Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #2 *ARREST*

[Dotta]

These are media interviews with the trainer. I don't hear anything about guns. He talks about "wrestling/struggling" with the robbers, and the robbers overpowering them. He doesn't say that guns were pointed at them, so they were forced to comply. Other translators might want to check to see if I missed hearing the word "guns" somewhere in these videos. Also if anybody saw "guns" mentioned in a media report regarding the trainer's robbery, please post it. I'm trying to understand if these are supposed to be the same robbers in both cases, then why are they deviating from their modus operandi? In other words, 1) why were they now using guns (against B&C), when they weren't using guns before (against the trainer and his wife)? and 2) and why immediately murder C, when the trainer's wife wasn't killed? MOO

The same or not the same (gang) - That is the question!

 

[MsBetsy]

If the alleged robbers had guns, then why not murder C with the gun? Too loud? Why not murder B with the gun too and remove any witnesses?

In the videos the trainer states that the leader is probably the same person in both cases, as he's talked to B about this. Which suggests that the leader is the same as the "short one" mentioned in the press, who allegedly murdered C.

So the leader has upped the level of his (criminal) game from a few years ago when he robbed the trainer, because he's now arming his gang, with guns. But he himself is not armed? He's the leader, but he lets the other two robbers have guns, but he doesn't have a gun. Why? Because he prefers to kill with his hands? Let's suppose they found 100,000 euros, how does the leader know that the other two robbers aren't going to turn a gun on him so they can split the score between the two of them 50/50 and leave him out of the loop?

Suffocation would take several minutes. I can't remember what LE/MSM reports were saying. Was it 1-2 minutes to lose consciousness, then 7-8 minutes to suffocate to death? That's seems like a very long time for a robber to spend killing someone. Seems very inefficient since the gang is now armed with guns.

If they didn't shoot the guns because they were worried about the noise, then how do you explain pointing a gun at B to intimidate him? I mean how would they know for sure that B wouldn't try to save C and risk getting shot to do so (with the gunshot, which could wake up the neighbors, bringing the police, etc.)?

JMO

You're probably right that they didn't use guns because it would make noise. Gunshots are very loud. They were likely used to threaten and subdue them. If someone pointed a gun to my child's head I would likely cooperate.

What's unusual is that they stayed so long. Didn't one article say that B said they were there for an hour? If it was a professional job, they would want to be in and out as quickly as possible.

LE did say they left fingerprints. Maybe they will find DNA on the body or clothing. In Greece, do they take samples from every person charged with a felony? LE said something about the possibility of the burglars having a record so if they have a profile maybe they will find a match.

Death can occur in about four minutes from strangulation. It's supposedly an agonizing way to die.

Imo

 

[Dotta]

If the alleged robbers had guns, then why not murder C with the gun? Too loud? Why not murder B with the gun too and remove any witnesses?

In the videos the trainer states that the leader is probably the same person in both cases, as he's talked to B about this. Which suggests that the leader is the same as the "short one" mentioned in the press, who allegedly murdered C.

So the leader has upped the level of his (criminal) game from a few years ago when he robbed the trainer, because he's now arming his gang, with guns. But he himself is not armed? He's the leader, but he lets the other two robbers have guns, but he doesn't have a gun. Why? Because he prefers to kill with his hands? Let's suppose they found 100,000 euros, how does the leader know that the other two robbers aren't going to turn a gun on him so they can split the score between the two of them 50/50 and leave him out of the loop?

Suffocation would take several minutes. I can't remember what LE/MSM reports were saying. Was it 1-2 minutes to lose consciousness, then 7-8 minutes to suffocate to death? That's seems like a very long time for a robber to spend killing someone. Seems very inefficient since the gang is now armed with guns.

If you'd say that they didn't shoot the guns because they were worried about the noise, then how do you explain pointing a gun at B to intimidate him? I mean how would they know for sure that B wouldn't try to save C and risk getting shot to do so (and with the sound of the gunshot, which could wake up the neighbors, bringing the police)?

JMO

Besides even me (absolutely law abiding person) know about "silencers" put on guns.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Death can occur in about four minutes from strangulation. It's supposedly an agonizing way to die.

(snipped by me for focus)

Just to clarify this point, because we went over this in the first thread, but English-language media reports of "strangulation" appear to be a mistranslation, as Greek media reports and statements from LE say the cause of death was "suffocation."

 

[Dotta]

Γλυκά Νερά: Σε αναζήτηση νέων δεδομένων - Οι ληστές δεν άφησαν κανένα στοιχείο

Orphan DNA belongs to a carpenter who worked at the house

 

[Patrick Jane]

Γλυκά Νερά: Σε αναζήτηση νέων δεδομένων - Οι ληστές δεν άφησαν κανένα στοιχείο

Orphan DNA belongs to a carpenter who worked at the house

So, as far as I know, it's a month later, and yet LE still hasn't found any evidence of the existence of the alleged robbers. No DNA, no fingerprints, no CCTV footage. Nothing.

JMO

 

[Dotta]

Χάθηκε το μεγάλο στοίχημα των Γλυκών Νερών…
Really good article - 15 year sentence is not of importance but what really matters is CATCHING the criminals. The INEVITABILITY of the punishment matters!

