George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

[Tippy Lynn]

Conversely, I tend to think that Chauvin was accustomed to acting 'old school'. When he had been retrained in newer policy.

Something that happens in all professions. Updated methods and policy are introduced and people are expected to comply.

Do you think the state proved beyond a reasonable doubt that DC was retrained in newer policy?

 

[wasnt_me]

I voted for second-degree manslaughter on Sillybilly's poll. After hearing today's defense experts, I changed my vote to the more serious third-degree murder.

I think I'm between these two charges as well.

 

[wasnt_me]

Do you think the state proved beyond a reasonable doubt that DC was retrained in newer policy?

I thought the police use of force trainers testified that he was aware of policies and had attended sessions. I thought he was even a trainer?

I thought the prosecutor also showed a document that DC signed that said that, as a part of his job, he swore to be up-to-date with all the protocols. I can't remember what day it was, but the prosecution had people to testify to that.

I don't know if the charges or law indicate that DC must have known his policies in order to be guilty of these crimes. You state that it's reasonable that he thought he was doing his job. Sunday, a police officer thought she was doing her job when she yelled "taser! taser!" but it was really a gun. I don't know if "thinking you are doing your job" is an excuse for killing someone negligently.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

I thought the police use of force trainers testified that he was aware of policies and had attended sessions. I thought he was even a trainer?

I thought the prosecutor also showed a document that DC signed that said that, as a part of his job, he swore to be up-to-date with all the protocols. I can't remember what day it was, but the prosecution had people to testify to that.

I don't know if the charges or law indicate that DC must have known his policies in order to be guilty of these crimes. You state that it's reasonable that he thought he was doing his job. Sunday, a police officer thought she was doing her job when she yelled "taser! taser!" but it was really a gun. I don't know if "thinking you are doing your job" is an excuse for killing someone negligently.

Let me be more clear.

The state hasn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt that DC acted with a depraved heart or mind. I think it's possible that he was doing his job as he was trained to do it.

 

[Tom_Servo]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> ... I don't see many people supporting Chauvin. Most are in agreement he's guilty of something but very few think he's guilty of murder.

 

[wasnt_me]

Let me be more clear.

The state hasn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt that DC acted with a depraved heart or mind. I think it's possible that he was doing his job as he was trained to do it.

I understood that to be your point already, but you were asking if we thought they'd proved that he'd been training in new techniques. That's what I was giving my thoughts on. A depraved mind is not the same as doing one's job wrong, imo, and I don't think he was doing his job the way he thought he was trained if he was present a training sessions that instructed the opposite. They told us what they trained, and if he chose to do something different, that could be a depraved mind.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

We all have varying ranges of IQ, verbal and reading comprehension levels and focusing abilities. So it is good to restate evidence and the deliberation time is when the jury can voice not just opinions but ask for clarifications. I have never been on a jury but it appears a real task.

And I cringe every time a jury sends a question to the court for clarification, and the judge refuses to answer.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I thought the police use of force trainers testified that he was aware of policies and had attended sessions. I thought he was even a trainer?

I thought the prosecutor also showed a document that DC signed that said that, as a part of his job, he swore to be up-to-date with all the protocols. I can't remember what day it was, but the prosecution had people to testify to that.

I don't know if the charges or law indicate that DC must have known his policies in order to be guilty of these crimes. You state that it's reasonable that he thought he was doing his job. Sunday, a police officer thought she was doing her job when she yelled "taser! taser!" but it was really a gun. I don't know if "thinking you are doing your job" is an excuse for killing someone negligently.

Are you sure that Chauvin received all training available to police officers?

Mackenzie testified that she provides training on excited delirium only to new recruits. And Judge Peter Cahill cautioned jurors that there is no evidence Chauvin had the training.

