George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

[MsBetsy]

So I wonder if COVID played any role in NOT starting CPR. I doubt it. But this happened kinda early in the pandemic. I know I prolly would not have been to eager to get up close and personal with a stranger, especially knowing medics were on the way.

Are first responders not supposed to treat people who might have covid?

 

[MadMcGoo]

I don't think there is anybody that would consider Floyd's behavior as being "high and obnoxious." He immediately asked officer Lane to please not shoot him, he thanked him when he was allowed to sit down, he asked him not to leave him alone, told him he was scared, asked him if he would talk to him, and not once appeared to be aggressive. He thanked them again when they pulled him out of the car and forced him into the prone position.

I don't think it really matters when they determined he "actually couldn't breathe." He had already said so 17 times before being restrained, and the bystanders alerted the officers over and over again, in addition to Floyd's cries for help, while Chauvin continued to kneel on his neck for more than nine minutes.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on your first paragraph. I don’t know whether or not GF was being sincere. I’ve encountered far more people who were not.

I posted a relatively long comment regarding my thoughts on the rest of your post. I understand not many people will agree with me.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Is not knowing for sure the cause of death reasonable doubt in this case? The information about the 98% blood oxygen level has me wondering. JMO

 

[missy1974]

I would say it was positive to the officers that George couldn't breathe by this point.


“You got one?” Mr. Lane asked. “I can’t find one,” Mr. Kueng said. “Huh?” Mr. Chauvin replied. Mr. Kueng tried again, and again said he could not find a pulse.

More than two minutes then went by, according to timestamps on the transcript of Mr. Kueng’s body camera footage. Still, Mr. Chauvin kept his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck, videos show.
New Transcripts Detail Last Moments for George Floyd

In isolation on a transcript that is easy to "hear", but I just had to listen numerous times, finally put my headphones on, and after a few times, I was able to hear what was said on the transcript but still can't distinguish who said it. With cross talk and their and their radios... I dunno...

Why in the world didn't they clean up the audio on these video's??

Are we sure that it was even Chauvin that said huh??? to me it sounds like it might be Keung?

from the transcript linked in your post:

Male 3 : Check his pulse. Check his . Check his pulse. Check his pulse .

Thomas Lane: You got one?

J. Alexander Kueng: I can't find one

Derek Chauvin: Huh ?

Male 3 Check is his pulse.

J.AlexanderKueng: I thought check him for a pulse.

Male 3 : Check his pulse, bro. He's coding, bro. Don't do drugs , bro ?What is that ?What do you think that is? He saw your car, what you're doing today ?

J.AlexanderKueng: I can't find one

it's at about 18:00 of this video:

 

[Mony Mony]

Are first responders not supposed to treat people who might have covid?

He was a police officer, not a medical provider. He wasn’t responding to a medical distress call.

 

[Boodles]

We’ll have to agree to disagree on your first paragraph. I don’t know whether or not GF was being sincere. I’ve encountered far more people who were not.

I posted a relatively long comment regarding my thoughts on the rest of your post. I understand not many people will agree with me.

I think you previously said you’ve dealt with such situations many, many times. Am I remembering correctly? May I ask in what capacity? I’m curious about your POV based on experience.

 

[missy1974]

I worry about stealth jurors (one way or the other)

like the AWESOME! juror? lol

 

[Boodles]

Are first responders not supposed to treat people who might have covid?

I thought I heard someone testify that they do CPR but not mouth-to-mouth resuscitation due to Covid.

 

[MadMcGoo]

I think you previously said you’ve dealt with such situations many, many times. Am I remembering correctly? May I ask in what capacity? I’m curious about your POV based on experience.

You remembered correctly. Corrections.

ETA: I have experience beyond that, but the majority of time was this.

 

[Boodles]

I worry about stealth jurors (one way or the other)

Ditto. A few years ago, I would have scoffed at such a thought. These days, I’m not very trusting anymore.

 

[In vino veritas]

I don't think there is anybody that would consider Floyd's behavior as being "high and obnoxious." He immediately asked officer Lane to please not shoot him, he thanked him when he was allowed to sit down, he asked him not to leave him alone, told him he was scared, asked him if he would talk to him, and not once appeared to be aggressive. He thanked them again when they pulled him out of the car and forced him into the prone position.

I don't think it really matters when they determined he "actually couldn't breathe." He had already said so 17 times before being restrained, and the bystanders alerted the officers over and over again, in addition to Floyd's cries for help, while Chauvin continued to kneel on his neck for more than nine minutes.

