George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

[kittythehare]

Did DC have any friends at all?
Was he hugely unpopular as a person and as a colleague?
I'm still trying to humanise him and separate him from his cruelty but it's an uphill struggle.

 

[misgrn]

I have been following and reading all the comments but never had much to add. Thank you all for your thoughts, keeping info up to date and such. It helped me keep up and understand things from other sides.

I went through multiple years of a safety crisis management training (that taught restraints/holds, de-esclation techniques, and such) In real life, it rarely ever went down in such a perfect way like it did when we were training. I definitely understand things get very different when in real situations.

We had a 1 minute time limit to prone restraints and a bunch of restrictions with regards to whom it could be used on. We were trained that all those restrictions were due to the risk of causing breathing issues and risk of positional asphyxiation. I worked with teens so different obviously than what police officers can use and experience. It seems odd though that police officers would not have at least basic training in the dangers of prone position holds/restraints. They would be more likely to use that position and imo there is more danger due to the way they can use body weight. I also wonder if or why DC wasn't warned of those dangers after the previous extended use of a prone position restraint in that previous arrest.

The thing I can't let go of is how much it was drilled into us to always have someone tracking time, the client's conditions, etc. It became automatic to us and I never saw someone forget it. I don't understand how DC with all his years of experience didn't recognize that someone should be monitoring GF's breathing, color, pulse after the hold continued on. He never mentions it that I heard. If I had my knee on someone's neck or upper back, that would be a huge concern. Maybe they aren't trained to track that stuff??? Maybe this is an unfair judgment on my part.

We never even hear DC ask about GF's condition I want to know why but I know we will likely never know the answer.

I don't think DC went into it intending to kill GF that day but I do think his actions and inactions demonstrate an indifference (at minimu) to GF. I think he is guilty.

 

[SouthAussie]

Innocent People Who Plead Guilty

We all know that innocent people can be found guilty of crimes they didn’t commit, but innocent people might actually choose to plead guilty simply because they’re afraid to go to trial. The fear is based on a simple fact — people who go to trial and are convicted get much heavier sentences than those who plea-bargain.

Innocent People Who Plead Guilty

And then there are other opinions ....

Defendants plead guilty for a variety of reasons, but by far the two most important are that they actually are guilty of something and the punishment will be exponentially greater if a jury convicts than if the case ends with a plea bargain.

Why Derek Chauvin Should Plead Guilty

 

[GarAndTeed]

He ended it with a Doctor saying that GF had 95% oxygen saturation. The same doctor that said he died from hypoxia.

I'm behind & may very well be missing something, but I watched the ambulance footage, and the paramedics inserted an airway and had GF on O2 (likely 100%) from less than a minute after he was placed in the ambulance. If I remember correctly, the arterial blood gases were drawn at the hospital. So, IMO, there's a good chance that his 02 levels went back up by the time they did the stick & ran the gases. Anyone else's medical knowledge is more than welcome!

 

[GarAndTeed]

I think Thao did a good job standing guard and watching the bystanders. He said he never noticed Floyd was in distress or that he had stopped breathing so he must have been focusing all of his attention on them. I heard him tell them to get back two times and each time they did. That was around the time Chauvin threatened them with mace. It appeared to me they had the situation under control.

He did a good job technically, but I thought his attitude sucked. His snarky comments were unnecessary and glib, IMO. Also, it's beyond me that people are saying the firefighter shouldn't have been believed because she didn't show ID- as a former EMT, 1) you'd never lie about that- why would you? Seriously? and 2) we were always taught to identify ourselves as EMTs and offer help; I never had a bad experience with LE, whether they needed our help or we needed theirs. JMO.

 

[GarAndTeed]

You are describing a normal, to you, panic attack and that is fine.
However if you were being pushed into an extremely narrow space, forcefully, and with someone's hands on the back of your neck for some of that time, it might add considerably to your distress.
The evidence photos of the rear seat in that police vehicle were EXTREMELY narrow.
In an effort to avoid being placed into an area that would greatly exacerbate your condition by virtue of it's size and your size, could you say you wouldn't resist being brought into such a terrifying state?

I don't you, personally, I mean 'one'.
It was GF's body, not one of ours. He was big.

Agreed @kittythehare ! I usually do ok, even with bad panic disorder. But when I had my car wreck and was strapped onto a backboard with a cervical collar, I started freaking out. In the ER, naturally, folks with more serious conditions had to be treated before me; after 45 minutes or so of laying there not being able to move and quietly crying, I started begging the staff to get me off that board. Not screaming, but definitely not talking quietly...it was awful!

