George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[MadMcGoo]

Dr. Baker described George Floyd’s lungs as “edematous,” meaning fluid-filled. He said this was a non-specific finding — it has multiple potential causes, including the CPR that Floyd received. It's possible that the defense will ask whether it might have been a rare complication of fentanyl use known as flash pulmonary edema.
Drugs and Heart Disease Were ‘Not Direct Causes’ of Floyd’s Death, Medical Examiner Says

Oh yeah, the edema didn’t phase me or sway me, I’ve suffered from it myself. It was the statement about GF surviving for a period of time. I had never heard that. I’m still not sure if it was meant in a literal or legal point of view. Or even what, if anything, that would mean in this case.

 

[Gibbo214]

One of the main reasons why I quit smoking was because I didn't want to have lung problems. I guess the odds of that were not very high. JMO

10% is quite a large proportion though.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

10% is quite a large proportion though.

No. 90% of smokers not having lung problems is large.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

The risk factors and prognostic implication of acute pulmonary edema in resuscitated cardiac arrest patients

In conclusion, prolonged chest compressions and increased initial pCO2 level are both independent risk factors for the development of acute pulmonary edema in patients with sudden cardiac arrest.

Postcardiopulmonary resuscitation pulmonary edema - PubMed

During CPR, many factors could cause pulmonary edema, including external cardiac massage (ECM), administration or release of catecholamines, hypoxia, acidosis, overhydration, etc. This study indicates that patients who need CPR have a high likelihood of developing pulmonary edema.

 

[missy1974]

This is what took me by surprise. I couldn’t understand... how? Why?

His question to the expert was along the lines of "given that he survived and made it to the hospital for a period of time"? and the expert replied 'yes'.

Here is the clip, if it doesn't open up to the right time, it's at about 42:30

 

[MadMcGoo]

Here is the clip, if it doesn't open up to the right time, it's at about 42:30

I understand what was said, I listed very attentively as it transpired. I don’t understand how GF was “brought back to life” and then “died again”. Or that he was alive after he made it to the hospital. That’s basically what the ME testified to. How could this be? For me, without further explanation, it opens up several possibilities. He survived the restraint and succumbed to something else, for example. I’m just left with so many questions.

 

[missy1974]

I understand what was said, I listed very attentively as it transpired. I don’t understand how GF was “brought back to life” and then “died again”. Or that he was alive after he made it to the hospital. That’s basically what the ME testified to. How could this be? For me, without further explanation, it opens up several possibilities. He survived the restraint and succumbed to something else, for example. I’m just left with so many questions.

yep, I get it

I just kind of jumped off your post to post the actual clip. I don't think you are questioning the edema, you are questioning the statement that was made by Dr. Baker "given that he survived and made it to the hospital for a period of time"

I don't understand why Nelson didn't jump on that???

I did notice that Baker is also on the Defense witness list, possible we will see him again?

 

[Tippy Lynn]

For anyone who’s interested I started a thread.
MN - Daunte Wright, 20, Shot and Killed by Police, Brooklyn Park, 11 April 2021

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I understand what was said, I listed very attentively as it transpired. I don’t understand how GF was “brought back to life” and then “died again”. Or that he was alive after he made it to the hospital. That’s basically what the ME testified to. How could this be? For me, without further explanation, it opens up several possibilities. He survived the restraint and succumbed to something else, for example. I’m just left with so many questions.

I just listened to the rewind on the clip.

He was speaking specifically to the CPR induced the edema... and "he survived" meant that CPR was circulating his blood and he had yet to be "pronounced". MOO .. and therefore edema could have been happening during that CPR.

 

[Gibbo214]

He was speaking specifically to the CPR induced the edema... and "he survived" meant that CPR was circulating his blood and he had yet to be "pronounced". MOO

Yes.

