Golf club or flashlight or....?

[midwest mama]

Thanks, mw mm.

I found this layout:

Interesting about the interview... I would think it to be a natural tendency to sleep in the bed closest to the door (and I'm not really sure why), but that doesn't necessarily mean it is the norm for every kid. But the interview you dug up certainly nails it down that this is where he slept (when he did).

I'm surprised Patsy would give away the fact that Burke's bed looked made up and that it was out of the ordinary. But then maybe in her mind that was the best way to cover the fact that he actually never went to sleep in it that night. Maybe that's why she indicated she was trying to make it a part of his "morning routine". But who is she talking about when she says, "They made Burke's bed, that's unusual."? Who is the "they" she's talking about?
.
​

IIrc, maybe two accounts I read said both Fleet White and John Ramsey went up to get Burke gathered up to be taken to Fleet's house the morning of the 26th, and elsewhere an account said it was unclear if Fleet accompanied John upstairs to get Burke ready to go. I assumed Patsy was referring to whomever was getting Burke ready to go to the White's house - maybe Fleet and John, or maybe even John and Burke himself having made up the bed.

 

[Whaleshark]

Testimony says that Fleet White made up Burke's bed that morning when helping him get ready to go to his house.

Patsy was probably referring to 'they' as the victim advocates, as she didn't know that Fleet made the bed, and apparently neither did the interviewer when asking Patsy about it that day.

And yes, testimony also shows that Jonbenet would go to the 2nd bed in Burke's room often....

 

[Flatlander]

Okay, I'm not sure. Flatlander is the one who got me to looking at it in the post here (Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Golf club or flashlight or....?). If you are correct, then ACR has it labeled wrong here.

:dunno:
.

Look at the second floor layout:
http://crimeshots.com/RamseyFloor.html
What is wrong in this picture is JARS room; which is labeled Melinda's. Patsy used this room when recovering from chemo. Has acandyrose been wrong all along?

OOOOPS, I was wrong!!! Sorry...According to PMPT, the back room with 3 windows and two beds is Burke's bedroom...another 'joint' bedroom is JAR bedroom....sorry. otg, you was right, BR keeps his bed nitly done....

I always understood that BR had 2 beds and not just one. Seems impossible to source that now. Post #97 by Koldkase is interesting here:
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7606&page=9
From what I have read Koldkase knows his/her stuff!

 

[Linda7NJ]

What you said about BPD is so true. I've wondered if they have more information, but at the same time, their theories are so contradictory that it's like they're just guessing. For instance, the bedwetting theory. What actual evidence from that night backs up this theory? Is there something we haven't heard? I'm not so sure anymore, because of the smeared chocolates . Why wasn't this information added to this theory? because IMO, it should be considered. Did the investigators even know, or did they find out, when they read the book? Or was the information theorized on 'privately', but publicly, was lumped in with bedwetting?

IMO the bed wetting theory is as good if not better than most because in reality children are abused and murdered for bed wetting all the time by a parent/ caregiver.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[otg]

Testimony says that Fleet White made up Burke's bed that morning when helping him get ready to go to his house.

Patsy was probably referring to 'they' as the victim advocates, as she didn't know that Fleet made the bed, and apparently neither did the interviewer when asking Patsy about it that day.

And yes, testimony also shows that Jonbenet would go to the 2nd bed in Burke's room often....

I don’t like to be one who always asks for someone to provide a link for something that is said, but this is not what Kolar writes. I don’t think it would be the first thing he’s gotten wrong (if it is), but I’d really like to know if Burke was sent to his room before the BPD arrived, and he simply sat in his room playing with his new Nintendo. It just doesn't seem believable to me that either John or Burke would make that bed, so it comes down to whether or not FW went with John to Burke's room and he (FW) did it.

Foreign Faction; p. 84-85.

Fleet White volunteered to take Burke to his house, where visiting family were caring for his children. The Fernies decided to send their children there as well.

White indicated that Burke was retrieved from his bedroom by his father, and according to the latter, was told that his sister was missing. He was going to spend some time at his friend’s house, Fleet White Jr., so he quickly dressed and grabbed his new Nintendo computer game before heading out of the house.

I guess I’m late to the ballgame on this because it has apparently been discussed before. If so, what was decided? Do we know, or is it just one more thing that’s left up to the individual to interpret the little bit of evidence we have?

As I recall, no one went to check on Burke and see if he was truly sleeping. They simply took John’s word for it when he told police he was sleeping.
.