 

[dmac55]

I believe that the duty to care rises significantly when a person is being restrained for any reason, (in police custody, in a psychiatric facility, etc), and the person is unable to protect themselves due to being restrained
I don't remember that being brought up during the trial, so I'm guessing it's just my opinion and not a real thing

 

[GarAndTeed]

Did DC have any friends at all?
Was he hugely unpopular as a person and as a colleague?
I'm still trying to humanise him and separate him from his cruelty but it's an uphill struggle.

Officer Who Pressed His Knee on George Floyd’s Neck Drew Scrutiny Long Before
This article might give you some insight @kittythehare ...
<snip>
Yet dozens of interviews with acquaintances depict a police officer who seemed to operate at an emotional distance from those around him. Mr. Chauvin was a quiet and rigid workaholic with poor people skills and a tendency to overreact — with intoxicated people, especially — when a less aggressive stance might have led to a better outcome, interviews show.He was awkward. Other officers often didn’t like him or didn’t know him. He didn’t go to parties and didn’t seem to have many friends. Some neighbors knew so little about him that they didn’t even know he was a police officer until after his arrest. <snip>

 

[kittythehare]

Officer Who Pressed His Knee on George Floyd’s Neck Drew Scrutiny Long Before
This article might give you some insight @kittythehare ...
<snip>
Yet dozens of interviews with acquaintances depict a police officer who seemed to operate at an emotional distance from those around him. Mr. Chauvin was a quiet and rigid workaholic with poor people skills and a tendency to overreact — with intoxicated people, especially — when a less aggressive stance might have led to a better outcome, interviews show.He was awkward. Other officers often didn’t like him or didn’t know him. He didn’t go to parties and didn’t seem to have many friends. Some neighbors knew so little about him that they didn’t even know he was a police officer until after his arrest. <snip>

Yeah, I read it and one other and neither offered a light on his spirit.. but there must be more, I tell myself, or is there?
How is he gonna cope in prison if that is his fate?
Maybe, if I sat with him I would find something, right now I cannot.

Watching that video of the 2019 arrest of Floyd, even though he was totally wasted, endeared him to me.. We all know somebody like that who just loses it when you need them to act normal.. even his friend was trying to get him to stay quiet.

But I know George Floyd was so much more than a stoner too..

It's all playing out like darkness vs light- a warm loving all too human man has been killed by a seemingly cold indifferent man...
It's not a level playing field, it never was.

A little kid, a 13 year old was shot by a policeman a few days ago and we saw the bodycam footage and the audio and the sheer grief of the officer who did everything in his power to revive that child is such a different story..

Common sense tells me it is not as simple as the story I am painting because life is not like that and we shouldn't really need it to be for our own personal catharsis.

 

[GarAndTeed]

But I know George Floyd was so much more than a stoner too..

It's all playing out like darkness vs light- a warm loving all too human man has been killed by a seemingly cold indifferent man...
It's not a level playing field, it never was.

I get so frustrated when I hear folks say that GF deserved what happened because he was a drug addict. I'm a recovering alcoholic & addict; I did a lot of crappy & stupid things when I was using. But that didn't define me as a person. I believe all addicts have the possibility of redemption. I'd hate to be defined only by my behavior when I was drinking and using (which hasn't been the case for well over 20 years now). Yes, I'm responsible for my actions then; but I made amends, and moved on. Addiction is an illness- not a character defect. IMO

 

[ACE422]

Someone with a documented history of violence, drug use and close ties to a local murder tried to enter our house tonight - he was unsuccessful and left when said I was calling the cops and my husband was getting his gun. He did enter our neighbor’s house - just walked right in. The cops arrested him eventually. He had an active warrant.
It took several hours and some medication to help me fall asleep. I just woke from a horrendous nightmare I don’t care to describe. But in it, I tried to render life saving aid to the man who just attempted to kill my husband.
I may have to back of WS for a while. These cases combined with the continuing violence/crime in our world today is overwhelming for my psyche.

 

[SouthAussie]

Someone with a documented history of violence, drug use and close ties to a local murder tried to enter our house tonight - he was unsuccessful and left when said I was calling the cops and my husband was getting his gun. He did enter our neighbor’s house - just walked right in. The cops arrested him eventually. He had an active warrant.
It took several hours and some medication to help me fall asleep. I just woke from a horrendous nightmare I don’t care to describe. But in it, I tried to render life saving aid to the man who just attempted to kill my husband.
I may have to back of WS for a while. These cases combined with the continuing violence/crime in our world today is overwhelming for my psyche.

