Gerard Baden Clay's murder appeal

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Good post Flinders....it doesn't stop, in fact it's getting so much worse and it's happening nearly every day now and more violently.

What will be the lesson if Baden-Clod wins???

God forbids.
 
Just a reminder:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...clays-high-court-outline-20160229-gn6qm6.html

DPP replies to Baden-Clay's High Court outline
March 1 2016 AAP

"An appeal is also warranted so the High Court can examine the issues arising from a defendant later raising an alternative version of events not put to the jury at trial.

The DPP says it poses questions of how an appeal court should treat an alternative explanation when the accused deliberately and tactically excluded it from their defence at the time" ...

Just a reminder, there are important precedents to be considered by the High Court in this case. Hopefully, the High Court is diligent about it's responsibility here. My opinion only.
 
"An appeal is also warranted so the High Court can examine the issues arising from a defendant later raising an alternative version of events not put to the jury at trial.

The DPP says it poses questions of how an appeal court should treat an alternative explanation when the accused deliberately and tactically excluded it from their defence at the time" ...

My opinion only but I believe this is going to go down like a lead balloon in the HCA and the applicant is going to receive a severe dressing down by the Bench.

We have 2 cornerstones of modern criminal law at play here, the burden of proof resting with the Crown and the right of the accused to silence (or to say as little or as much as they want). The fact that an alternative theory that was relied upon during the appeal wasn't advanced at trial is totally immaterial, it is incumbent on the jury to consider any and all possibilities which may be consistent with innocence of the accused. Straight from the Bench Book -

If there is any reasonable possibility consistent with innocence, it is your duty
to find the defendant not guilty. This follows from the requirement that guilt
must be established beyond reasonable doubt.


Note that it doesn't say 'you must only consider the alternative scenarios advanced during this trial', if this was the case, the many cases where the defendant relies totally on the Crown proving their case as opposed to giving evidence themselves, would inevitably result in conviction as no alternate theory exists. Very simplistic I know but imagine the following - A murder case is prosecuted entirely on the basis of 1 witness who saw the defendant in the vicinity of the crime and no other people were present, no other evidence exists whatsoever. Confident of acquittal, and rightly so, the defence does not call any witnesses or cross examine any prosecution witnesses. The only theory proposed to the jury is that the defendant was the only person observed in the vicinity and therefore must be the killer. If what the ODPP is proposing held true, the jury would be prohibited from speculating on ANY other reasonable theory (the accused was on his nightly run or was going to the service station to buy a bottle of milk etc) and conviction would be the ultimate result despite there being any number of reasonable hypotheses consistent with the innocence of the accused. As I've said before, we must all remember that the burden rests with the Crown to prove guilt and the jury must consider ALL reasonable possibilities, including those not advanced at trial, during deliberations.

You might be critical of the tactics used by the defence but we must remember that they were defending a charge of murder, had the ODPP elected to proceed with only a manslaughter charge you would have seen the trial run a very different course indeed.

As for the appeal outlining (in part) financial pressures playing a part in Allison's death, this is a very long bow simply because Allison's life insurance was emphatically disavowed by the prosecution as a motive for murder during the trial. With there being no financial benefit outside of this policy (indeed, Allison's death would almost certainly have had an adverse affect on Gerard's finances), it genuinely boggles my mind why the submission to the HCA makes any mention of it whatsoever.

As for post offence conduct being intractably neutral (as per the QCA), there are any number of authorities that can be relied upon (some of which I have previously linked) where an unnatural death has occurred and the perpetrator has gone to great lengths to conceal their involvement despite the death being totally accidental. The community might consider this behaviour morally abhorrent but it's far more common than you might imagine. Again, I cannot possibly see how the Crown could possibly argue otherwise.

In my opinion, if a private citizen (as opposed to the Crown) were to persist with applications or appeals of such limited merit, they would run the very real risk of finding themselves declared a vexatious litigant. While obviously I feel for Allison's family, friends and Allison herself, at face value this looks to be a politically motivated application and one that would NEVER have occurred had the case not been one with such a high profile. I do feel for Byrne QC, he was between a rock and a hard place and while I don't know if the QLD Government placed any pressure on him to pursue the matter further, there must have been tremendous pressure on a personal level knowing that the majority of the state, if not the country, were outraged at the downgrading of the charge (despite it being legally sound in the opinion of literally every qualified person I've spoken to). Do you accept the decision of the QCA or do you proceed with the flimsiest of cases, knowing full well that you have Buckley's of being successful (and chewing through literally millions of dollars in taxpayer funds in the process) but with the blessing of the majority of the community? It would have been a tremendously difficult decision and I don't envy him whatsoever.