 

[otg]

otg - she was struck at the junction of the parietal and temporal plates of the skull, and the bony fracture lines extended backward to the occipital region of the skull. As an effect of the sharp downward pressure from the blow which caused those fractures, bruising occurred in the temporal lobe of the brain (just below the parietal region of the skull). In other words, she was struck in the parietal region of the skull, with fracture lines extending toward the occiput (back of the skull); the result was soft tissue damage (i.e., bruising and hemorrhage) in the temporal lobe of the brain.

Thanks, Bonnette. I take it by your authoritative answer you are in the medical field, or at least more knowledgeable than me (which wouldn’t really have to be very much).

I think you must have meant in the first sentence “at the junction of the parietal and occipital plates,” or am I misunderstanding? The location of the depressed fracture is drawn on the following illustration according to what the AR says. (Otherwise, I completely agree with what you say above.)

As to the size and locations of the bruises, much would depend on whether JB was standing or prone when she was hit, in addition to whether head was shaken. This is the kind of thing that causes mega-"battles of the experts" in court cases.

I don’t understand why her position would affect the size and location of bruises, unless it would be because of additional pressure when not in an upright position. To simplify it as I understand, both the hemorrhaging and the bruising are caused by blood. The hemorrhaging is blood that has leaked out into the spaces between the meninges, and the bruising (noted in the AR on the cerebral cortex) is blood that has leaked from the tiny capillaries within the tissue (gray matter) having been slammed into the skull (or the skull into the tissue). By this, all of the bleeding and bruising makes perfect sense with where we know the head blow was struck. What I'm still having difficulty with is the amount of swelling and the amount of time between the head blow and death. But there must be a lot of information we do not have access to. For one thing, we know Meyer took multiple sections of the brain, as it is noted in the AR.

But I certainly do agree that this all is exactly the sort of thing that would be disputed and argued both ways by experts in court.
.

 

[Bonnette]

Thank you for catching my error, otg. Yes, you're right about what I meant to say/should have said - my brain was racing on ahead of my fingers.

In referring to whether or not JBR was standing or reclining when the bleeding began, I'm thinking of patterns of accumulation of blood - also whether her head was lying against a surface which would have created changes in pressure and force. So many questions. Henry Lee was brought in by the DA's office to look at the crime scene, and he was disgusted by how much it had been altered - he had questions about a pillow being removed, etc.

In college and for several years thereafter, I worked as a medical transcriptionist and general assistant in the laboratory and radiology departments of two local hospitals. This was back in the day when training was on-the-job, and I learned what sorts of things the pathologist (who was also the medical examiner at that time) was looking for in autopsies and injury assessments. Of course, human anatomy has not changed in the intervening years, but analysis of findings has become more nuanced. Medicine is as much an art as a science when it comes to interpretation - even where autopsies are concerned, though one might imagine that those findings would be straightforward. For example, some doctors don't believe that there is such a thing as shaken-baby syndrome, and interpret certain patterns of brain injury in a completely different way.

I don't know much about that, but my point is that there are many, many factors that go into a final autopsy report, and the subjective viewpoints of medical examiners - while they are stated as facts on the printed page - are open to other interpretations, as well. So while JB's hemorrhaging pattern is clear, expert analysis of how it came about is not.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I don’t like to be one who always asks for someone to provide a link for something that is said, but this is not what Kolar writes. I don’t think it would be the first thing he’s gotten wrong (if it is), but I’d really like to know if Burke was sent to his room before the BPD arrived, and he simply sat in his room playing with his new Nintendo. It just doesn't seem believable to me that either John or Burke would make that bed, so it comes down to whether or not FW went with John to Burke's room and he (FW) did it.

Foreign Faction; p. 84-85.


I guess I’m late to the ballgame on this because it has apparently been discussed before. If so, what was decided? Do we know, or is it just one more thing that’s left up to the individual to interpret the little bit of evidence we have?
As I recall, no one went to check on Burke and see if he was truly sleeping. They simply took John’s word for it when he told police he was sleeping.
.

I'm like you, otg...late on the ballgame or simply confused and forgot which book tells us which story...here is from ST book, page 21.

At the house, another peculiar scene unfolded that left police bewildered. Burke Ramsey was awakened by his father and Fleet White, dressed, and was being taken from the house.

By the way, sorry for changing the subject, by re-reading ST, I found another 'peculiar' detail which make me stop and think of something...(I know the danger of thinking too much...ST book, page 28. Wondering if you or anyone else discuss this as well before?

