George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[missy1974]

I thought that, until I heard his face was smushed on the back seat and left blood- don’t take drugs, but if intoxicated could visualise how someone could bash themselves trying to manoeuvre themselves- certainly wouldn’t indicate all there at that point.

This reminded me of a comment from the last witness today... he said something like 'he was responding appropriately to the police'... it's comments like that, that make me go uggh.

I think that both things can be true... he could be on drugs and even at OD levels AND what DC did can be criminal. JMO But it gives me pause when an expert won't recognize it or discounts it all together, again, JMO.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

The police were there and they saw foam coming from his mouth. MOO

 

[Ruthbullock]

This reminded me of a comment from the last witness today... he said something like 'he was responding appropriately to the police'... it's comments like that, that make me go uggh.

I think that both things can be true... he could be on drugs and even at OD levels AND what DC did can be criminal. JMO But it gives me pause when an expert won't recognize it or discounts it all together, again, JMO.

Absolutely agree

 

[kittythehare]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> on foam coming from his mouth. He was foaming at the mouth just two months before and was treated for a drug overdose. He spent 5 days in the hospital.

Things that could cause foaming at the mouth are drug overdoses, seizures and rabies. My money is on a drug overdose and no other reason. MOO

His blood toxicology reports no evidence of an overdose, in fact, quite the opposite, he had merely a therapeutic level of fentanyl , just the same as a patient taking a prescribed drug, the drug being fent
George Floyd Showed Signs of Brain Injury 4 Minutes Before Officer Relented, Expert Says

 

[Deleted member 39678]

IMO Nelson is doing an excellent job.

Yes. He can't win on every point. All he needs to do is show reasonable doubt. It is not game over by any means. JMO

 

[BeachSky]

The defendant is on trial for causing George's death. No-one is on trial for not saving George's life.

Respectfully snipped
BBM
This!!!!

 

[Tom_Servo]

So...I commented last night about Chauvins small stature and said I could toss my 135lb son off me easily. Tonight I had him strap Velcro around my wrists and laid on the ground like GF. I still tossed him off like nothing. Then had my wife and daughter put all their weight on my hips and legs and it was harder but still tossed my son. Im 5'10" @175lbs, I'm n0t a big guy but in reasonable shape. Obviously smaller than GF.

Obviously my test is anecdotal but whoever said weight doesn't matter is wrong IMHO. Just try it and you'll see someone Chauvins size is no match for a guy like GF. I stand by my previous observation.

 

[In vino veritas]

I agree with you on foam coming from his mouth. He was foaming at the mouth just two months before and was treated for a drug overdose. He spent 5 days in the hospital.

Things that could cause foaming at the mouth are drug overdoses, seizures and rabies. My money is on a drug overdose and no other reason. MOO

It will be interesting to see if defense gets tox reports from GFs overdose from the incident two months prior to his death to compare drug levels at that time to the levels in the autopsy report.

 

[Katerz]

He wasn’t alert- even a gun didn’t get him out of the car or to comply quickly. He was not all there at that point and it declined quickly.

He seemed all there and alert to me to know that he had a gun pointed in his face.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

So...I commented last night about Chauvins small stature and said I could toss my 135lb son off me easily. Tonight I had him strap Velcro around my wrists and laid on the ground like GF. I still tossed him off like nothing. Then had my wife and daughter put all their weight on my hips and legs and it was harder but still tossed my son. Im 5'10" @175lbs, I'm n0t a big guy but in reasonable shape. Obviously smaller than GF.

Obviously my test is anecdotal but whoever said weight doesn't matter is wrong IMHO. Just try it and you'll see someone Chauvins size is no match for a guy like GF. I stand by my previous observation.