That's horrible, and very scary. Time to plant flowers, and enjoy the sunshine. Take good care of yourself.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Someone with a documented history of violence, drug use and close ties to a local murder tried to enter our house tonight - he was unsuccessful and left when said I was calling the cops and my husband was getting his gun. He did enter our neighbor’s house - just walked right in. The cops arrested him eventually. He had an active warrant.
It took several hours and some medication to help me fall asleep. I just woke from a horrendous nightmare I don’t care to describe. But in it, I tried to render life saving aid to the man who just attempted to kill my husband.
I may have to back of WS for a while. These cases combined with the continuing violence/crime in our world today is overwhelming for my psyche.

((Hugs)) I cannot fathom what you are going through.. in just the past few hours. Take care of yourself and be wrapped in the safe and loving arms of friends and family.

Yeppers, this would be a good time to listen to your inner voice to back off WS cases and take care of YOU.

 

[misgrn]

Someone with a documented history of violence, drug use and close ties to a local murder tried to enter our house tonight - he was unsuccessful and left when said I was calling the cops and my husband was getting his gun. He did enter our neighbor’s house - just walked right in. The cops arrested him eventually. He had an active warrant.
It took several hours and some medication to help me fall asleep. I just woke from a horrendous nightmare I don’t care to describe. But in it, I tried to render life saving aid to the man who just attempted to kill my husband.
I may have to back of WS for a while. These cases combined with the continuing violence/crime in our world today is overwhelming for my psyche.

I cannot even imagine all the things you are feeling right now. I am so sorry you had to experience that. Take care of yourself!

 

[turaj]

"If, in fact, Derek Chauvin is acquitted, he could still face federal criminal civil rights charges. We do know that a federal grand jury has been meeting to consider those charges. And if, in fact, he is charged and convicted in federal court, he could face up to life in prison."

I wonder if this is what Chauvin was trying to avoid with his former plea. A potential lengthy federal sentence.
It seems he had asked for immunity against prosecution on federal charges if his plea was accepted.

People don't generally try for a plea deal unless they are attempting to avoid something worse. imo

that is exactly one of the reasons for the plea deal.

 

[turaj]

Did DC have any friends at all?
Was he hugely unpopular as a person and as a colleague?
I'm still trying to humanise him and separate him from his cruelty but it's an uphill struggle.

good question...have not heard anyone say anything positive about him...given his nature to not communicate well he left people cold and detached...a look that is reflected on May 25th in his pose on top of GF. It will be interesting to see if anyone will show up for sentencing...so far reports are that some Asian women showing up in the "chair"...probably related to his wife or maybe even his wife?

 

[bluebird69]

good question...have not heard anyone say anything positive about him...given his nature to not communicate well he left people cold and detached...a look that is reflected on May 25th in his pose on top of GF. It will be interesting to see if anyone will show up for sentencing...so far reports are that some Asian women showing up in the "chair"...probably related to his wife or maybe even his wife?

Again as I mentioned before, I suspect not many would wish to speak well of him in the current climate. It takes a brave person to publicly stand their ground in such a situation. He did seem comfortable with his lawyer when he briefly requested his 5th. But his wife did divorce him.Not to disagree with previous comments at all JMO

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I had never seen this transcript before. Whoa, so different when transcribed. Is this an exhibit that jury will see as usually the courts don't allow?

Ummmm, when I found someone dead, I said "he's gone". LE said to friends such...

Page 44 of this transcript.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/do...cript-from-the-body-camera-of-J-Alexander.pdf

 

[turaj]

Again as I mentioned before, I suspect not many would wish to speak well of him in the current climate. It takes a brave person to publicly stand their ground in such a situation. He did seem comfortable with his lawyer when he briefly requested his 5th. But his wife did divorce him.Not to disagree with previous comments at all JMO

I think someone can step up and try to point out that up to this point he has led a life of service with no past criminal record. He does have a father living in St. Paul..a professional man with a CPA firm...as for the divorce media reported that this was to protect what assets that they had...don't really know about that. I don't think anything that anyone can say will make much difference...I think he will get at the higher end of the recommended sentence. I think that is all up to the judge in this case but not sure how this goes in Mn. I also don't really think anyone will come forward...in fact he may be estranged from his father and mother left his life early on. There is a 1/2 sister somewhere ....again not sure of any relationship there. Sort of sad life which for all intent is over.

 

[bluebird69]

I think someone can step up and try to point out that up to this point he has led a life of service with no past criminal record. He does have a father living in St. Paul..a professional man with a CPA firm...as for the divorce media reported that this was to protect what assets that they had...don't really know about that. I don't think anything that anyone can say will make much difference...I think he will get at the higher end of the recommended sentence. I think that is all up to the judge in this case but not sure how this goes in Mn. I also don't really think anyone will come forward...in fact he may be estranged from his father and mother left his life early on. There is a 1/2 sister somewhere ....again not sure of any relationship there. Sort of sad life which for all intent is over.

Oh I totally agree it is for the jury to decide based on the facts, and it does seem like his life was rather sad