George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General discussion #2

[iluvmua]

Its possible but there is NO evidence of that :drumroll:

Something had to <modsnip> Trayvon off so much that he broke GZ's nose and started hitting his head against the sidewalk.

 

[Schuby]

I understand what you are saying, but since TM is the one that is dead, IMHO, he also had reason to fear for his life. How do we know that TM did not see the gun and feel terrified of a strange man with a gun?

If you're asking is it possible that TM saw the gun and responded by wailing on GZ, yes, it is possible. Does that make sense to me? No.

 

[Karmady]

I have a question.

A few of you have referenced a witness (or witnesses) who saw TM on top of GZ, or saw him being beaten.

Who are they?
And why is there so much issue about GZ lying about it if there are actual witnesses?

The eyewitness is the neighbor, John. I don't know why there's an issue about George lying. John didn't see the start of the incident, but Gilbreath (sp?) for the State has already testified that the State has no evidence of who started it.

 

[Schuby]

IMO, unless someone is a police officer or other position of authority granted to them in the "normal channels" (owner/manager of property for example)...you don't get to demand what I am doing, anywhere, anytime. If you tell me you are NW, then I tell you I live here...that needs to be the end of it. You don't get to demand otherwise. We all know criminals SAY all sorts of things in order to get you to give them what they want. They are utility man, they are repair man, etc.

Do you give up any and all information just because someone on a dark rainy night follows you and then demands it of you?? I SURE AS HELL HOPE NOT!!!

And if you are following me, and not telling me why with a good answer...and I feel threatened, I get to defend myself.

This whole case is self-defense and/or stand your ground (yes, I realize they didn't go for the SYG defense, but many are surprised why not).

Why can't TM be the one defending himself...or the one "standing his ground". Because GZ was AT THE VERY LEAST in the beginning, the aggressor - the one doing the following - even if you say that TM became the aggressor. And when TM said "Why are you following me?" what did GZ say he said? Do we know?

We allow cops to do this, because they are trained and paid to do it. GZ was NOT!!

This is how I see this. Race is not the main point for me, though I see where it falls here.

He is allowed to defend himself, but you can't start a physical confrontation and call it defense.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Something had to piss Trayvon off so much that he broke GZ's nose and started hitting his head against the sidewalk.

This is something that really speaks to me. He could have just bashed GZ in the face and ran, But he didn't. He stayed and got him on the ground and bashed his head into the sidewalk.

 

[iluvmua]

IMO, unless someone is a police officer or other position of authority granted to them in the "normal channels" (owner/manager of property for example)...you don't get to demand what I am doing, anywhere, anytime. If you tell me you are NW, then I tell you I live here...that needs to be the end of it. You don't get to demand otherwise. We all know criminals SAY all sorts of things in order to get you to give them what they want. They are utility man, they are repair man, etc.

Do you give up any and all information just because someone on a dark rainy night follows you and then demands it of you?? I SURE AS HELL HOPE NOT!!!

And if you are following me, and not telling me why with a good answer...and I feel threatened, I get to defend myself.

This whole case is self-defense and/or stand your ground (yes, I realize they didn't go for the SYG defense, but many are surprised why not).

Why can't TM be the one defending himself...or the one "standing his ground". Because GZ was AT THE VERY LEAST in the beginning, the aggressor - the one doing the following - even if you say that TM became the aggressor. And when TM said "Why are you following me?" what did GZ say he said? Do we know?

We allow cops to do this, because they are trained and paid to do it. GZ was NOT!!

This is how I see this. Race is not the main point for me, though I see where it falls here.

There is no evidence of that.

Rachel (AKA Dee Dee) says that George responded with "What are you doing around here".

 

[tinkabella]

Something had to <modsnip>Trayvon off so much that he broke GZ's nose and started hitting his head against the sidewalk.