I'm too old to try something like that. LOL

 

[kittythehare]

He seemed all there and alert to me to know that he had a gun pointed in his face.

https://twitter.com/PaulBlume_FOX9/status/1380242680488161280?s=20

 

[kittythehare]

So...I commented last night about Chauvins small stature and said I could toss my 135lb son off me easily. Tonight I had him strap Velcro around my wrists and laid on the ground like GF. I still tossed him off like nothing. Then had my wife and daughter put all their weight on my hips and legs and it was harder but still tossed my son. Im 5'10" @175lbs, I'm n0t a big guy but in reasonable shape. Obviously smaller than GF.

Obviously my test is anecdotal but whoever said weight doesn't matter is wrong IMHO. Just try it and you'll see someone Chauvins size is no match for a guy like GF. I stand by my previous observation.

https://twitter.com/WCCO/status/1380203630997950470?s=20

 

[Deleted member 39678]

It will be interesting to see if defense gets tox reports from GFs overdose from the incident two months prior to his death to compare drug levels at that time to the levels in the autopsy report.

If it's favorable to the State maybe they will bring it in. But that would mean that they would have to admit a prior drug overdose to the jury. JMO

 

[kittythehare]

If it's favorable to the State maybe they will bring it in. But that would mean that they would have to admit a prior drug overdose to the jury. JMO

But how would admission of a prior drug OD influence the events that led to his death?
He did not die of a drug overdose.

 

[kittythehare]

Something unusual is happening in Derek Chauvin's trial - CNN

 

[shotgun09]

If it's favorable to the State maybe they will bring it in. But that would mean that they would have to admit a prior drug overdose to the jury. JMO

It was admitted in court already, that GF had a recent hospitalization due to an OD by his girlfriend Courteney when she was on the witness stand. A few questions were allowed about the OD, but certainly not his medical record info. Whether that gets brought up later on remains to be seen

 

[kittythehare]

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1380213979394494467?s=20

 

[CrimeAway]

Yes, the ME stated that the fentanyl in Floyd's system was equivalent to that of a chronic pain patient. This is misleading because he didn't say which therapeutic dose he was referring to. It could be anywhere from 12 to 100 micrograms. Obviously the highest dose would be reserved for someone who already has an extremely high tolerance. I'm thinking the amount found in Floyd's system was closer to the starting dose. I don't think the jury has been swayed by the defense constantly bringing up the possibility of overdose. From the sound of it, they seemed much more interested in learning more about asphyxiation from neck and back restraints. Imo

I'm really trying to wrap my head around these drug concentrations and their significance.

My understanding is that therapeutic concentrations of fentanyl for analgesia (pain) would be 1-3 ng/ml nanograms (ng) per milliliter (ml) of blood. Mr Floyd had a level of 11 ng/ml in his hospital blood sample.
A level of 11 ng/ml is consistent with levels seen in fatal overdoses IMO

https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...FjAKegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0X9pBvKyWEL1v_BRlAmsqc

Multiple Fentanyl Overdoses — New Haven, Connecticut, June 23, 2016

I cannot find any traditional tablet version of fentanyl in the US, however, there are buccal (cheek), sub-lingual (under tongue) and transmucosal oral preparations available. The therapeutic dosages of these seems to vary on the exact drug delivery design, but I read of dosages between 100 and 1600 mcg.

Actiq, Fentora (fentanyl transmucosal) dosing, indications, interactions, adverse effects, and more

It seems that fentanyl patches have a much lower dose, but that is because they are dosed at mcg/HOUR. Therapeutic dosages are between 12-100 mcg/HR

Actiq, Fentora (fentanyl transmucosal) dosing, indications, interactions, adverse effects, and more

If one of the tablets from the Mercedes SUV was 0.397g and both the BCA expert Breahna Giles and the expert from NMS Labs, Susan Neith that the tablet(s) contained 1% fentanyl, that would be 0.00397g, or 3970mcg (IMO).

