Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #2 *ARREST*

[Dotta]

I don't know much about dogs, but puppies can sleep in a crate when quite young, also when training. I imagine with a young baby you wouldn't want the dog roaming around freely at night until it was fully trained.

Puppy you say - Ok robbers were threatend by a puppy but not by B. Can I change the film, please? Where is a remote???

 

[Linskid]

If, hypothetically, the husband committed the murder, what did he do with the camera memory cards and the jewelry between the murder and the time the police arrived? JMO

 

[Dotta]

If, hypothetically, the husband committed the murder, what did he do with the camera memory cards and the jewelry between the murder and the time the police arrived? JMO

Took care about it beforehand?

 

[catchingdelivery]

What if an insurance scam had been planned, if it had worked for a colleague previously, but as the date got closer the plan in one person's mind changed. As the phrase goes 'kill two birds with one stone'.

There's nothing to suggest this happened, I haven't read anything about insurance policies etc, and I'm not sure if I believe it either, but it's another potential avenue of investigation

 

[Winterbells]

The puppy was a Husky mix. They crated him at night, which is quite common among medium/large dog owners. Trained from a young puppy, they most often feel secure in their crate. My related experience: both my parents were animal trainers (dogs, horses, ...).

Are we absolutely sure that he dog was a puppy? and a Husky mix?
I don't know where from, but I got the impression it was an older, small terrier looking dog (possibly a rescue). Wasn't there something written somewhere that CC wanted to start up an animal rescue centre? (an isolated location would have been ideal for that, come to think of it).

 

[Dotta]

Are we absolutely sure that he dog was a puppy? and a Husky mix?
I don't know where from, but I got the impression it was an older, small terrier looking dog (possibly a rescue). Wasn't there something written somewhere that CC wanted to start up an animal rescue centre? (an isolated location would have been ideal for that, come to think of it).

The dog was from a shelter. I dont know what kind of dog it was. I saw on Facebook the "dog obituary" the rescue shelter put. The shelter workers were all devastated.

 

[MsBetsy]

I agree with you on everything except when the stress of the relationship started. Maybe it was when the 29 or 30 year old male started to aggressively pursue the 16 year old teenaged girl, to the point that he'd fly his helicopter to the island every weekend, or show up at her school events? We know that her bestie and the fake psychologist thought it was a fairytale romance, but what did Caroline herself feel about it? Did she ever have alone time with her bestie once things got serious with B? What were the dynamics like with C and her prince charming? Did her mother think it was great a rich guy flew to see her so often or did she find it strange that a grown adult was pursuing her 16 year old child? Yes, later, C went from normal teenage activities with friends to only her husband, new baby, and puppy for companionship. She didn't even have the acquaintance of other new mothers in her area. Why?

Unrelated question: Why did the fake psychologist say that C was excited about building the new house in the more isolated region when MSM reported that she didn't want to move there?

I can see why a sixteen year old would easily be swept off her feet by an older man, especially if he was charming and romantic. For all we know she loved the attention in the beginning. I can definitely see why her best friend would see it as a fairytale romance. Caroline may have thought being married to him would be an exciting life, only to be let down when reality sunk in. For now we can only speculate because we don't have all the facts. Her friend would not have known what was going on in their marriage if she hadn't seen them in awhile.

I don't put much importance in what the therapist said because she only had eight visits with them and I don't think that's enough time to gain enough insight into the relationship or to speak about Caroline's frame of mind. She could have said she was excited about the move because her husband was there.

What I find interesting is that the husband dismissed the therapist's statements as not having anything to do with the investigation. I don't think he liked the idea that their marriage was in any way relevant to the case, whereas the actions by LE tell me they do think it's relevant. The "therapist" put their relationship in the spotlight and he pointed in another direction.

The actions by the therapist might be what turns out to be an important lead in the investigation. I don't think she or Babis ever thought it would lead to so much negative attention. Hopefully LE will review the cellphone data of all their communication.

As to your last question, I still can't find out where the journalist got his information from about Caroline not wanting to move. I don't even see that he quoted a source "close to the investigation," or a friend or family member, or anybody at all. That's what I'm interested in. I read the post but maybe I missed it.

