George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

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So the CPR could have raised the o2 levels in GF's blood. Wouldn't that also affect the carbon monoxide levels in his blood? JMO

I believe it would raise the oxygen saturation yes. I don't know if they took blood gas readings at any time prior to that, and would be interested in it.

As for the carbon monoxide... I think it may have helped a teeny tiny bit, but not significantly because it wasn't long enough.

I found medical forums that are even discussing this case and it's quite interesting to read, if you like that kinda stuff lol There seems to be some conflicting views on how much CPR would raise the oxygen, so that is why I think that Blackwell should have had Dr. Tobin explain more. JMO
 
I believe it would raise the oxygen saturation yes. I don't know if they took blood gas readings at any time prior to that, and would be interested in it.

As for the carbon monoxide... I think it may have helped a teeny tiny bit, but not significantly because it wasn't long enough.

I found medical forums that are even discussing this case and it's quite interesting to read, if you like that kinda stuff lol There seems to be some conflicting views on how much CPR would raise the oxygen, so that is why I think that Blackwell should have had Dr. Tobin explain more. JMO
Thanks. I don't think the defense proved that carbon monoxide was a major factor in GF's death but I'm still wondering how someone can die of lack of oxygen and have such a high level of oxygen in their blood. JMO
 
To be clear, I am not questioning it, but after seeing the confusion elsewhere (and I'm not talking about just a few people), this should have been explained to the jury IMO
I think a couple of witnesses explained CPR, although I don't remember which. Maybe the ER doctor? Dr. Thomas? Idk but maybe the nurse can explain it to any jurors who don't understand how CPR works. Are they allowed to review any of the experts testimony? I know the judge said they will have access to all the videos. I'm sure they will ask questions if they don't understand. Imo
 
I believe it would raise the oxygen saturation yes. I don't know if they took blood gas readings at any time prior to that, and would be interested in it.

As for the carbon monoxide... I think it may have helped a teeny tiny bit, but not significantly because it wasn't long enough.

I found medical forums that are even discussing this case and it's quite interesting to read, if you like that kinda stuff lol There seems to be some conflicting views on how much CPR would raise the oxygen, so that is why I think that Blackwell should have had Dr. Tobin explain more. JMO
I'm not sure it would have raised it either. I would think CPR would just keep the oxygen flowing through the body. If there was carbon monoxide, it would have shown up in his bloodstream. He had a level of 1.5 and 2% is within normal range. Anyway, the jury likely won't spend too much time considering the carbon monoxide poisoning since there is no clear evidence that the car was running. Even if it was, it was the police who kept him restrained near the exhaust in the first place. Imo
 
I think a couple of witnesses explained CPR, although I don't remember which. Maybe the ER doctor? Dr. Thomas? Idk but maybe the nurse can explain it to any jurors who don't understand how CPR works. Are they allowed to review any of the experts testimony? I know the judge said they will have access to all the videos. I'm sure they will ask questions if they don't understand. Imo
I went back to the ER doc last night, for a different reason (looking to see if there was any info about oxygen levels at different times, there wasn't) and no, I don't recall him saying it.

But it could have been another doc. I will keep my eye on that though, I do want to go back and listen to Dr. Tobin's testimony, it could be in there! I do think they will be able to get some sort of read back or something if they have questions. And the prosecution better hope that nurse is picked for the final 12 IMO
 
I went back to the ER doc last night, for a different reason (looking to see if there was any info about oxygen levels at different times, there wasn't) and no, I don't recall him saying it.

But it could have been another doc. I will keep my eye on that though, I do want to go back and listen to Dr. Tobin's testimony, it could be in there! I do think they will be able to get some sort of read back or something if they have questions. And the prosecution better hope that nurse is picked for the final 12 IMO
She will be. It was the last jurors picked who were the alternates
 
I'm not sure it would have raised it either. I would think CPR would just keep the oxygen flowing through the body. If there was carbon monoxide, it would have shown up in his bloodstream. He had a level of 1.5 and 2% is within normal range. Anyway, the jury likely won't spend too much time considering the carbon monoxide poisoning since there is no clear evidence that the car was running. Even if it was, it was the police who kept him restrained near the exhaust in the first place. Imo

One of the officers did testify that the car was running, they turned it off when it was loaded for towing or something.
I think the State could have left the carbon monoxide thing alone and been better off without leaving the jury with that testimony yesterday. They have 4 days to sit on it. JMO
 
I’ve never watched a full trial and this was the first one I’ve watched from start finish. My perspective might be totally off but I got the impression that the defense didn’t really try to prove anything. Instead the just tried to sprinkle a bunch of different “reasonable doubt” scenarios. Didn’t try to prove the carbon monoxide was a large factor, or that he certainly overdosed, or that DC's knee wasn’t on his neck, or that GF says “I ate too many drugs”, or that the crowd was an aggressive threat, or that GFs narrowing of arteries caused his death, or that the enlarged heart/high BP caused the death, and on and on and on. I feel like they just threw a bunch of "reasonable doubt" at a wall and hope that it sticks with one juror.
 
