George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[kittythehare]

4 things caused George Floyd's oxygen deprivation leading to his death
https://twitter.com/TheLeadCNN/status/1380272897076436992?s=20

 

[kittythehare]

George Floyd died from lack of oxygen, not fentanyl, says expert

 

[CrimeAway]

4 things caused George Floyd's oxygen deprivation leading to his death
https://twitter.com/TheLeadCNN/status/1380272897076436992?s=20

The trial is not even half way through yet, the defense hasn't even presented their case.

I have watched all the testimony this far, including that of Dr. Tobin, who I thought was very impressive.

I am keeping an open mind <modsnip>

 

[kittythehare]

The trial is not even half way through yet, the defense hasn't even presented their case.

I have watched all the testimony this far, including that of Dr. Tobin, who I thought was very impressive.

I am keeping an open mind<modsnip>

Okay.
Try BBC
These, BTW are permitted MSM sites on this platform.
George Floyd died from lack of oxygen, not fentanyl, says expert

 

[missy1974]

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I'm really trying to wrap my head around these drug concentrations and their significance.

My understanding is that therapeutic concentrations of fentanyl for analgesia (pain) would be 1-3 ng/ml nanograms (ng) per milliliter (ml) of blood. Mr Floyd had a level of 11 ng/ml in his hospital blood sample.
A level of 11 ng/ml is consistent with levels seen in fatal overdoses IMO

https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...FjAKegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0X9pBvKyWEL1v_BRlAmsqc

Multiple Fentanyl Overdoses — New Haven, Connecticut, June 23, 2016

I cannot find any traditional tablet version of fentanyl in the US, however, there are buccal (cheek), sub-lingual (under tongue) and transmucosal oral preparations available. The therapeutic dosages of these seems to vary on the exact drug delivery design, but I read of dosages between 100 and 1600 mcg.

Actiq, Fentora (fentanyl transmucosal) dosing, indications, interactions, adverse effects, and more

It seems that fentanyl patches have a much lower dose, but that is because they are dosed at mcg/HOUR. Therapeutic dosages are between 12-100 mcg/HR

Actiq, Fentora (fentanyl transmucosal) dosing, indications, interactions, adverse effects, and more

If one of the tablets from the Mercedes SUV was 0.397g and both the BCA expert Breahna Giles and the expert from NMS Labs, Susan Neith that the tablet(s) contained 1% fentanyl, that would be 0.00397g, or 3970mcg (IMO).

Assuming that 0.397g is an average weight of these tablets, and the 3 partial tablets found in the back of the squad car (ex 51, 52, 53) weigh a total of 0.297g (0.269+0.019+0.009 approx), then we can postulate that Mr Floyd may have consumed a minimum of 0.100g of a tablet. If the agreed upon fentanyl potency is 1%, that = 0.001g or 1,000 mcg fentanyl.
If there were the remains of 2 separate tablets found in the back of the squad car, the amount of fentanyl consumed (by my calculations), could be even higher, up to 3700mcg, or even 4980mcg.
If that is correct, those values would be way higher than the highest therapeutic analgesia dose I have found, which is 1600mcg. Even 1,000 mcg is in the upper ranged of therapeutic dosages IMO.

It's conjecture at this point, but I wonder if it raises reasonable doubt.

I haven't even started on methamphetamine yet.

Let's hope I'm never on a jury!

thanks crime!!!! I have read some of the things you shared from the autopsy report so didn't understand how GF's levels could be considered 'therapeutic'. Thank you for taking the time to do that

 

[kittythehare]

Respiratory Expert: George Floyd Died Of Asphyxia As A Result Of Chauvin's Actions | HuffPost

Floyd was being “squashed” between the hard ground and the officers as they pushed his handcuffs high into his back, Tobin says. Such actions would “totally interfere with central features of how we breathe,” he added.


“It’s like the left side is in a vise,” Tobin testified. “It’s totally been pushed in, squeezed in from each side, from the street at the bottom and from the way that the handcuffs are manipulated.”

“It’s as if a surgeon has gone in and removed the lung ― not quite, but along those lines,” Tobin added. “Very little opportunity for him to be able to get any air to move into the left side of his chest.”

 

[CrimeAway]

Okay.
Try BBC
These, BTW are permitted MSM sites on this platform.
George Floyd died from lack of oxygen, not fentanyl, says expert

I'm quite familiar with the BBC, though I feel that their reporting lacks depth and is less impartial than in previous years.

I like to hear all available evidence before I determine important matters, and I hope that the jury does too

 

[MsBetsy]

thanks crime!!!! I have read some of the things you shared from the autopsy report so didn't understand how GF's levels could be considered 'therapeutic'. Thank you for taking the time to do that

The ME said the levels were consistent with the amount a person with chronic pain would be taking. That's a very general statement because someone who has been prescribed fentanyl for six months would be taking a lower dose than someone who has been prescribed fentanyl for three years. Imo

 

[Gibbo214]

The ME said the levels were consistent with the amount a person with chronic pain would be taking. That's a very general statement because someone who has been prescribed fentanyl for six months would be taking a lower dose than someone who has been prescribed fentanyl for three years. Imo

And in my opinion, I am not sure that any of us have the specialised education to analyse drug dosages.