Derek Chauvin trial: Expert says cop was justified in pinning down George Floyd

 

[MadMcGoo]

I couldn’t understand why DC would plead guilty to the most serious offense. It seems like it wasn’t because he felt he’d necessary be convicted of that offense, but that he’d be sentenced to more than 10 years. That’s also why the deal was turned down. The State (I assume) feels a jury will decide on more time than that. I worry what happens if they’re wrong.

William Barr Rejected Plea Deal for Cop Who Killed George Floyd: Report

Minnesota Judicial Branch - 27-CR-20-12646: State vs. Derek Chauvin

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Let me be more clear.

The state hasn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt that DC acted with a depraved heart or mind. I think it's possible that he was doing his job as he was trained to do it.

Yes, the prosecution is trying to get the jury instructions clearer for this case specifically re "Depraved Mind" elements, and 2 weeks ago did a submission you can read here

https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgo...20-12646/ProposedJuryInstructions04012021.pdf

NOTE: What is in RED below is what they want stricken and replaced with what is in GREEN for better jury understanding of what "Depraved Mind" elements are for wording in the jury charging instructions at the end of the trial prior to deliberations.

MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE—DEPRAVED MIND—ELEMENTS

The elements of murder in the third degree, as alleged here, are:

First, the death of George Floyd must be proven.

Second, the defendant, acting alone or aided by others, caused the death of George Floyd. “To cause” means to be a substantial causal factor in causing the death. The defendant is criminally liable for all the consequences of his actions that occur in the ordinary and natural course of events, including those consequences brought about by one or more intervening causes that were the natural result of the defendant's acts. The fact that other causes contribute to the death does not relieve the defendant of criminal liability. However, the defendant is not criminally liable if a “superseding cause” caused the death. A “superseding cause” is a cause that comes after the defendant’s acts, alters the natural sequence of events, and produces a result that would not otherwise have occurred. An action that occurs before the defendant’s conduct and is not the sole cause of the death does not constitute a superseding cause.

Third, the defendant's intentional act that caused the death of George Floyd was eminently dangerous to other persons and was performed without regard for human life. Such an act may not have been specifically intended to cause death, and may not have been specifically directed at the particular person whose death occurred. But in order to find this element has been satisfied, [it must have been committed in a reckless or wanton manner with the knowledge that someone may be killed and with a heedless disregard of that happening] the defendant’s act must have been committed with an indifference to the loss of human life that the eminently dangerous act could cause.

Fourth, the defendant’s act took place on May 25, 2020 in Hennepin County.


The defendant is charged with committing this crime or intentionally aiding the commission of this crime. If you find that each of these elements has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the defendant is guilty of this charge. If you find that any element has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the defendant is not guilty of this charge, unless you find the State has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is liable for this crime committed by another person according to the aiding-and-abetting instruction below



ETA: Forgot to do red/green

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Are you sure that Chauvin received all training available to police officers?


Derek Chauvin trial: Expert says cop was justified in pinning down George Floyd

Thanks for posting this.

 

[wasnt_me]

Are you sure that Chauvin received all training available to police officers?


Derek Chauvin trial: Expert says cop was justified in pinning down George Floyd

I never said I was sure he received all training available to all officers. I said "I thought" he received the training that pertained to what he's charged with -- killing GF with a knee to the neck.

Please let me know how excited delirum relates to DC feeling as if he's just doing what he's trained to do by putting his knee on GF's neck and holding it there for over 9 minutes, regardless of GF losing his pulse and denying the need to move him into the recovery, and not providing aid once he has no pulse.

I do not find the defense expert today credible, but thanks.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I never said I was sure. I said "I thought." Specifically about excited delirum? I don't really know what that has to do with his use of force training. What does it have to do with how he's trained to use force, escalate and and lower force? How does it relate his decision not to roll GF on his side or to provide aid when GF stopped breathing?

What I know is he signed something that said he'd stay up to date on his training.

It means that your post about his training may be inaccurate and nothing more.

