George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[Legally Bland]

I have a question. Chauvin originally agreed to take a plea for 3rd degree murder but the AG denied it. 3rd degree was put back in as an option at the start of the trial, can Chauvin not decide at any time prior to the end of the trial to plead guilty to 3rd degree murder?

I assume he can, but it was never a plea "agreement", it was an offer from Chauvin on his terms. So if he pleads guilty now his fate is up to the judge and his sentence will be served in-state.

As soldiers prepared to take to the streets, the officer, Derek Chauvin, believed that the case against him was so devastating that he agreed to plead guilty to third-degree murder. As part of the deal, officials now say, he was willing to go to prison for more than 10 years. Local officials, scrambling to end the community’s swelling anger, scheduled a news conference to announce the deal.

But at the last minute, according to new details laid out by three law enforcement officials, the deal fell apart after William P. Barr, the attorney general at the time, rejected the arrangement. The deal was contingent on the federal government’s approval because Mr. Chauvin, who had asked to serve his time in a federal prison, wanted assurance he would not face federal civil rights charges.

An official said Mr. Barr worried that a plea deal, so early in the process and before a full investigation had concluded, would be perceived as too lenient by the growing number of protesters across America. At the same time, Mr. Barr wanted to allow state officials, who were about to take over the case from the county prosecutor who has had tense relations with Minneapolis’s Black community, to make their own decisions about how to proceed.
​

Why William Barr Rejected a Plea Deal in the George Floyd Killing

 

[Cubby]

Reposting the autopsy report.

I read several times no damage to trachea, no signs of bruising neck or shoulders noted on the internal visual exam.
My interpretation and opinion.

Bruising or lack of bruising is irrelevant. Neither have anything to do with the inability to inhale with the officers weight preventing effective breathing. I am certain this will not be overlooked by the jury.

 

[Gibbo214]

I agree.
A 90% blockage, is a walking time bomb...MOO.

Basically he had 10% heart function.

Do you have any documentation to support that opinion? Thanks.

 

[CrimeAway]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

The medical experts who have testified so far, have said that in THEIR opinion Mr. Floyd did not suffer a heart attack.

I believe that Mr Baker also stated that he didn't dissect the area of the SA node, which is supplied by the right proximal cardiac artery (in most ppl)?. That was the artery that was 90% occluded in Mr Floyd, IIRC.

It will be interesting to hear the prosecution's defense's medical experts IMO.

 

[mickey2942]

I totally agree!

It actually annoys me when people equate legally prescribed (and properly used) stimulants such as methylphenidate (Ritalin/Concerta), mixed amphetamine salts (Adderall), dextroamphetamine (Dexedrine), lisdexamphetamine (Vyvanse) and even methamphetamine (Desoxyn), with illegal meth or cocaine use.

ETA: somewhat OT, but there are studies showing that a large percentage of the prison population has ADHD.
A meta-analysis of the prevalence of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in incarcerated populations
Also other studies showing that early treatment for ADHD can help prevent later substance abuse:
Preventing Substance Abuse in ADHD Takes Early Treatment, Harvard Expert Says

Yes, common. Poor impulse control, lack of thinking about consequences prior to actions. And my personal bias that school doesn't do enough for kids who are not wired to sit at a desk eight hours a day.

They dropout, due to inability to focus, and no other options offered. Soon to become part of the pipeline "drop out to prison" chain. Sadly.

I truly believe that some meth users are actually "self medicating" for their own ADHD. Not that they realize this.

 

[Simply Southern]

Bruising or lack of bruising is irrelevant. Neither have anything to do with the inability to inhale with the officers weight preventing effective breathing. I am certain this will not be overlooked by the jury.

MOO...If a 145 person applied press to my neck or shoulders for nine minutes with their knee, there should be damage to tissue. The autopsy states how they opened his back and examined the tissue. It states clearly no damage.

It takes pressure to cut off the airway or pressure so hard to his back or lung area, GF couldn't take a breath.

I know its strange, maybe we will hear this addressed.

Its just my opinion. I tend to look at both sides of any situation.

 

[Legally Bland]

I believe that Mr Baker also stated that he didn't dissect the area of the SA node, which is supplied by the right proximal cardiac artery (in most ppl)?. That was the artery that was 90% occluded in Mr Floyd, IIRC.

RSBM

What would this show (or not show), I genuinely don't know.

ETA: what would this dissection show, just in case that isn't clear.

 

[missy1974]

The medical experts who have testified so far, have said that in THEIR opinion Mr. Floyd did not suffer a heart attack.

I believe that Mr Baker also stated that he didn't dissect the area of the SA node, which is supplied by the right proximal cardiac artery (in most ppl)?. That was the artery that was 90% occluded in Mr Floyd, IIRC.

It will be interesting to hear the prosecution's medical experts IMO.

Yes, I don't think he had a heart attack either.

Do you mean defense medical experts? I think we have one more prosecution medical witness, a cardiologist I believe.

 

[missy1974]

MOO...If a 145 person applied press to my neck or shoulders for nine minutes with their knee, there should be damage to tissue. The autopsy states how they opened his back and examined the tissue. It states clearly no damage.

It takes pressure to cut off the airway or pressure so hard to his back or lung area, GF couldn't take a breath.

I know its strange, maybe we will hear this addressed.

Its just my opinion. I tend to look at both sides of any situation.

It was addressed with Baker yesterday..

after a description of the knee/shin bones.

Nelson: So if a substantial amount of force was being used by the knee or the shin bone on the neck or back area, in your line of work, and if that force was sufficient to aphyxiate him, would you expect to see bruising on the back?