 

[CrimeAway]

Speaking of the media and it's lack of quality, I got a kick out of Judge Cahill stripping the Daily Mail of media credentials

https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12646/Order03242021.pdf

 

[kittythehare]

I'm quite familiar with the BBC, though I feel that their reporting lacks depth and is less impartial than in previous years.

I like to hear all available evidence before I determine important matters, and I hope that the jury does too

The expert testimony to which I have linked is actually all the available evidence we have to date.
For example
Like Tobin, Smock said Floyd could be seen during his arrest suffering an anoxic seizure, which occurs when there’s a fatal injury to the brain from a lack of oxygen.

“You can hear the handcuffs shake, and you’ll see the body camera shake when he has an anoxic seizure,” Smock testified.

Smock also dismissed suggestions that Floyd might have died of a drug overdose, noting that his methamphetamine level was “very low” and he didn’t exhibit certain symptoms of fentanyl overdose, such as constricted pupils. He also said there was “absolutely” no evidence that Floyd died of a heart attack.


The doctor who treated Floyd the night he died in May 2020 testified on Monday. He said that, given the information he had at the time of Floyd’s death, he believed Floyd “likely” died of asphyxia.

Respiratory Expert: George Floyd Died Of Asphyxia As A Result Of Chauvin's Actions | HuffPost

Later Thursday, Dr. Bill Smock, the police surgeon for the Louisville Metro Police Department, testified that he believed Floyd died of “positional asphyxia,” which Smock described as “a fancy way of saying he died because he had no oxygen left in his body.”

 

[Gibbo214]

Speaking of the media and it's lack of quality, I got a kick out of Judge Cahill stripping the Daily Mail of media credentials

https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12646/Order03242021.pdf

The DM and the BBC are miles apart in quality journalism.

 

[CrimeAway]

The ME said the levels were consistent with the amount a person with chronic pain would be taking. That's a very general statement because someone who has been prescribed fentanyl for six months would be taking a lower dose than someone who has been prescribed fentanyl for three years. Imo

Can you show me which ME said that and where? I'm not trying to doubt you or be argumentative, but I truly don't recall that (and it seems counter to all the other sources I have found).

 

[CrimeAway]

The DM and the BBC are miles apart in quality journalism.

Oh believe me, I know!!!!

 

[MsBetsy]

And in my opinion, I am not sure that any of us have the specialised education to analyse drug dosages.

Yes, even the toxicologist said the results "do not show when a specific amount was taken." It depends on so many factors, I don't think we will ever know when or how much he took. Which is one reason why I don't think the jury will be convinced he died from a drug overdose. It may have been a contributing factor, but all the prosecution has to prove is that Chauvin's actions were a substantial causal factor in Floyd's death. Imo

 

[kittythehare]

Can you show me which ME said that and where? I'm not trying to doubt you or be argumentative, but I truly don't recall that (and it seems counter to all the other sources I have found).

There you go
April 8, 2021, 3:36 p.m. ET6 hours ago
6 hours ago
John Eligon

Reporting from Kansas City
Dr. Daniel Isenschmid testified that the amount of methamphetamine found in George Floyd was consistent with a dose of prescription meth. He called it a low amount. The defense has argued that Floyd died in part of a drug overdose.

George Floyd Showed Signs of Brain Injury 4 Minutes Before Officer Relented, Expert Says

 

[branmuffin]

I’ve seen the timings and watched the same testimony as well. That response would be unheard of here- but the prosecution witness herself stated they would have arrived by that point (and whilst I think she reacted dramatically, I do believe her). If nothing else the expectations of arrival of emergency services needs analysing as that wasn’t just one service, but two.

If the victim had been shot rather than suffocated, the timing of the arrival of the EMT's would have no bearing on the culpability of the accused.

 

[kittythehare]

Yes, even the toxicologist said the results "do not show when a specific amount was taken." It depends on so many factors, I don't think we will ever know when or how much he took. Which is one reason why I don't think the jury will be convinced he died from a drug overdose. It may have been a contributing factor, but all the prosecution has to prove is that Chauvin's actions were a substantial causal factor in Floyd's death. Imo

And here's the meth level

 

[MsBetsy]

Can you show me which ME said that and where? I'm not trying to doubt you or be argumentative, but I truly don't recall that (and it seems counter to all the other sources I have found).

I thought it was Dr Baker who initially said that, when he said it was a dose that could have been called an overdose if his death occurred in different circumstances, or something like that. It must be here somewhere because I've quoted it before.

He later clarified that he had found traces of fentanyl in his blood but that it could not be identified as the COD.

Anyway, the impression I got was that he first made it sound like it was such a large dose that it would have killed him anyway (equivalent to what a chronic pain patient takes) and later clarified that it was not the cause of death.

I think it was just linked again today so I'll look for it.

Imo

 

[kittythehare]

I thought it was Dr Baker who initially said that, when he said it was a dose that could have been called an overdose if his death occurred in different circumstances, or something like that. It must be here somewhere because I've quoted it before.

He later clarified that he had found traces of fentanyl in his blood but that it could not be identified as the COD.

Anyway, the impression I got was that he first made it sound like it was such a large dose that it would have killed him anyway (equivalent to what a chronic pain patient takes) and later clarified that it was not the cause of death.

I think it was just linked again today so I'll look for it.

Imo

All three medical experts attested to this..
I posted two links just above..