Arndt ordered Ramsey to put the body down on the floor near the front door and told Fleet White to quard the basement door. Instead, White run back down to the little cellar room, picked up the black tape, and stared at it. By doing so, White unknowingly mishandled a critical piece of evidence.

FW was 'run back' to look at tape. Why tape? What was so special for FW to 'stare at it' again? Did he recognize something?...And I was remember that somewhere I was reading about an accident happens at FW house day before, during FW Christmas party. Remember, when someone asked Burke if anything important happens that evening and he responded that nothing special, just he had been a little 'electrecuted' by some deer decoration outside of the WF house? Am I remember this correctly?...just wondering, if FW has some problem with outside decoration wires - did he used any tapes for insulation to correct an electrical problem?...If yes, does he recognized this tape or shape of it?...

I don't know, it's probably me...Lately, I'm questioning every detail in disbelieve...Sorry, for going out of the topic...

 

[UKGuy]

I'm like you, otg...late on the ballgame or simply confused and forgot which book tells us which story...here is from ST book, page 21.



By the way, sorry for changing the subject, by re-reading ST, I found another 'peculiar' detail which make me stop and think of something...(I know the danger of thinking too much...ST book, page 28. Wondering if you or anyone else discuss this as well before?



FW was 'run back' to look at tape. Why tape? What was so special for FW to 'stare at it' again? Did he recognize something?...And I was remember that somewhere I was reading about an accident happens at FW house day before, during FW Christmas party. Remember, when someone asked Burke if anything important happens that evening and he responded that nothing special, just he had been a little 'electrecuted' by some deer decoration outside of the WF house? Am I remember this correctly?...just wondering, if FW has some problem with outside decoration wires - did he used any tapes for insulation to correct an electrical problem?...If yes, does he recognized this tape or shape of it?...

I don't know, it's probably me...Lately, I'm questioning every detail in disbelieve...Sorry, for going out of the topic...

OpenMind4U,
FW is the missing witness. What he saw, what he thought, and why he returned to the basement, despite being told not to, is largely unknown.

It is very likely he realized the wine-cellar was a fake crime-scene. It had gone from a kidnapping to a homicide within seconds, and FW knew something was wrong. So, I guess, he wanted to take a second look?


He will have seen the barbie doll, the barbie nightgown, the partially opened gifts, along with the duct-tape. The latter he likely recognized as already used?


.

 

[midwest mama]

OpenMind4U,
FW is the missing witness. What he saw, what he thought, and why he returned to the basement, despite being told not to, is largely unknown.

It is very likely he realized the wine-cellar was a fake crime-scene. It had gone from a kidnapping to a homicide within seconds, and FW knew something was wrong. So, I guess, he wanted to take a second look?


He will have seen the barbie doll, the barbie nightgown, the partially opened gifts, along with the duct-tape. The latter he likely recognized as already used?


.

Fleet White must be full of pertinent information. If only..................

As of Dec 2008, an article reported he still lives in Boulder.

Here's an address to an interesting article about him:
http://someoneisgettingawaywithmurder.blogspot.com/2011/12/fleet-white-one-time-suspect.html

 

[DeeDee249]

Look at the second floor layout:
http://crimeshots.com/RamseyFloor.html
What is wrong in this picture is JARS room; which is labeled Melinda's. Patsy used this room when recovering from chemo. Has acandyrose been wrong all along?



I always understood that BR had 2 beds and not just one. Seems impossible to source that now. Post #97 by Koldkase is interesting here:
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7606&page=9
From what I have read Koldkase knows his/her stuff!

No, ACR hasn't been wrong. The room adjoining JB's room was originally Melinda's. After she left the area (and became engaged) the room was given to JAR to use when he came home on weekends.(which he did frequently, we hear). His campus was only a few minutes away, but he came home often on weekends.
Interesting that many of JB's visits to the school nurse were on a Monday.

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

I'm like you, otg...late on the ballgame or simply confused and forgot which book tells us which story...here is from ST book, page 21.



By the way, sorry for changing the subject, by re-reading ST, I found another 'peculiar' detail which make me stop and think of something...(I know the danger of thinking too much...ST book, page 28. Wondering if you or anyone else discuss this as well before?



FW was 'run back' to look at tape. Why tape? What was so special for FW to 'stare at it' again? Did he recognize something?...And I was remember that somewhere I was reading about an accident happens at FW house day before, during FW Christmas party. Remember, when someone asked Burke if anything important happens that evening and he responded that nothing special, just he had been a little 'electrecuted' by some deer decoration outside of the WF house? Am I remember this correctly?...just wondering, if FW has some problem with outside decoration wires - did he used any tapes for insulation to correct an electrical problem?...If yes, does he recognized this tape or shape of it?...