It probably was a weirdo following him who believed he was some kind of authority figure. maybe it was someone sticking his bulbous nose where it doesn't belong. maybe be is was the fact that someone already decided that this child was an "*******" who "always got away" and needed to be dealt with. There is NO evidence that his nose was broken. maybe he should've reported this "suspicious" black male and took himself to target as he planned...hmm. His nose was just as broken as jodi's finger. :drumroll:

 

[lisalei321]

Something had to <modsnip> Trayvon off so much that he broke GZ's nose and started hitting his head against the sidewalk.

Would you please provide a link that GZ had a broken nose?

I don't recall seeing that in any of the discovery.

Sent from my LG Spirit using Tapatalk 2

 

[cityslick]

If TM was a 17 year old girl and some strange man started asking her questions, I would expect her to do everything in her power to get away from him, even if she had to throw blows to do so. Would people think she hit him because she was "<modsnip> that he was asking questions or glad that she warded off a potential attacker? Why should a 17 year old boy feel any less threatened?

But he wasn't a girl, so it's irrelevant. People wouldn't think it if TM as a girl because society has stereotypes on what girls would and would not do. Yet I could point to thousands of cases where a female is the aggressor, even against another man.

 

[Irisha]

It's not that he shouldn't feel threatened, it's that there is reason to believe that how he responded to the situation put GZ in fear for his life. If GZ had been following a 17 year old girl it is unlikely she would have been shot because it is unlikely she would be capable of beating him to the point of fear for his life.

Trayvon could have responded with force if GZ put TM in a life threatening situation. Fearing for his life.

 

[gxm]

That's all well and good in practice but in reality maybe not so much. It's very easy to say he should of done that but it's very different when someone is on top of you, hitting you in the face. Fear is usually the first reaction, not logic.

I agree. I'm so glad I didn't have a weapon when I was attacked. The fear is so strong once you realize that the sound you are hearing is your own head being beaten against a hard surface. I believe I would have done anything to get my attacker off of me. (And FWIW, I had no visible signs of the lumps and bruises the attack left on my head, my hair covered them up.)

 

[corundogs]

He is allowed to defend himself, but you can't start a physical confrontation and call it defense.

But why isn't GZ's following him, being the aggressor, what put me on the defense?

And like I said, why TM said "Why are you following me?" (stated a few different ways, but GZ said this is what happened) what was GZ's response?

GZ told us what TM did...what did GZ do?

Did he identify himself as NW, saying the police are on their way and we will let them sort this out?

If so, how did TM respond?

I still feel that no one has the right to demand my information or know what I am doing anywhere...except someone in authority. I have even tried to not supply it to them - because I truly was doing nothing wrong (had police called on me because the business didn't want my Service Dog in their establishment).

Guess what. I MUST GIVE IT TO THEM!!! No choice. Or I am going downtown and can give it there.

But no one else has the right to demand that. If I refuse to give it and you decide to try to detain me, I get to defend myself.

I can't prove - yet anyway - one way or another. However, it seems like for some people, this CANNOT possibly be the case.

And for me, it absolutely - and even more, is likely - what happened.

 

[Schuby]

Would you please provide a link that GZ had a broken nose?

I don't recall seeing that in any of the discovery.

Sent from my LG Spirit using Tapatalk 2

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...ds-light-injuries-trayvon/t/story?id=16353532

 

[cityslick]

IMO, unless someone is a police officer or other position of authority granted to them in the "normal channels" (owner/manager of property for example)...you don't get to demand what I am doing, anywhere, anytime. If you tell me you are NW, then I tell you I live here...that needs to be the end of it. You don't get to demand otherwise. We all know criminals SAY all sorts of things in order to get you to give them what they want. They are utility man, they are repair man, etc.

Do you give up any and all information just because someone on a dark rainy night follows you and then demands it of you?? I SURE AS HELL HOPE NOT!!!

And if you are following me, and not telling me why with a good answer...and I feel threatened, I get to defend myself.

This whole case is self-defense and/or stand your ground (yes, I realize they didn't go for the SYG defense, but many are surprised why not).