 

[tayaway]

Are we absolutely sure that he dog was a puppy? and a Husky mix?
I don't know where from, but I got the impression it was an older, small terrier looking dog (possibly a rescue). Wasn't there something written somewhere that CC wanted to start up an animal rescue centre? (an isolated location would have been ideal for that, come to think of it).

The dog was from a shelter. I don't know what kind of dog it was. I saw on Facebook the "dog obituary" the rescue shelter put. The shelter workers were all devastated.

Well, given all the MSM jumbled info, maybe he wasn't even a dog, maybe he was a she and parrot and she belonged to B, not C! In trying to find credible sources, I ran across articles that said Husky/mixed Husky and the dog was killed by an unmentioned method, hung, and even shot. Choose your own pet adventure?

 

[Dotta]

Well, given all the MSM jumbled info, maybe he wasn't even a dog, maybe he was a she and parrot and she belonged to B, not C! In trying to find credible sources, I ran across articles that said Husky/mixed Husky and the dog was killed by an unmentioned method, hung, and even shot. Choose your own pet adventure?

The dog was black and white and it wasn't definitely a huskie - there was a photo of it but Im not a dog expert

 

[Tortoise]

If, hypothetically, the husband committed the murder, what did he do with the camera memory cards and the jewelry between the murder and the time the police arrived? JMO

Rings and SD cards are very small items and would be very easy to conceal in a house. Inside a pipe, down a drain, in the pocket of clothing, shoes, in a pile of linen, luggage lining, behind electrical sockets, inside food packaging, under mats in the car, literally anywhere. I don't think police examining a crime scene turn over every single thing, they're looking for trace evidence and processing obvious places like doors, windows, floors and victims.

I think it would be useful to take a cadaver dog in to see where it alerts. Anyone handling Caroline's body after her death may have left cadaverine odour on other surfaces like tools, screwdrivers, etc.


In the Helen Bailey case (her body was hidden in a sewer beneath the garage but her husband reported her missing) it was upgraded to a murder investigation after specialised dogs searched the house:


"Jurors also heard from Steven Polley, a dog handler for Norfolk Fire and Rescue Service, who searched the author’s home with a police dog on April 22.

Mr Polley said the dog, trained to assist in the recovery of deceased victims, ‘indicated’ at a bucket of cleaning materials in the utility room, as well as a bench in the kitchen dining area and a pair of trousers in the main bedroom."
Fiancé of Royston author Helen Bailey paid for missing flyers and attended dog walk after her disappearance, jurors told

"One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation."

more to read at link

The CSI death dogs: Sniffing out the truth behind the crime-scene

 

[tayaway]

The dog was black and white and it wasn't definitely a huskie - there was a photo of it but Im not a dog expert

I've never seen a pic of the dog and all the articles I've come across have read either Husky or Husky mix. If you can find it, can you link? Don't fret over it, though, because it's like finding a needle in a haystack at this point.

 

[Tortoise]

Are we absolutely sure that he dog was a puppy? and a Husky mix?
I don't know where from, but I got the impression it was an older, small terrier looking dog (possibly a rescue). Wasn't there something written somewhere that CC wanted to start up an animal rescue centre? (an isolated location would have been ideal for that, come to think of it).

She wanted to open a cat sanctuary. Detectives probing if robbers who killed British mother in Greece believed €100,000 was in the home | Daily Mail Online

They had four cats. Greece burglary murder: Woman's daughter was 'trying to wake her up' as police arrived | Daily Mail Online

 

[Dotta]

Rings and SD cards are very small items and would be very easy to conceal in a house. Inside a pipe, down a drain, in the pocket of clothing, shoes, in a pile of linen, luggage lining, behind electrical sockets, inside food packaging, under mats in the car, literally anywhere. I don't think police examining a crime scene turn over every single thing, they're looking for trace evidence and processing obvious places like doors, windows, floors and victims.

I think it would be useful to take a cadaver dog in to see where it alerts. Anyone handling Caroline's body after her death may have left cadaverine odour on other surfaces like tools, screwdrivers, etc.


In the Helen Bailey case (her body was hidden in a sewer beneath the garage but her husband reported her missing) it was upgraded to a murder investigation after specialised dogs searched the house:


"Jurors also heard from Steven Polley, a dog handler for Norfolk Fire and Rescue Service, who searched the author’s home with a police dog on April 22.