I don't know, it's probably me...Lately, I'm questioning every detail in disbelieve...Sorry, for going out of the topic...

I don't remember reading it as deer decoration but as a deer fence and assumed it was some sort of electric fence - i don't know how rural this area or house is - maybe it was indeed a christmas decoration - and yes I did also read that Burke was electrocuted.... i wonder if Brke himself used the words "electric fence" though....

seems fleet white entered the crime scene a fair few times both before the discovery of Jonbenet and afterwards.. interesting about the black tape because later there was no police (or autopsy??) record of it as John had said her legs were bound with it - but the police apparently said to him: What black tape?

??

Because the police were involved I can understand why Fleet wanted JB shut up, but then had to ensure to shut up Burke....

 

[OpenMind4U]

I don't remember reading it as deer decoration but as a deer fence and assumed it was some sort of electric fence - i don't know how rural this area or house is - maybe it was indeed a christmas decoration - and yes I did also read that Burke was electrocuted.... i wonder if Brke himself used the words "electric fence" though....

seems fleet white entered the crime scene a fair few times both before the discovery of Jonbenet and afterwards.. interesting about the black tape because later there was no police (or autopsy??) record of it as John had said her legs were bound with it - but the police apparently said to him: What black tape?

??

Because the police were involved I can understand why Fleet wanted JB shut up, but then had to ensure to shut up Burke....

Sorry, don't understand your last sentense...please explain.

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

Sorry, don't understand your last sentense...please explain.

The understanding was - according to the ransom note - that the police would not be called - or so those involved thought - but because the Ramsey's called the police - they feared facts would be learned from Jonbenet - and so they strangled her (I say "they" but there is only evidence I know of Fleet going to the basement).. if Fleet knew that the police would talk to Burke then he quickly "kindly" offered to get him out of the way - and to give him warnings about keeping his gob shut.

I believe someone on this site has said that Burke said something along the lines of: first they snuck her out then they snuck her back in and into the basement.. not a direct quote: this indicates to me that Burke knew more than has ever been fully established - Fleet may have even threatened to lay blame at Burke's door because this is what they do to the children - they told my daughter she had killed the dolphins at the sea world and indeed if you check the west australian news for around 1999 you will see that the dolphins did mysteriously die - they are very manipulative - especially to a child.

If the police had not been called it may not have been the intention to kill Jonbenet if the ransom was paid, but she may well have died from the skull injury - the extent of which nobody may have been aware - and hence the garroting.

 

[dodie20]

The understanding was - according to the ransom note - that the police would not be called - or so those involved thought - but because the Ramsey's called the police - they feared facts would be learned from Jonbenet - and so they strangled her (I say "they" but there is only evidence I know of Fleet going to the basement).. if Fleet knew that the police would talk to Burke then he quickly "kindly" offered to get him out of the way - and to give him warnings about keeping his gob shut.

I believe someone on this site has said that Burke said something along the lines of: first they snuck her out then they snuck her back in and into the basement.. not a direct quote: this indicates to me that Burke knew more than has ever been fully established - Fleet may have even threatened to lay blame at Burke's door because this is what they do to the children - they told my daughter she had killed the dolphins at the sea world and indeed if you check the west australian news for around 1999 you will see that the dolphins did mysteriously die - they are very manipulative - especially to a child.

If the police had not been called it may not have been the intention to kill Jonbenet if the ransom was paid, but she may well have died from the skull injury - the extent of which nobody may have been aware - and hence the garroting.

I don't think FW had the power to overide the Rs, in BR's eyes, no matter what he threatened him with. If FW was as diabolical as you think, he would have found a way to kill BR too. Why leave a witness alive, if he killed JBR, simply because the cops had been called. I've never seen 1 shred of evidence that points to FW as a molestor or murderer, just JR vaguely and passive aggressively getting his digs in. (paraphrased), 'No, I don't think FW was involved, but he sure acted strange'. Not the words of a parent who truly suspects someone of murdering his daughter. moo.

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

I don't think FW had the power to overide the Rs, in BR's eyes, no matter what he threatened him with. If FW was as diabolical as you think, he would have found a way to kill BR too. Why leave a witness alive, if he killed JBR, simply because the cops had been called. I've never seen 1 shred of evidence that points to FW as a molestor or murderer, just JR vaguely and passive aggressively getting his digs in. (paraphrased), 'No, I don't think FW was involved, but he sure acted strange'. Not the words of a parent who truly suspects someone of murdering his daughter. moo.