I'm more interested in what Chauvin's actual training was and not if he signed a piece of paper saying he was up to date. Is that how MPD knows their officers are up to date with their training? Just sign a form stating that? That's not right IMO. Again JMO

 

[wasnt_me]

It means that your post about his training may be inaccurate and nothing more.

I'm more interested in what Chauvin's actual training was and not if he signed a piece of paper saying he was up to date. Is that how MPD knows their officers are up to date with their training? Just sign a form stating that? That's not right IMO. Again JMO

If he signed the paper, he's responsible. That's what it means. It's culpability. People sign documents and contracts for culpability. It's very important that one reads what he signs and abides by it.

I don't think the statement is inaccurate at all because I said "I thought." And if someone else had a correction, they are welcome to provide it. I don't consider excited delirum relevant to the training on prone and neck restraints, but you're welcome to.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Is the discussion of training having to do with folks thinking that he didn't know [due to fact that he wasn't proved to be trained on?] that a person who isn't breathing nor have a pulse should be aided, or put in recovery position?

The third degree charging document above ticks off all.... with perhaps this one folks are unsure of ? Are folks thinking that he didn't know that his actions were eminently dangerous (because there is no proof of training)? Or that it's not proven that he was indifferent?

Both Lane and Keung got off of him shortly after that point.

" the defendant’s act must have been committed with an indifference to the loss of human life that the eminently dangerous act could cause."

 

[dmac55]

If I was sitting on that jury and the prosecution kept up with repetitive evidence that matched previous witnesses testimony I'd be bored. We've seen that ten fold in this case. Same story told over and over again with different witnesses. It was enough after the first 4-5 witnesses. No need to beat the proverbial dead horse. I'd think the side presenting that point is insulting my intelligence. Like I didn't get it the first 10 times...puhleeze.

I'm opposite
I like to hear all the views, opinions, and theories
Even if they are similar

Especially when I am forming an important opinion

 

[Gibbo214]

Is the discussion of training having to do with folks thinking that he didn't know [due to fact that he wasn't proved to be trained on?] that a person who isn't breathing nor have a pulse should be aided, or put in recovery position?

The third degree charging document above ticks off all.... with perhaps this one folks are unsure of ? Are folks thinking that he didn't know that his actions were eminently dangerous (because there is no proof of training)? Or that it's not proven that he was indifferent?

" the defendant’s act must have been committed with an indifference to the loss of human life that the eminently dangerous act could cause."

To your bolded. I think that his last act of pulling Floyd up by his handcuffed arms and dropping his body down on to the pavement showed a complete indifference to life. Disgraceful and disrespect for a human being.

 

[wasnt_me]

Is the discussion of training having to do with folks thinking that he didn't know [due to fact that he wasn't proved to be trained on?] that a person who isn't breathing nor have a pulse should be aided, or put in recovery position?

The third degree charging document above ticks off all.... with perhaps this one folks are unsure of ? That he didn't know that his actions were eminently dangerous? Or that it's not proven that he was indifferent?

" the defendant’s act must have been committed with an indifference to the loss of human life that the eminently dangerous act could cause."

One poster said she couldn't get there with the depraved mind because DC could have thought he was just doing what he was trained to do. Then someone asked if that person couldn't get there despite all the training in the use of force and undo force. The person replied, asking how we knew DC's training was up-to-date in that.

At that point, I replied, citing that there was testimony that he was trained in it and they said they did yearly trainings and he signed a paper saying he'd stay up to date.

Then someone else came in talking about excited delirum training, which is not to do with what we were talking about. We were talking about his use of force training.

So that's how it came about.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

To your bolded. I think that his last act of pulling Floyd up by his handcuffed arms and dropping his body down on to the pavement showed a complete indifference to life. Disgraceful and disrespect for a human being.

Unfortunately, we didn't see as much of that pointed out in court though by the prosecution MOO. We have here at WS.

 

[wasnt_me]

Double post. I don't see how to delete it.