 

[DeLu]

So, as far as I know, it's a month later, and yet LE still hasn't found any evidence of the existence of the alleged robbers. No DNA, no fingerprints, no CCTV footage. Nothing.

JMO

Or at least that's what they say to the media

 

[catchingdelivery]

It seems Police are doing everything they can to find evidence proving what Caroline's husband says happened but it's just not there

It's been mentioned previously that there was some sort of clean up with bleach, and I wondered what if someone had been in a foul rage and taken it out on the dog, who then defecated all over the house in fear. Maybe someone else had started to clean it up? That could explain the bleach

I think a lot of what is being reported fits better with a different scenario than is being given at the moment but unless persons of interest are added/changed we can't discuss it

 

[Dotta]

Or at least that's what they say to the media

Yes, I believe that but Im an eternal optimist

 

[MsBetsy]

(snipped by me for focus)

Just to clarify this point, because we went over this in the first thread, but English-language media reports of "strangulation" appear to be a mistranslation, as Greek media reports and statements from LE say the cause of death was "suffocation."

Oh, well in that case I think it would take at least five minutes, but it depends on the situation. With someone putting up a struggle it would probably take longer. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Besides even me (absolutely law abiding person) know about "silencers" put on guns.

Even with a silencer it would still be loud enough to hear if they had close neighbors.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Oh, well in that case I think it would take at least five minutes, but it depends on the situation. With someone putting up a struggle it would probably take longer. Imo

What about, hypothetically, being pushed face down into pillow, when one was (initially) asleep?

This quote isn't from a scientific site (just an entertainment-type site), but I wonder if the points raised are accurate:

An ordinary pillow is quite porous and will allow some air to get through, so even if it were pressed as tightly against the victim's nose and mouth as possible (despite struggling and all), it will still kill much more slowly than other methods which entirely cut off the victim's air supply.

Vorpal Pillow - TV Tropes

I'm not an expert and MOO

 

[Dotta]

Even with a silencer it would still be loud enough to hear if they had close neighbors.

I see...

 

[MsBetsy]

It seems Police are doing everything they can to find evidence proving what Caroline's husband says happened but it's just not there

It's been mentioned previously that there was some sort of clean up with bleach, and I wondered what if someone had been in a foul rage and taken it out on the dog, who then defecated all over the house in fear. Maybe someone else had started to clean it up? That could explain the bleach

I think a lot of what is being reported fits better with a different scenario than is being given at the moment but unless persons of interest are added/changed we can't discuss it

Did LE say the crime scene had been cleaned with bleach? I thought they described it as clean, as in not much evidence was left behind and there were few signs of a struggle. If the burglars cleaned up they didn't do a very good job if they left fingerprints behind. I think the dog was killed because it was making noise.

One of the burglars apparently disabled a surveillance camera and LE knows which route they took when they left but that's not much help if they can't identify the vehicles.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Did LE say the crime scene had been cleaned with bleach? I thought they described it as clean, as in not much evidence was left behind and there were few signs of a struggle. If the burglars cleaned up they didn't do a very good job if they left fingerprints behind. I think the dog was killed because it was making noise.

One of the burglars apparently disabled a surveillance camera and LE knows which route they took when they left but that's not much help if they can't identify the vehicles.

There were reportedly 6-8 interior cameras (but no exterior cameras). There were no memory cards in the cameras, when LE came to the scene, according to LE.

 

[Winterbells]

Did LE say the crime scene had been cleaned with bleach? I thought they described it as clean, as in not much evidence was left behind and there were few signs of a struggle. If the burglars cleaned up they didn't do a very good job if they left fingerprints behind. I think the dog was killed because it was making noise.

One of the burglars apparently disabled a surveillance camera and LE knows which route they took when they left but that's not much help if they can't identify the vehicles.

I wasn't aware that they left fingerprints behind?
I also wasn't aware that LE knows anything about the route they took when they left, unless you're referring to the car and the motorbike caught on cctv driving along the road at around the time it's estimated that they left? I didn't think LE had conclusively linked those vehicles to the crime?

 

[catchingdelivery]

(SBM)
Did LE say the crime scene had been cleaned with bleach?

My apologies - it seems this is just a rumour at present as it hasn't been confirmed or denied by LE;

(SBM)
2:45 the newswoman asks LE if the rumors of bleach being used to clean the crime scene are true. LE neither confirms nor denies this, but talks in generalities about how LE is on top of the case.

How do I edit what I wrote previously?

 

[MsBetsy]

What about, hypothetically, being pushed face down into pillow, when one was (initially) asleep?

This quote isn't from a scientific site (just an entertainment-type site), but I wonder if the points raised are accurate:



Vorpal Pillow - TV Tropes

I'm not an expert and MOO

Yeah, I would think a pillow would take longer than something like a plastic bag. Was the autopsy report released or just the cause of death?

 

[Dotta]

Did LE say the crime scene had been cleaned with bleach? I thought they described it as clean, as in not much evidence was left behind and there were few signs of a struggle. If the burglars cleaned up they didn't do a very good job if they left fingerprints behind. I think the dog was killed because it was making noise.

One of the burglars apparently disabled a surveillance camera and LE knows which route they took when they left but that's not much help if they can't identify the vehicles.

What external surveillance camera are you talking about? I must have missed sth