I don't think FW was given the option to over-ride the Ramsey's decision to call the cops because they called them straight-away after pegging round the house looking for the ir child. FW in his secret deposition commented on how he didn't like JonBenet asking him to clean her or tend to her toileting needs - why? why distance himself on this point - I believe she asked him because it would not have been the first time he had tended to her "needs" in this manner - be it perceived as intimate or simply socially unacceptable.

I also believe a lady came forward implicating FW in ritualistic sex acts and was discredited - I don't know in what way, but I would know that I would be discredited in a similar case because the police had me put in a mental hospital - before i knew any details of what had gone on with my family and therefore could not have and did not say anything which could have been perceived as psychotic at that time.

He was close enough to know family details - he had a spare key - he checked the basement and said she wasn't there but the autopsy says the body was not moved after a period of up to about 20 minutes after death - people say John was the sole male person present in JB's life despite the fact she was regularly at the White's home and he obviously was at theirs - tot he point he took Burke away and made his bed for chrisakes.

FW strikes me as someone with a veneer of respectability which is manufactured - why the secret deposition? Why?

The ransom letter speaks of control and knowledge - like he would have by being so close - like the control he exerts it seems at all times - he is dismissive of women like when he tells his wife to tell Patsy what he does not approve of instead of just saying so himself - and I believe that ransom note was written by a male - it is a cold-hearted business contract speaking solely to the male of the home completely dismissing Patsy - because the mother is irrelevant - this is an exertion of control by a man saying so what about your business and your money and your life - the true person in control is me... but he did not believe they would call the police - if i got that letter I would not call the police - at least I don't think i would - i would just fork out all the dough - and no doubt if my best mate were there offering support he would come along for the ride and would indeed know if i was organising a set-up - not that this is the only option - FW is the connection to other suspects - and not the Ramseys - for example chris wolf whose tennis sweatshirt said santa barbara - santa barbara tennis club - SBTC - a lot of it is circumstantial - because it seems he is the one who pulls the strings - why was Jonbenet's hairstyle changed - her clothes the same as the ones she wore the night before? Why was she garrotted? do you sincerely in your heart believe this mother who doted on this wee princess even if she had smacked her under stress could not only stage such an evil scene - but garrot her baby child like this - no way in hell - a dominant controlling male was responsible for that letter - not Patsy or John - someone who did not care even for the paltry 100K plus the 18K to "prove" he knew detail and was "watching" everything - there is no way under the amount of stress a guilty Patsy would have been under that she could have written that note or even perceived of it - she did not write it and is not guilty.

There are loads of witnesses alive to these abominations - it would be lovely if they all killed eachother so there would be none of them left (sorry - not the kids obviously - its a tough thing to be dealing with - this "families" connected and bound by indoctrination through crime - or if somehow the bonds could be broken and these people could speak without fear) - FW had to enter damage control with Burke and did so with JB cos the police were called - in a way - this protected Burke cos they were all over and everyone was being questioned and watched - most of FW's control was in his own mind and exerted over the children or the mindless.

I don't know why you can't even perceive the possibility simply by thinking inside a different box - he had opportunity - potentially he had motive - and he was there to clear up - at the scene - in the house - at the time.... something about him being told to shut the basement door once Jonbenet was removed by police but re-entering and picking up the black tape which John asked the police why it wasn't mentioned in the autopsy as having been around his daughter's legs - why draw attention to evidence if he was guilty?? No.

 

[DeeDee249]

The area was not rural at all. In fact, the houses are surprisingly close together. More like a little town than a rural country village.
FW was not involved in this crime. There are only three people who could have been involved- they all were in the house at the time of the crime. NO evidence points to anyone else.

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

The area was not rural at all. In fact, the houses are surprisingly close together. More like a little town than a rural country village.
FW was not involved in this crime. There are only three people who could have been involved- they all were in the house at the time of the crime. NO evidence points to anyone else.

caucasian male pubic hair found on the blanket JB was wrapped in for one...

 

[DeeDee249]

caucasian male pubic hair found on the blanket JB was wrapped in for one...

That is simply false. The hair on the blanket was PROVED to have been a forearm hair sourced to Patsy Ramsey.

 

[anne11]

Sorry to veer off-course, I was wondering about the hammer that was taken into evidence, it was not specified as to exactly what type of hammer it was but it could be another possible for the head-blow weapon.