Thanks. I don't think the defense proved that carbon monoxide was a major factor in GF's death but I'm still wondering how someone can die of lack of oxygen and have such a high level of oxygen in their blood. JMO

If Floyd's blood oxygen level of 98 was an issue that would help the defense, do you think every expert for Chauvin would have missed it? I don't think so. You would have to look at the medical records to see if blood gasses were drawn before the one that was 98- you would have to see if he got supplemental oxygen in the ambulance and at the hospital when attempts were made to resuscitate him. My belief is that he received supplemental oxygen that raised his level to 98, which is why it is a non issue for the defense.
 
Thanks. I don't think the defense proved that carbon monoxide was a major factor in GF's death but I'm still wondering how someone can die of lack of oxygen and have such a high level of oxygen in their blood. JMO


Google is your friend, unless you have a medical background. If a medical background (as the nurse) they may have basic knowledge that pulse oximetry/oxygen saturation detects oxygenated VS deoxygentated hemoglobin only.

If it has CO on the hemoglobin, it will be read falsely as "oxygen" as the hemoglobin is oxygenated... as the CO has oxygen on it.

Readings are falsely elevated to carboxyhemoglobin.

False Positive Rate of Carbon Monoxide Saturation by Pulse Oximetry of Emergency Department Patients

The pulse oximetry gap in carbon monoxide intoxication - PubMed

Pulse oximetry in severe carbon monoxide poisoning - PubMed
 
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ohhh thank you, I thought they didn't know who was going to make up the final 12.


The last one on this list (#131 male) was dropped in the beginning, the top two per Minnesota (IIRC they do in order) will be dropped from deliberations, and have to come to court and read a book or ??? during deliberations. MOO. In case they are needed.

No. 96: White woman, 50s
She described herself as an animal lover who is passionate about advocacy for affordable housing and homelessness. She told the court said she recently resigned from her customer service-related job. The juror noted she feels like she is good at de-escalating conflicts and getting both sides to come together for a resolution.

She said she had seen video clips of the bystander video a few times and is also aware of the $27 million settlement.

In her questionnaire, she wrote that the restraint used on Floyd was “ultimately responsible” for his death, but under questioning she acknowledged that was her assumption based on what she had seen. She acknowledged the video may not show the entirety of what happened.

No. 118: White woman, 20s
The juror is a social worker who has relatives who are nurses.

In her line of work, she's had to call the police to remove unruly people. When asked by the prosecution if she's ever seen someone not comply with the police, she said she has not. Schleicher, the prosecutor, wondered if she would blame a person who doesn't comply with police for injuries resulting from a police encounter. She said everyone needs to be treated with respect even if they are suspected of a crime.

She disagrees with defunding police, but under questioning about police reform said that “there are good things and things that should be changed.”

The juror said she’s discussed the case with family members, including one who said they thought Chauvin should not have kept his knee on Floyd's neck for that long.

She said her decision regarding a verdict would not affect her relationship with family and she wouldn't feel the need to justify it. She said she's curious to hear more about police training that may have influenced how the encounter unfolded.

No. 131: White man, 20s
He described himself as an accountant and a sports fan. When asked by Schleicher about his opinion on athletes who “take a knee” during the national anthem, the man said, “I would prefer if someone would express their beliefs in a different manner. But I understand what they are trying to do and raise the dialogue on certain issues.”

The man said that after watching the bystander video from May 25, 2020, he felt like Chauvin’s use of force lasted too long.

He said he generally believes racial minorities are treated unfairly by the criminal justice system.

He strongly disagrees with the notion of defunding the Minneapolis Police Department. “I believe the force is a necessary and integral part of our society,” he said.

source: jury list from media thread in order. In case anyone want to review again who is on the jury. MOO MN - George Floyd, 46, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 **Media & Timeline - NO DISCUSSION
 
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I’ve never watched a full trial and this was the first one I’ve watched from start finish. My perspective might be totally off but I got the impression that the defense didn’t really try to prove anything. Instead the just tried to sprinkle a bunch of different “reasonable doubt” scenarios. Didn’t try to prove the carbon monoxide was a large factor, or that he certainly overdosed, or that DC's knee wasn’t on his neck, or that GF says “I ate too many drugs”, or that the crowd was an aggressive threat, or that GFs narrowing of arteries caused his death, or that the enlarged heart/high BP caused the death, and on and on and on. I feel like they just threw a bunch of "reasonable doubt" at a wall and hope that it sticks with one juror.