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Assuming that 0.397g is an average weight of these tablets, and the 3 partial tablets found in the back of the squad car (ex 51, 52, 53) weigh a total of 0.297g (0.269+0.019+0.009 approx), then we can postulate that Mr Floyd may have consumed a minimum of 0.100g (0.397-0.297 = 0.100) of a tablet. If the agreed upon fentanyl potency is 1%, that = 0.001g or 1,000 mcg fentanyl.
If there were the remains of 2 separate tablets found in the back of the squad car, the amount of fentanyl consumed (by my calculations), could be even higher, up to 3700mcg, or even 4980mcg.
If that is correct, those values would be way higher than the highest therapeutic analgesia dose I have found, which is 1600mcg. Even 1,000 mcg is in the upper ranged of therapeutic dosages IMO.

It's conjecture at this point, but I wonder if it raises reasonable doubt.

I haven't even started on methamphetamine yet.

Let's hope I'm never on a jury!

Edited several times for clarity, grammar and to show my math working. Brain is now frazzled for the evening!

 

[kittythehare]

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I'm really trying to wrap my head around these drug concentrations and their significance.

My understanding is that therapeutic concentrations of fentanyl for analgesia (pain) would be 1-3 ng/ml nanograms (ng) per milliliter (ml) of blood. Mr Floyd had a level of 11 ng/ml in his hospital blood sample.
A level of 11 ng/ml is consistent with levels seen in fatal overdoses IMO

https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...FjAKegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0X9pBvKyWEL1v_BRlAmsqc

Multiple Fentanyl Overdoses — New Haven, Connecticut, June 23, 2016

I cannot find any traditional tablet version of fentanyl in the US, however, there are buccal (cheek), sub-lingual (under tongue) and transmucosal oral preparations available. The therapeutic values of these seems to vary on the exact drug delivery design, but I read of dosages between 100 and 1600 mcg.

Actiq, Fentora (fentanyl transmucosal) dosing, indications, interactions, adverse effects, and more

It seems that fentanyl patches have a much lower dose, but that is because they are dosed at mcg/HOUR. Therapeutic dosages are between 12-100 mcg/HR

Actiq, Fentora (fentanyl transmucosal) dosing, indications, interactions, adverse effects, and more

If one of the tablets from the Mercedes SUV was 0.397g and both the BCA expert Breahna Giles and the expert from NMS Labs, Susan Neith that the tablet(s) contained 1% fentanyl, that would be 0.00397g, or 3970mcg (IMO).

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Assuming that 0.397g is an average weight of these tablets, and the 3 partial tablets found in the back of the squad car (ex 51, 52, 53) weigh a total of 0.297g (0.269+0.019+0.009 approx), then we can postulate that Mr Floyd may have consumed a minimum of 0.100g of a tablet. If the agreed upon fentanyl potency is 1%, that = 0.001g or 1,000 mcg fentanyl.
If there were the remains of 2 separate tablets found in the back of the squad car, the amount of fentanyl consumed (by my calculations), could be even higher, up to 3700mcg, or even 4980mcg.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1380284855796269056?s=20

 

[mom2chloe]

I understand from today’s testimony that GF’s blood and urine were both tested for drugs and to determine the amounts within his system. Although we know the various pills were tested for both fentanyl and methamphetamine do we know if they were tested for other substances? Were there any other drugs found within the pills? Was there Suboxone within his system too because they also found those in the car. Mixing Suboxone with any other opioid could be deadly.
Were any other post mortem body fluids tested for evidence of hooping or what not?
We know GF’s car mates claimed they couldn’t rouse him to get out of dodge so would that indicate an OD? He became more argumentative and less compliant after being awakened?
Where is Chauvin’s body cam leading up to being dislodged and being found beneath the car? There simply has to be something there even if it has nothing substantial to offer.

Looking forward to more testimony and toxicology information. I’ve been impressed with all the lawyers, witnesses and the Judge. I don’t think I have ever witnessed such a collectively impressive group in a criminal trial.

Interested to see what comes of Maurice and his testimony. He has already proven himself to be a disloyal friend but it’s looking likely that he was selling and dealing poor quality street drugs on top of the other shenanigans. IMO I also hope the Feds are looking at him for counterfeiting as well as drugs. He is also responsible for this nightmare. IMO