And just quickly, I know many on here were outraged that a jury verdict could be overturned but let me leave you with the following recent case in the NT to consider -

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/murder-verdict-overturned-in-darren-ashley-case/7275092

3 jurors, that's one quarter of the jury, totally misunderstood or even worse, blatantly ignored fundamental legal principles that were drilled into them numerous times during the trial. I will concede that juries usually get it right, but they are FAR from infallible. Just 1 person, nevermind 3, has the potential to taint the entire process and see someone spend the rest of their life in prison when they should have been acquitted. How many times does something like this occur when it is not brought to the attention of the court? I genuinely shudder at the thought.
 
My opinion only but I believe this is going to go down like a lead balloon in the HCA and the applicant is going to receive a severe dressing down by the Bench.

We have 2 cornerstones of modern criminal law at play here, the burden of proof resting with the Crown and the right of the accused to silence (or to say as little or as much as they want). The fact that an alternative theory that was relied upon during the appeal wasn't advanced at trial is totally immaterial, it is incumbent on the jury to consider any and all possibilities which may be consistent with innocence of the accused. Straight from the Bench Book -

If there is any reasonable possibility consistent with innocence, it is your duty
to find the defendant not guilty. This follows from the requirement that guilt
must be established beyond reasonable doubt.


Note that it doesn't say 'you must only consider the alternative scenarios advanced during this trial', if this was the case, the many cases where the defendant relies totally on the Crown proving their case as opposed to giving evidence themselves, would inevitably result in conviction as no alternate theory exists. Very simplistic I know but imagine the following - A murder case is prosecuted entirely on the basis of 1 witness who saw the defendant in the vicinity of the crime and no other people were present, no other evidence exists whatsoever. Confident of acquittal, and rightly so, the defence does not call any witnesses or cross examine any prosecution witnesses. The only theory proposed to the jury is that the defendant was the only person observed in the vicinity and therefore must be the killer. If what the ODPP is proposing held true, the jury would be prohibited from speculating on ANY other reasonable theory (the accused was on his nightly run or was going to the service station to buy a bottle of milk etc) and conviction would be the ultimate result despite there being any number of reasonable hypotheses consistent with the innocence of the accused. As I've said before, we must all remember that the burden rests with the Crown to prove guilt and the jury must consider ALL reasonable possibilities, including those not advanced at trial, during deliberations.

You might be critical of the tactics used by the defence but we must remember that they were defending a charge of murder, had the ODPP elected to proceed with only a manslaughter charge you would have seen the trial run a very different course indeed.

As for the appeal outlining (in part) financial pressures playing a part in Allison's death, this is a very long bow simply because Allison's life insurance was emphatically disavowed by the prosecution as a motive for murder during the trial. With there being no financial benefit outside of this policy (indeed, Allison's death would almost certainly have had an adverse affect on Gerard's finances), it genuinely boggles my mind why the submission to the HCA makes any mention of it whatsoever.

As for post offence conduct being intractably neutral (as per the QCA), there are any number of authorities that can be relied upon (some of which I have previously linked) where an unnatural death has occurred and the perpetrator has gone to great lengths to conceal their involvement despite the death being totally accidental. The community might consider this behaviour morally abhorrent but it's far more common than you might imagine. Again, I cannot possibly see how the Crown could possibly argue otherwise.

In my opinion, if a private citizen (as opposed to the Crown) were to persist with applications or appeals of such limited merit, they would run the very real risk of finding themselves declared a vexatious litigant. While obviously I feel for Allison's family, friends and Allison herself, at face value this looks to be a politically motivated application and one that would NEVER have occurred had the case not been one with such a high profile. I do feel for Byrne QC, he was between a rock and a hard place and while I don't know if the QLD Government placed any pressure on him to pursue the matter further, there must have been tremendous pressure on a personal level knowing that the majority of the state, if not the country, were outraged at the downgrading of the charge (despite it being legally sound in the opinion of literally every qualified person I've spoken to). Do you accept the decision of the QCA or do you proceed with the flimsiest of cases, knowing full well that you have Buckley's of being successful (and chewing through literally millions of dollars in taxpayer funds in the process) but with the blessing of the majority of the community? It would have been a tremendously difficult decision and I don't envy him whatsoever.