Totally agree-- as I have said so many times, the defense is trying to appeal to that one juror to hang the jury and cause a mistrial.
 
I just went back to read about the jurors... from the sounds of this, will she even be able to explain it to others??? @Tippy Lynn do you recall this line of questioning?

No. 89: White woman, 50s

She said she’s a cardiac care nurse who lives in the suburbs.

She was questioned in depth about her medical training and whether she would second-guess police on resuscitation efforts. She was also asked whether she would reference her nursing experience during deliberations. She said she could avoid it, and would not act as an expert during deliberations.

“I think I can be impartial and listen to instructions and go with what I’m given and ignore the outside stuff,” she said.
 
Does anyone here know: Are all Exhibits available somewhere for public access? I'm specifically looking for EMS reports (I think they're called 'run sheets'), and I'm not even sure whether those full reports were entered as exhibits that the jury will have access to in deliberations, demonstrative exhibits that they will not have access to, or if jurors are meant to rely solely on their memory of the paramedics' testimony in the courtroom.

WHY did no one ask of Mr. Smith what the monitor showed GF's O2 saturation to be when they first began monitoring?!?! He did testify on direct examination that he was monitoring for heart rhythm, electrical activity, CO2, pulse ox... (and possibly other things ~ I had a hard time deciphering all that he said). Surely they all had access to the actual reports from EMS, and all of this information would have been recorded. Considering the fact that the State's position is that GF's cause of death was low oxygen, this would be KEY information, IMO. We know that ABG measured O2 sats at 98%, and CO2 sats at 89% in the ER, but that (those? possibly multiple draws?) blood draw was done at least half an hour after resuscitative efforts by EMS had begun (including CPR and mechanical ventilation), which I presume would have increased O2 levels, even though George was not really responding to the treatment. This really irks me...

Based on my own research (because it wasn't directly addressed in the courtroom, as far as I could find), I believe that the extremely elevated CO2 sats (89%, where normal is between 35 - 45%, per Dr. Tobin's original testimony) likely can be related in some way to determining O2 levels, but presumably not in the exact same manner as CO levels, as those are more absolute in their relativity. Once CO binds to hemoglobin protein, it cannot be displaced by O2 (so Carbon MONOxide levels could not have been more than 2% at any time), but I don't believe that to be true of CO2. The gas exchange of the breathing process as it relates to O2 and CO2 seems to be more complex; I'm not an expert in the field, and having some difficulty understanding the exact calculable formulae. (Please help me, Dr. Tobin! lol)

I bring this up because being reminded of that ABG reading of O2 saturation of 98% brought forward in yesterday's testimony really jumped out at me as being contradictory to the State's claim of COD being 'low oxygen'... (I have a regular, resting O2 sat of 93, due to a chronic health condition and I haven't dropped dead yet! I live, work, walk my 75-pound dog every day, all without supplemental oxygen therapy.) I can't help but wonder if any of the jurors would find that rather odd as well, and possibly raise some reasonable doubt as to COD. Hopefully, the juror who is a nurse will be able to explain to anyone who may pose that during deliberations, as they won't have opportunity or means to independently research as I have done. Causes me some concern. All MOO.

ETA: Now that I'm more caught up, I see that I'm not the only one who's concerned or confused about this, and am off to check out some of the links provided by others. TY!
 
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Google is your friend, unless you have a medical background. If a medical background (as the nurse) they may have basic knowledge that pulse oximetry/oxygen saturation detects oxygenated AND deoxygentated hemoglobin only.

If it has CO on the hemoglobin, it will be read falsely as "oxygen" as the hemoglobin is oxygenated... as the CO has oxygen on it.

Readings are falsely elevated to carboxyhemoglobin.

False Positive Rate of Carbon Monoxide Saturation by Pulse Oximetry of Emergency Department Patients

The pulse oximetry gap in carbon monoxide intoxication - PubMed

Pulse oximetry in severe carbon monoxide poisoning - PubMed

These links are about carbon monoxide poisoning. My post say's I don't feel that the defense proved that carbon monoxide was a major factor.

What does me having or not a medical background have to do with me wondering about GF's o2 level?
 
If Floyd's blood oxygen level of 98 was an issue that would help the defense, do you think every expert for Chauvin would have missed it? I don't think so. You would have to look at the medical records to see if blood gasses were drawn before the one that was 98- you would have to see if he got supplemental oxygen in the ambulance and at the hospital when attempts were made to resuscitate him. My belief is that he received supplemental oxygen that raised his level to 98, which is why it is a non issue for the defense.
I can't answer for why the defense did or didn't do anything. I'm just curious about how GF's o2 level was so high. JMO
 
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