Baker: I would expect to see bruising, but I don't know that the lack of bruising excludes that.

about the 30:00 mark

 

[CrimeAway]

RSBM

What would this show (or not show), I genuinely don't know.

I believe the thought process is that, if Mr Floyd's SA node was reliant on blood flow from the right coronary artery, and that artery was 90% occluded, it could potentially have caused an arythmia.
If not corrected, that arythmia, could have resulted in the heart not being able to adequately supply blood to the brain and the rest of the body. It will be interesting if that is what Nelson was getting at in his cross examination yesterday imo.

Anatomy, Thorax, Heart Coronary Arteries - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

 

[CrimeAway]

Yes, I don't think he had a heart attack either.

Do you mean defense medical experts? I think we have one more prosecution medical witness, a cardiologist I believe.

Duh, I meant defense!!!

 

[shotgun09]

The medical experts who have testified so far, have said that in THEIR opinion Mr. Floyd did not suffer a heart attack.

I believe that Mr Baker also stated that he didn't dissect the area of the SA node, which is supplied by the right proximal cardiac artery (in most ppl)?. That was the artery that was 90% occluded in Mr Floyd, IIRC.

It will be interesting to hear the prosecution's medical experts IMO.

Did they state in their opinion that definitively GF did not suffer a heart attack? Or, did they say that there was no evidence of a heart attack? I don't want to go back and listen! Lol! Because there is a difference, IMO

 

[missy1974]

Did they state in their opinion that definitively GF did not suffer a heart attack? Or, did they say that there was no evidence of a heart attack? I don't want to go back and listen! Lol! Because there is a difference, IMO

I think it's important to know that a heart attack is not heart failure. A heart attack is the most common cause of heart failure, but is not the only cause.

Heart failure

Causes
Heart failure has many causes or underlying risk factors. The most common is damage to the heart muscle caused by a heart attack (myocardial infarction).

The second most common cause of heart failure is high blood pressure (hypertension). If left undiagnosed and untreated for a long period, high blood pressure can lead to heart failure. It is important to get your blood pressure checked at least once every two years or more often if your physician recommends you do so.

Less common causes include:

• Heart valves that are not working properly by being too narrow or leaky (heart valve disease).
• Infection causing inflammation of the heart muscle (myocarditis).
• Excessive use of alcohol or drugs.
• Diabetes.
• Being obese or overweight.
• High blood cholesterol.
• Heart muscle disease of unknown causes.
• Other medical conditions such as thyroid diseases or anemia.

 

[Legally Bland]

I believe the thought process is that, if Mr Floyd's SA node was reliant on blood flow from the right coronary artery, and that artery was 90% occluded, it could potentially have caused an arythmia.
If not corrected, that arythmia, could have resulted in the heart not being able to adequately supply blood to the brain and the rest of the body. It will be interesting if that is what Nelson was getting at in his cross examination yesterday imo.

Anatomy, Thorax, Heart Coronary Arteries - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Thanks for your reply. Are you suggesting GF could have died from natural causes?

 

[Cubby]

MOO...If a 145 person applied press to my neck or shoulders for nine minutes with their knee, there should be damage to tissue. The autopsy states how they opened his back and examined the tissue. It states clearly no damage.

It takes pressure to cut off the airway or pressure so hard to his back or lung area, GF couldn't take a breath.

I know its strange, maybe we will hear this addressed.

Its just my opinion. I tend to look at both sides of any situation.

But it was 3 officers, not just one. GF could not expand his lungs to get a sufficient amount of oxygen. The main cause of death is respiratory.

I can't see anything other than the inability to breath not being the main cause of death. The main reason for the inability to breath was the situation with the officers.

I liken the defenses argument to trying to say a drunk driver wasn't the cause of an accident and blaming it on a mechanical failure that occurred while the drunk was behind the wheel.

 

[Simply Southern]

The toxicologist who did the lab work testified that the level of methamphetamine was very low and was consistant with a prescription dose. I'm pretty sure Dr. Baker agreed that it was not a significant amount. Imo

Page three of the toxicology report, list dosages and expected ranges in the lab report.

The largest dose of 100mg patch range is 1.9mg - 3.8mg
GF had 11mg at 9:00 pm, several hours after taking the drug.
MOO...

 

[Simply Southern]

He was only disciplined for two incidents involving excessive force. One was a shooting and I'm not sure what the other one was. It may have been a police chase which ended with two people being killed. Imo

Is there documentation for this? I'm interested in the details of what happened.

Thanks....

 

[missy1974]

Page three of the toxicology report, list dosages and expected ranges in the lab report.

The largest dose of 100mg patch range is 1.9mg - 3.8mg
GF had 11mg at 9:00 pm, several hours after taking the drug.
MOO...

You are confusing the meth with the fentanyl

It's happened lots this past week lol IMO there is no safe amount of meth, fentanyl seems to be debatable taking all factors into consideration like tolerance levels.

 

[CrimeAway]

Thanks for your reply. Are you suggesting GF could have died from natural causes?

I'm not necessarily suggesting anything.

IMO, it's whether or not the prosecution can prove their case to the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that matters.

 

[CrimeAway]

Page three of the toxicology report, list dosages and expected ranges in the lab report.

The largest dose of 100mg patch range is 1.9mg - 3.8mg
GF had 11mg at 9:00 pm, several hours after taking the drug.
MOO...

Respectfully, I think that you might be confusing the drug dosage with the concentration of drug found in GF's blood (easy to do). It believe his blood contained 11ng/ml (nanograms/milliliter), fentanyl and the fentanyl patches are dosed in mcg/hr (micrograms/hour).

Don't feel bad, I got the prosecution and defense mixed up a minute ago