 

[MadMcGoo]

yep, I get it

I just kind of jumped off your post to post the actual clip. I don't think you are questioning the edema, you are questioning the statement that was made by Dr. Baker "given that he survived and made it to the hospital for a period of time"

I don't understand why Nelson didn't jump on that???

I did notice that Baker is also on the Defense witness list, possible we will see him again?

I think Nelson tried. He’s just an odd character...stumbling over his own words. I was very taken aback by Baker’s testimony. Only because I think he was the only one willing to say the things others wouldn’t. I think that’s why the prosecution kept their distance a little. It will be interesting if we see him again.

 

[MsBetsy]

I agree, and agreed at the time, this was huge.

The jury must have been very confused when he said, "given that he survived a period of time," since he had no pulse a few minutes before being loaded into the ambulance, the paramedic said he looked dead, and they were never able to detect a pulse again.

It sounded like he not only hadn't seen the body cam evidence, but also didn't know all the details of the case.

 

[MadMcGoo]

I just listened to the rewind on the clip.

He was speaking specifically to the CPR induced the edema... and "he survived" meant that CPR was circulating his blood and he had yet to be "pronounced". MOO .. and therefore edema could have been happening during that CPR.

I assumed that’s what was meant. I’d just like to know for sure.

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

After the verdict is reached, and considering the similarities, I’ll be interested to compare the results in this case to Tony Timpa.
—
I’m still interested in the exact conundrum regarding Freeman and the rest of the first prosecution team — who were subsequently removed — and are now on the defense witness list. Were any of Baker’s findings altered at any point due to pressure? Was the original prosecution team not interested in pursuing charges after his findings? IMO, there’s a lot more to this story and it’ll be interesting to hear it. Especially if any government officials interviewed Baker, and are also testifying.

Here’s an interesting article from last year:

George Floyd's autopsy puts Hennepin County Medical Examiner Andrew Baker in the hot seat

 

[Gibbo214]

The jury must have been very confused when he said, "given that he survived a period of time," since he had no pulse a few minutes before being loaded into the ambulance, the paramedic said he looked dead, and they were never able to detect a pulse again.

It sounded as if he not only had not watched the body cam evidence, he also didn't know all the details of the case.

In forty years of nursing, I have never seen an experienced person mistake a living person for a dead person If they look dead, they are.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I think Nelson tried. He’s just an odd character...stumbling over his own words. I was very taken aback by Baker’s testimony. Only because I think he was the only one willing to say the things others wouldn’t. I think that’s why the prosecution kept their distance a little. It will be interesting if we see him again.

Nelson's "stumbles" actually make me like him and gives his cross examinations a feeling of a regular guy having a conversation with the witness.

I'm not sure if the entire jury feels the same but he only needs to have one on his side. JMO

 

[kittythehare]

Nelson's "stumbles" actually make me like him and gives his cross examinations a feeling of a regular guy having a conversation with the witness.

I'm not sure if the entire jury feels the same but he only needs to have one on his side. JMO

Is that the balance @RANCH?
One for each charge, verdict needs to be autonomous?

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Some things in the past interest me because even though it’s not relevant in this case, it might explain what’s going on in someone’s mind.

For example, DC used a neck restraint on a subject in 2017 for approximately 17 minutes while waiting for paramedics. A use of force report was made and he was cleared by supervisors. Neck restraints and chokeholds weren’t banned by Minneapolis until June 2020, after the GF incident. IMO

 

[Gibbo214]

Nelson's "stumbles" actually make me like him and gives his cross examinations a feeling of a regular guy having a conversation with the witness.

I'm not sure if the entire jury feels the same but he only needs to have one on his side. JMO

I am not sure what this 'one on his side' means. That does not mean verdict of innocence. It means a retrial.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Nelson's "stumbles" actually make me like him and gives his cross examinations a feeling of a regular guy having a conversation with the witness.

I'm not sure if the entire jury feels the same but he only needs to have one on his side. JMO

I can relate to him. I’d be much worse on the stand. It’s a nerve racking process no matter who you are.