George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

[Factoria]

And now the jury must be wondering why Chauvin didn't bother to explain or defend himself. Or maybe not. They probably already know the answer.

They may be wondering... but, they're prohibited by law from considering his lack of testifying as evidence of his guilt.

 

[Boodles]

Oh, ok! I had thought that the counsels were going to discuss jury instructions and motions that are still outstanding prior to such. (Assume BIG TIME this is one which will be broadcasted.. how they will do so quick and have jury in at the time they stated.. wow!)

Good to know!

Did he specifically state that Monday would be when that was done? I know they cut it close... but why not in the next two days they have open to nail down jury instructions?

They’re doing that in chambers. Now. Or today. They’re still working, just not out in the courtroom.

 

[ilovewings]

I’m interested in this too. I know less than nothing about it so if you happen to find an answer, let us know! TIA

Perhaps he got oxygen supplementation in the ambulance and at the hospital.

 

[Rhozwen]

If it is a simple as Tobin says, i.e. 98% O2 saturation means max 2% CO (but more likely other gases too) which would be normal levels, then I'm rather confused why a forensic pathologist would try to claim carbon monoxide poisoning..

I suppose to add some kind of reasonable doubt element. Dr. Fowler also was asked what was in the contents of automobile exhaust and he answered. IMO he offered several explanations for things that were outside the scope of his expertise as a pathologist. It was allowed by the judge and wasn't objected to by the prosecution for some reason.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

The judge said they will be "off the record until Monday" and the lawyers and judge will be in what he called a "charge meeting". So it seems that meeting is not aired? That's what I can gather.

Darn! I am not familiar with them doing in camera! (which = off camera in legal terms) All I have followed in Florida, they did publicly. Each state is different.

 

[MadMcGoo]

I hate hate hate that the only person I’d like, or need, to hear from can’t tell us his side. I get it. It’s just a shame.

 

[bluebird69]

Watching WaPo which cut some of the coverage. Can anyone explain why Blackwell did not get back to questioning the witness after the lawyers left the room? It just went to Nelson asking the questions TIA

 

[missy1974]

I suppose to add some kind of reasonable doubt element. Dr. Fowler also was asked what was in the contents of automobile exhaust and he answered. IMO he offered several explanations for things that were outside the scope of his expertise as a pathologist. It was allowed by the judge and wasn't objected to by the prosecution for some reason.

Pulled this over from trial thread

In my experience when watching trials, ME's testify more like how Fowler did. Fowler isn't just simply a Forensic Pathologist, he was the Maryland ME for many years and has probably testified 100's of times in that capacity.

Dr. Baker, the ME in this case... his testimony, was NOT normal IMO

Maybe others that have followed trials or more trials than me will have a different opinion? I was really put off by Baker's testimony, it felt wrong for the whole hour or whatever it was he was on the stand. JMO

 

[missy1974]

Watching WaPo which cut some of the coverage. Can anyone explain why Blackwell did not get back to questioning the witness after the lawyers left the room? It just went to Nelson asking the questions TIA

I'm monitoring the Law and Crime youtube page... I missed Nelson questioning because I was on the other feed.

 

[ilovewings]

I hate hate hate that the only person I’d like, or need, to hear from can’t tell us his side. I get it. It’s just a shame.

He could but he chose not to- which I understand

 

[bluebird69]

I hate hate hate that the only person I’d like, or need, to hear from can’t tell us his side. I get it. It’s just a shame.

I almost couldn't breathe watching that part. I would hate to be a witness in a trial, it seems the lawyers constantly try to trip you up particularly with the yes/no questions

 

[MsBetsy]

I almost couldn't breathe watching that part. I would hate to be a witness in a trial, it seems the lawyers constantly try to trip you up particularly with the yes/no questions

He would have been destroyed by the prosecution. They would have pointed out each and every mistake he made and he wouldn't have been able to give a reasonable explanation. Imo

 

[magnolia]

I hate hate hate that the only person I’d like, or need, to hear from can’t tell us his side. I get it. It’s just a shame.

I hate it as well. I would be truly interested in hearing Chauvin tell his side of the story. Yes, it IS a shame.

 

[Dogface]

I just don’t understand how his blood oxygen level was so high if he died from lack of oxygen.
I tried to do some research - will keep looking - but according to this article (Evaluation of post-mortem oxymetry with reference to the causes of death - PubMed) it says:

anyone with more expertise in who could chime in would be greatly appreciated!

bringing this over because I really hope someone else can chime in on it.