Why can't TM be the one defending himself...or the one "standing his ground". Because GZ was AT THE VERY LEAST in the beginning, the aggressor - the one doing the following - even if you say that TM became the aggressor. And when TM said "Why are you following me?" what did GZ say he said? Do we know?

We allow cops to do this, because they are trained and paid to do it. GZ was NOT!!

This is how I see this. Race is not the main point for me, though I see where it falls here.

So you think if someone asks you the question 'who are you'? That gives you the right to start a fight with them (IE: defend yourself)? I don't believe that's how the law works.

 

[iluvmua]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...cian-zimmerman-had-broken-nose-black-eye?lite

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

It probably was a weirdo following him who believed he was some kind of authority figure. maybe it was someone sticking his bulbous nose where it doesn't belong. maybe be is was the fact that someone already decided that this child was an "*******" who "always got away" and needed to be dealt with. There is NO evidence that his nose was broken. maybe he should've reported this "suspicious" black male and took himself to target as he planned...hmm. His nose was just as broken as jodi's finger. :drumroll:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/03/george-zimmerman-bloody-face-photo_n_2234551.html

There is proof that he was beaten and his nose is definitely abused there.

He is not making up his injuries. If anything he down played them.

 

[Karmady]

Would you please provide a link that GZ had a broken nose?

I don't recall seeing that in any of the discovery.

Sent from my LG Spirit using Tapatalk 2

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/16/justice/florida-teen-shooting/

 

[corundogs]

I agree. I'm so glad I didn't have a weapon when I was attacked. The fear is so strong once you realize that the sound you are hearing is your own head being beaten against a hard surface. I believe I would have done anything to get my attacker off of me. (And FWIW, I had no visible signs of the lumps and bruises the attack left on my head, my hair covered them up.)

Except GZ had no hair.

 

[cityslick]

But why isn't GZ's following him, being the aggressor, what put me on the defense?

And like I said, why TM said "Why are you following me?" (stated a few different ways, but GZ said this is what happened) what was GZ's response?

GZ told us what TM did...what did GZ do?

Did he identify himself as NW, saying the police are on their way and we will let them sort this out?

If so, how did TM respond?

I still feel that no one has the right to demand my information or know what I am doing anywhere...except someone in authority. I have even tried to not supply it to them - because I truly was doing nothing wrong (had police called on me because the business didn't want my Service Dog in their establishment).

Guess what. I MUST GIVE IT TO THEM!!! No choice. Or I am going downtown and can give it there.

But no one else has the right to demand that. If I refuse to give it and you decide to try to detain me, I get to defend myself.

I can't prove - yet anyway - one way or another. However, it seems like for some people, this CANNOT possibly be the case.

And for me, it absolutely - and even more, is likely - what happened.

BBM

I don't think any of us can prove who started the actual fight. But if you can't prove who started the actual fight, how do you prove GZ is guilty of murder, simply because someone is dead? Again, that's not how the law works.

 

[iluvmua]

But why isn't GZ's following him, being the aggressor, what put me on the defense?

And like I said, why TM said "Why are you following me?" (stated a few different ways, but GZ said this is what happened) what was GZ's response?

GZ told us what TM did...what did GZ do?

Did he identify himself as NW, saying the police are on their way and we will let them sort this out?

If so, how did TM respond?

I still feel that no one has the right to demand my information or know what I am doing anywhere...except someone in authority. I have even tried to not supply it to them - because I truly was doing nothing wrong (had police called on me because the business didn't want my Service Dog in their establishment).

Guess what. I MUST GIVE IT TO THEM!!! No choice. Or I am going downtown and can give it there.

But no one else has the right to demand that. If I refuse to give it and you decide to try to detain me, I get to defend myself.

I can't prove - yet anyway - one way or another. However, it seems like for some people, this CANNOT possibly be the case.

And for me, it absolutely - and even more, is likely - what happened.

He supposedly said "What are you doing around here".