those EMTs were stuck in a traffic jam, had a vehicle accident, were otherwise disposed, all of our police officers (around the world) are fully trained to keep a person's heart pumping with chest compressions ... until help can arrive, or they can get the person to the hospital themselves.

Ambulances don't just appear because you want them to. There are many cases of ambulance delays.

 

[jjs]

Ambulances don't just appear because you want them to. There are many cases of ambulance delays.

RSBM (our ambulance actually hit a deer on the highway during an emerge last week!)

 

[Ruthbullock]

IMO they shouldn't have relied on the EMTs appearance, if that is what they were doing. They were trained in safety protocols, CPR, etc.

If those EMTs were stuck in a traffic jam, had a vehicle accident, were otherwise disposed, all of our police officers (around the world) are fully trained to keep a person's heart pumping with chest compressions ... until help can arrive, or they can get the person to the hospital themselves.

Ambulances don't just appear because you want them to. There are many cases of ambulance delays.

Absolutely, but it would appear we are the exception as even the crowd /firefighter believe if they had called for an EMT and it hadn’t arrived by that point, they were lying. So whilst it is the norm for you and I- it was not the usual time delay for the police or the firefighter in that location.

 

[Leilei]

He was suffering an overdose when he was removed from the car(dragonwok side)- IMO (hubbies) he saw the signs in the footage. Doesn’t bode well for everything that happened afterwards though.

I just don't see an overdose IMO. I see a frantic, scared man. Opiate overdose just doesn't look like that (have had a couple of people in my life OD on that stuff, and they were pretty much nodding off). Autopsy experts will give us more info, hopefully. And yes, what happened after is the most important thing - OD or no, he should have been given medical aide if there was even a slight suspicion.