It actually does matter though. The fact that GF was complaining about his breathing before he was even in the ground lends credence to the fact that something else was at play.... possibly the onset of a heart attack, exacerbated by the drugs in his system. To me, that’s the reasonable doubt for the murder charges at least.
The fact that aid was NEVER rendered provides the conviction for manslaughter. Just MoO!

 

[missy1974]

Is not knowing for sure the cause of death reasonable doubt in this case? The information about the 98% blood oxygen level has me wondering. JMO

Good question... lol I started to answer... and then realized... if you can't even decipher what the cause of death was, can you 'without a doubt' contribute that death to Chauvin? I'm not sure.

The 98% blood oxygen levels... I think the State may have made a misstep on that one. I think it left a lot of unanswered questions. I am not sure why they didn't get Tobin to explain more.

 

[MsBetsy]

We’ll have to agree to disagree on your first paragraph. I don’t know whether or not GF was being sincere. I’ve encountered far more people who were not.

I posted a relatively long comment regarding my thoughts on the rest of your post. I understand not many people will agree with me.

Well, my point is that it does not matter if they "thought" he was sincere or obnoxious. A person reporting not being able to breathe is a potential medical emergency.

Working in the mental health field, I've encountered people who've repeatedly said they couldn't breathe, or were extremely agitated, or thought they were dying. They never did. Yet every time the police or paramedics were called, they always responded as if it were an emergency, despite the fact they had been called numerous times for the same claim.

Imo

 

[MadMcGoo]

Well, my point is that it does not matter if they "thought" he was sincere or obnoxious. A person reporting not being able to breathe is a potential medical emergency.

Working in the mental health field, I've encountered people who've repeatedly said they couldn't breathe, or were extremely agitated, or thought they were dying. They never did. Yet every time the police or paramedics were called, they always responded as if it were an emergency, despite the fact they had been called numerous times for the same claim.

Imo

Yes, we absolutely agree on this. It should be handled as such. They upgraded the call, which I assume was their way of labeling it an emergency. I honestly don’t understand why nothing was done when we can all see something should have been done.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Good question... lol I started to answer... and then realized... if you can't even decipher what the cause of death was, can you 'without a doubt' contribute that death to Chauvin? I'm not sure.

The 98% blood oxygen levels... I think the State may have made a misstep on that one. I think it left a lot of unanswered questions. I am not sure why they didn't get Tobin to explain more.

Maybe Dr Fowler is right in saying that the death should be classified as "undetermined".

Chauvin trial: Floyd's death should be 'undetermined', defence expert says

Forensic pathologist David Fowler told the court in Minnesota that the cause of Mr Floyd's death was not clear.
"I would fall back to undetermined, in this particular case," Dr Fowler testified.

Chauvin trial: Floyd's death should be 'undetermined', defence expert says

 

[MadMcGoo]

Maybe Dr Fowler is right in saying that the death should be classified as "undetermined".

Chauvin trial: Floyd's death should be 'undetermined', defence expert says


Chauvin trial: Floyd's death should be 'undetermined', defence expert says

I agree with this. I think he made good points here. It’s the first time I questioned it.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

That is one of the reasons I would say “not guilty”. If he really could not breathe at that time, I have a hard time believing it was due to anxiety. It would be interesting to compare his OD symptoms from a few months prior to this episode. His girlfriend said they felt like they were going to die.

all moo.

According to his girlfriend, during the drug OD he had foam coming from his mouth and he complained of stomach pain. He felt like he was going to die.

During the arrest he had foam coming from his mouth and he said his stomach hurt when they had him on the ground. While they were trying to get him into the car he felt like he was going to die. He had the same symptoms as he had just two months prior, when he was hospitalized for 5 days from a drug overdose. IMO

 

[MsBetsy]

He was a police officer, not a medical provider. He wasn’t responding to a medical distress call.

I thought police officers were considered first responders, or at least have the same training. If he wasn't comfortable giving Floyd rescue breaths or CPR, then why not allow the firefighter to try? She seemed perfectly willing to me. Why pull out the mace as she was telling them to check his pulse?

 

[missy1974]

According to his girlfriend, during the drug OD he had foam coming from his mouth and he complained of stomach pain. He felt like he was going to die.

During the arrest he had foam coming from his mouth and he said his stomach hurt when they had him on the ground. While they were trying to get him into the car he felt like he was going to die. He had the same symptoms as he had just two months prior, when he was hospitalized for 5 days from a drug overdose. IMO

do you remember if we heard what he OD'd on in March? was it fentanyl/meth mix? or just fentanyl? or unknown?

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Maybe Dr Fowler is right in saying that the death should be classified as "undetermined".

Chauvin trial: Floyd's death should be 'undetermined', defence expert says


Chauvin trial: Floyd's death should be 'undetermined', defence expert says

And he also said that emergency aid should have been given.