In further research, I found this article

No significant differences in oxygen saturation or end tidal carbon dioxide were demonstrated in human volunteers between sitting, maximal restraint position or maximal restraint with up to 50 pounds (lb) of weight on the back. [18] Other studies indicate that 225 lb of pressure uniformly distributed over the back reduces the minute ventilation volume (MVV) to about 60% of predicted. [19] Thus, the targeted, relatively brief application of pressure to the back during cuffing (eg, knee on the back with less than full body weight applied) is not likely to cause significant, if any, asphyxia. However, the authors are of the opinion that the prolonged continuous application (probably measured in minutes) of extreme pressure on the chest (such as the nearly full body weight of several officers) is capable of causing death.

Pathology of Asphyxial Death: Overview, Epidemiology, Mechanism of Morbidity and Mortality

i tried to follow the studies linked but couldn’t get them to load. Might be a phone issue and I don’t have my laptop charger to switch devices.

I missed a day of trial as I had to get an MRI - did they address any of the other physical signs of asphyxia like blood vessels in the eyes?

 

[missy1974]

Anyone wondering why the State didn't use the 2 previous incidents of Chauvin's that they fought to introduce???

I can only assume that the State deemed them not helpful as the trial went on.

This is JMO but I do think that the Defense did a good job with "moving" Chauvin's knee from neck to the back during the trial. I no longer believe his knee was physically on GF's neck. I wonder if the incident that showed they moved someone into the recovery position didn't follow the States narrative for this case and would do more damage than good. again ALL JMO

 

[branmuffin]

Just tuned in to the trial. The judge is interviewing another jurist. Has one of the jurors been removed or had to leave?

ETA: I also found this report on an individual who committed suicide. He was a cab driver who lay down on the ground outside just under the exhaust of his vehicle.

Suicidal Carbon Monoxide Poisoning Using Motor Vehicle Exhaust in an Open Space

Nevermind!! it's the second day of jury selection. My bad. It came up live.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Anyone wondering why the State didn't use the 2 previous incidents of Chauvin's that they fought to introduce???

I can only assume that the State deemed them not helpful as the trial went on.

This is JMO but I do think that the Defense did a good job with "moving" Chauvin's knee from neck to the back during the trial. I no longer believe his knee was physically on GF's neck. I wonder if the incident that showed they moved someone into the recovery position didn't follow the States narrative for this case and would do more damage than good. again ALL JMO

Hmm. Not sure about why they wouldn’t bring them up. I’d be curious to know exactly what the complaints were. But I guess the State would have known details about them before they argued to introduce them. Good question.

 

[MsBetsy]

Pulled this over from trial thread

In my experience when watching trials, ME's testify more like how Fowler did. Fowler isn't just simply a Forensic Pathologist, he was the Maryland ME for many years and has probably testified 100's of times in that capacity.

Dr. Baker, the ME in this case... his testimony, was NOT normal IMO

Maybe others that have followed trials or more trials than me will have a different opinion? I was really put off by Baker's testimony, it felt wrong for the whole hour or whatever it was he was on the stand. JMO

Yes, it's never a good thing when the ME who completed the autopsy leaves out an important detail like the bloodwork he only just remembered yesterday.

He was vague and inconsistent during his testimony, not to mention the guilty look he had on his face. He said he didn't take a picture of the heart because he only takes photographs of something he considers abnormal, or something like that. He went on to say that Floyd's heart was within normal range for a man of Floyd's size, but slightly enlarged. Then at times he seemed to be saying it was grossly enlarged. He referred to his arteries as occluded or un-occluded as if they were full obstructed. At one point he said that even with Chauvin kneeling on his neck his "un-occluded" artery still would have supplied enough blood to his organs. Very confusing.

It's a good thing the other experts were brought in to explain that the size of Floyd's heart was within normal range and appeared healthy, his arteries were not actually "occluded" and he wasn't walking around about to have a heart attack at any moment.

Imo

 

[MadMcGoo]

What do you think Chauvin has been writing this whole time? It’s been a lot. Seriously.

 

[missy1974]

Yes, it's never a good thing when the ME who completed the autopsy leaves out an important detail like the bloodwork he only just remembered yesterday.

He was vague and inconsistent during his testimony, not to mention the guilty look he had on his face. He said he didn't take a picture of the heart because he only takes photographs of something he considers abnormal, or something like that. He went on to say that Floyd's heart was within normal range for a man of Floyd's size, but slightly enlarged. Then at times he seemed to be saying it was grossly enlarged. He referred to his arteries as occluded or un-occluded as if they were full obstructed. At one point he said that even with Chauvin kneeling on his neck his "un-occluded" artery still would have supplied enough blood to his organs. Very confusing.

It's a good thing the other experts were brought in to explain that the size of Floyd's heart was within normal range and appeared healthy, his arteries were not actually "occluded" and he wasn't walking around about to have a heart attack at any moment.

Imo

I honestly wonder if his conclusion would have been different under different circumstances. He seemed to have zero confidence in what he was saying. JMO