And just quickly, I know many on here were outraged that a jury verdict could be overturned but let me leave you with the following recent case in the NT to consider -

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/murder-verdict-overturned-in-darren-ashley-case/7275092

3 jurors, that's one quarter of the jury, totally misunderstood or even worse, blatantly ignored fundamental legal principles that were drilled into them numerous times during the trial. I will concede that juries usually get it right, but they are FAR from infallible. Just 1 person, nevermind 3, has the potential to taint the entire process and see someone spend the rest of their life in prison when they should have been acquitted. How many times does something like this occur when it is not brought to the attention of the court? I genuinely shudder at the thought.
JMO - The hypothesis of the QCA Judges proposes the possibility that during an altercation between Gerard and Allison, she fell and hit her head and that caused her death.

Points against:

. Not likely to be immediate death;
. If it was immediate death, how could it occur so quickly? What evidence? / No evidence found to suggest death from a blow to her head.
. If still alive, duty of care wasn’t exercised by Gerard to preserve Allison’s life;
. If he erroneously thought she was dead and carried her to the Captiva and transported her, while still alive, out to the bridge, it beggars belief how he would not have noticed she was still alive. She was then left to die.
 
My opinion only but I believe this is going to go down like a lead balloon in the HCA and the applicant is going to receive a severe dressing down by the Bench.

But the fact is JCB, you've been wrong before; and in this matter, I hope you will be again.
 
JCB, I've been a juror on several occasions, once a murder case. I do not believe they get it wrong. And if their decisions can get overturned, then I refuse to go on another jury panel ever again. Jurors are ordinary people and being empanelled is such a drain on emotions. My experience has been that jurors put their heart and soul into their role, and your life is totally consumed by the courts for as long as the case takes. Never mind getting home to feed your cat, picking up kids from school, not knowing how long the case will go on for, no debriefing at the end of it and stuck in a tiny jury room for hours at a time.
 
Apologies if this has already been posted in one of the other threads:


Baden-Clay: Appeal in High Court
29 minutes ago

"A DECISION is set to be announced on whether the High Court’s full bench will examine the controversial Gerard Baden-Clay appeal.

The case has been set down for pronouncement of orders on Thursday in Canberra, when two High Court judges will reveal the fate of the appeal."

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...t/news-story/dc682029a192bdd4eb36cb0fbd4afc56
 
David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 3h3 hours ago
We'll know on Thursday whether the High Court's full bench will examine the Gerard Baden-Clay appeal

This Thursday 12 May 2016 Websleuthers :coffeews: :waiting:
 
But the fact is JCB, you've been wrong before; and in this matter, I hope you will be again.

Quite true, and I'll be wrong many more times into the future. However, barring my opinion that the jury would/could not convict Gerard of murder in the first instance, I think my predictions have been pretty much spot on in relation to this matter. I take no pleasure in this as a life has been lost, a mother and a daughter, but I present my opinion based on my experience in the interests of a balanced argument. No more, no less.

JMO - The hypothesis of the QCA Judges proposes the possibility that during an altercation between Gerard and Allison, she fell and hit her head and that caused her death.

Points against:

. Not likely to be immediate death; Impermissible speculation, cause of death unknown.
. If it was immediate death, how could it occur so quickly? What evidence? / No evidence found to suggest death from a blow to her head. As above.
. If still alive, duty of care wasn’t exercised by Gerard to preserve Allison’s life; Complex legal argument but in any case this failure does not point to intent.
. If he erroneously thought she was dead and carried her to the Captiva and transported her, while still alive, out to the bridge, it beggars belief how he would not have noticed she was still alive. She was then left to die. I have a relative who is a paramedic and we were at a family gathering recently and a young child asked "how do you know if a person is dead?" and the short answer was, sometimes you don't. She recalled a number of cases when she was about to "call it" but the patient was revived. If a medical professional is uncertain of status, it's unreasonable to expect an untrained person in an extreme state of panic to be able to determine whether a person is dead or alive.


Apologies for the brevity, trying to cover as much as possible while on lunch!