Mr Polley said the dog, trained to assist in the recovery of deceased victims, ‘indicated’ at a bucket of cleaning materials in the utility room, as well as a bench in the kitchen dining area and a pair of trousers in the main bedroom."
Fiancé of Royston author Helen Bailey paid for missing flyers and attended dog walk after her disappearance, jurors told

"One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation."

more to read at link

The CSI death dogs: Sniffing out the truth behind the crime-scene

But if bleach was used can a dog still find the scent?

 

[Dotta]

I've never seen a pic of the dog and all the articles I've come across have read either Husky or Husky mix. If you can find it, can you link? Don't fret over it, though, because it's like finding a needle in a haystack at this point.

But it was Facebook! It is still there but I always surf the net like crazy and later dont remember exact links. The pic was framed with red exclamation marks. The dog looked like border collie (?????) with longish black and white hair. I have no knowledge of dog races but I recognize huskie when I see one. Oh and pitbull haha

 

[Tortoise]

But if bleach was used can a dog still find the scent?

In the example I gave the husband had cleaned up and the dog alerted at the bucket of cleaning materials. I don't know if he used bleach. In that case his wife was killed by smothering and there was no blood to clean up. We also don't know if the perpetrator of Caroline's murder used bleach, that would have been a powerful smell detectives might have noticed, and even if that were so, I don't think every item in the house would be bleached.

 

[Lola68]

The security cameras inside the house are troubling me, for more than one reason.

Do we definitely know (i.e. accurate translation) that these were home security cameras and not baby/pet monitors?

Does anyone know the function of the memory card in these types of camera (security or monitor)? I read somewhere that memory cards are useful in isolated areas with poor wifi, but regardless of whether they were intended for security or safety (or something else), I would assume the main purpose would be for the residents to monitor activity in the house remotely/from a different room live. And that the memory cards would store the recording (assuming not backed up to the cloud).

My point being that unless the cameras were not recently used/cards removed some time ago (e.g. by previous owners), then I would think LE would be able to find out when the live recording was last accessed (and by whom). Which could shed more light on the timeframe during which the cards were removed JIMO

 

[Patrick Jane]

As to your last question, I still can't find out where the journalist got his information from about Caroline not wanting to move. I don't even see that he quoted a source "close to the investigation," or a friend or family member, or anybody at all. That's what I'm interested in. I read the post but maybe I missed it.

(SBM for focus)

It was mentioned in response to the same questions you're asking

At the start of the interview the journalist says he was "speaking to people who know B very well."

 

[Patrick Jane]

The security cameras inside the house are troubling me, for more than one reason.

Do we definitely know (i.e. accurate translation) that these were home security cameras and not baby/pet monitors?

Does anyone know the function of the memory card in these types of camera (security or monitor)? I read somewhere that memory cards are useful in isolated areas with poor wifi, but regardless of whether they were intended for security or safety (or something else), I would assume the main purpose would be for the residents to monitor activity in the house remotely/from a different room live. And that the memory cards would store the recording (assuming not backed up to the cloud).

My point being that unless the cameras were not recently used/cards removed some time ago (e.g. by previous owners), then I would think LE would be able to find out when the live recording was last accessed (and by whom). Which could shed more light on the timeframe during which the cards were removed JIMO

Do most baby/pet monitors record? Don't they just give a live feed?

The MSM report said there were 6-8 interior cameras. These cameras recorded because they used memory cards.

But I'm also wondering about the cloud. Because coming home for work and checking memory cards sounds like a lot of work. Maybe they had the personality type for that, but I'd think it would be more common to monitor live from the cloud as you suggest, and also to check recordings from the cloud. That would be the modern way of doing things. If someone was coming back from work after many days away (given how their job operated) and then methodically checking what was recorded on the memory cards, I'd say that's a very antiquated way of doing video monitoring.

 

[Lola68]

But if bleach was used can a dog still find the scent?

What about all the other jewellery the perps took? Not so easy to hide. Presumably insured though.

 

[Lola68]

Do most baby/pet monitors record? Don't they just give a live feed?

I have a pet monitor that does both that I can access from an app on my phone (no memory card though)