JCB, I've been a juror on several occasions, once a murder case. I do not believe they get it wrong. And if their decisions can get overturned, then I refuse to go on another jury panel ever again. Jurors are ordinary people and being empanelled is such a drain on emotions. My experience has been that jurors put their heart and soul into their role, and your life is totally consumed by the courts for as long as the case takes. Never mind getting home to feed your cat, picking up kids from school, not knowing how long the case will go on for, no debriefing at the end of it and stuck in a tiny jury room for hours at a time.

Unfortunately that is analogous to saying that you've run across the freeway a number of times and haven't been run over so therefore nobody who runs across the freeway will get run over. The sample size is just way to small to draw any conclusions. Many juries function as you would hope, calmly, legally and rationally considering the evidence and delivering the appropriate verdict but many don't.

I can assure you that jurors (and juries) do get it wrong, the recent NT case being one where at least a quarter of the jury totally disregarded the instructions of the Judge. The Skaf case is another notable example. To make jury decisions absolute is to invite corruption and mistrust of judicial proceedings. I can assure you that if you were ever wrongly accused of a serious crime that you would be glad for the protection afforded by the appeal process. I accept that jurors often make significant sacrifices both personally and financially but that doesn't mean that your sacrifices entitle your decision to be totally closed to any further scrutiny whatsoever. There are always at least 2 further avenues of appeal and these are unquestionably necessary to ensure the integrity of our judicial system.
 
The legal standard for our Jury system is selection of 12 reasonable people is it not?
This case was judged, at trial, by a properly instructed Jury and a conviction determined.

The issues outlined by the DPP include among others:

i) An appeal is also warranted so the High Court can examine the issues arising from a defendant later raising an alternative version
of events not put to the jury at trial.

ii) The DPP says it poses questions of how an appeal court should treat an alternative explanation when the accused deliberately and tactically excluded it from their defence at the time ...

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...29-gn6qm6.html

You have your opinion JCB, but other WS's may hold a different opinion. IMO the matters outlined by the DPP are important matters to be considered by the High Court.
 
Australian News ‏@LatestAusNews 9m9 minutes ago
High Court to decide on appeal bid against Baden-Clay's murder downgrade: The High Court wil... http://ab.co/1rXwI75 #australia #news

Our wish is for the murder conviction to be reinstated in this case by the High Court of Australia. Reportedly, there are several options open to the High Court including granting the appeal, dismissing the application and the further hearing of oral arguments by both sides.

Our thoughts are with Allison's family, friends, local community and the many victims silenced by domestic violence murder. :rose:
 
Firstly, it could grant special to appeal or refer the matter to the Full Bench.

Alternatively, the leave to appeal could be dismissed and the decision of Queensland's Court of Appeal left to stand.

However the court may also order the matter to proceed to oral argument at a hearing in which each side gets 20 minutes to put forward their case about the application.

Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...determine-baden-clay-fate#0QliD0Z9stmuwxaE.99
 
More than 73,000 people signed a petition for the state's DPP to pursue the case again.

A decision on whether special leave will be granted or refused will be handed down about 10:30am.
 
David MurrayVerified account ‏@TheMurrayD 4m4 minutes ago
Fifteen cases listed in the High Court today. Baden-Clay first and in its own category, decision at 9.45am


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...g/news-story/5bfe1d594a1eaacaf172ac71e2e1fbe6

Gerard Baden-Clay case in High Court listing
May 12, 2016 12:00am
David MurrayThe Courier-Mail

Professor Jeremy Gans from Melbourne Law School said the public should expect no explanation from the nation’s highest court when it ruled. Unless the High Court changed its practice, there would be only a yes or no to whether its full bench will take on one of the most high-profile cases in the state’s history. “At the moment their practice is they don’t give any explanation either way,” he said.
 
Looks like there's a high chance leave will be granted (in which case I'll be totally wrong but that's ok, I'll take it on the chin!).

Separation from the rest of the applications has been the practice in recent times for applications that are to be granted. Could be another reason for it but at this stage I'd suggest it's almost certain that leave will be granted.
 
Looks like there's a high chance leave will be granted (in which case I'll be totally wrong but that's ok, I'll take it on the chin!).

Separation from the rest of the applications has been the practice in recent times for applications that are to be granted. Could be another reason for it but at this stage I'd suggest it's almost certain that leave will be granted.

That predictive opinion was in the Courier Mail article cited above this morning:
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/q...72ac71e2e1fbe6
 
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