Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #2 *ARREST*

[Dotta]

I haven't seen that, Dotta, but if you send me the link where you read that, then I'll translate that excerpt, and let you know what it says precisely.

Twitter Glyka Nera

 

[Patrick Jane]

Twitter Glyka Nera

Under the rules here, it has to be from the MSM to be posted here.

 

[Dotta]

Under the rules here, it has to be from the MSM to be posted here.

Yes, but I even saw memes about this "bleach" and I understood it was said during police update. I thought you heard that. Sorry!

 

[Patrick Jane]

Yes, but I even saw memes about this "bleach" and I understood it was said during police update. I thought you heard that. Sorry!

I haven't seen the latest police updates, so I don't know.

 

[Kemug]

The "psychologist" seems to me to have lemming-like qualities.

 

[dotr]

The "psychologist" seems to me to have lemming-like qualities.

Had to check!
LIKE LEMMINGS (phrase) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary
''if a group of people do something like lemmings, they all do the same thing as someone else even though it may be stupid, harmful, or dangerous''

 

[Kemug]

Had to check!
LIKE LEMMINGS (phrase) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary
''if a group of people do something like lemmings, they all do the same thing as someone else even though it may be stupid, harmful, or dangerous''

I really meant a propensity to run off cliffs! (but yes, they do it in groups)
ETA: Oops, I see that belief has been pretty much debunked!

 

[Dotta]

‘Woman-hating Albanian’ monster hunted over burglary murder of Brit, cops say

Re "bleach" - Found it - a figure of speech used by police
By the way, it is so nice to read about newest updates in English! British press certainly is breathing down the Greek police's neck and doesn't lose interest in the case. Good!

 

[Angleterre]

Not only that but you can also get quite good fingerprints off tape.

Yes you can
I’m aware of that from my work
With both fingerprints and DNA , the sticky side of the tape is able to pick up your fingerprint pattern, the loops and the whorls which is what our prints are made up of and give us our own individual identifying fingerprint pattern and it also picks up DNA through our residue of skin oils and such like plus any skin particles that are bonded to the sticky part of the tape by merely coming into contact with it. Then on the smooth flat side of the tape, you can also recover a treasure trove of forensic evidence, again by virtue of fingerprint and DNA evidence which is easily lifted from the smooth side of the tape. It’s excellent for forensic evidence retrieval all around!

 

[Angleterre]

Anyone else hoping that all evidence was gathered correctly from Caroline? Her funeral was very soon after her murder and with how the direction of the police investigation is changing I only hope that no evidence was initially missed or overlooked.

That is why there should have been a second independent post mortem completed other than the one already completed on behalf of the prosecution. In the UK , in a Murder Investigation, there would be an initial post mortem carried out by a Home Office Forensic Pathologist, a Doctor of Pathology. This is where the Senior Investigative Officer of the rank of Detective Chief Inspector ( ME ) or above, in charge of the overall investigation, would brief the Home Office Pathologist with all the evidence found to date to enable the Pathologist to make an objective report regarding the time of death and causation unless of course causation is not immediately apparent and toxicology is then relied upon. However, In the event that a suspect is not immediately apparent and so as not to keep hold of the body of the victim until a suspect is identified ( which in some cases in the not too distant past, has been months into years), a decision was taken by the powers that be to allow the victims body to be released as soon as is reasonably possible, to their loved ones to enable burial to take place, especially having regards to differing cultures and faiths for example the Muslim faith where burial is to take place within 24 hours of time of reported death. This provides an element of comfort to loved ones and is a piece of much applauded and appreciated legislation. The down side to this taking place is the inability of any future suspect to have their own defence post mortem of the victim take place to ensure that they agree with the findings of the prosecution. So it was instructed that an independent post mortem would be conducted by a different pathologist than that of the original post mortem so that whence a suspect is identified, they can use the findings of the independent pathologist as their own defence findings.
Do any of our Greek contributors know if this is a process that is incumbent within a Greek Murder investigation? Or indeed if a second independent post mortem was conducted?

 

[Angleterre]

Continued..

The "carbon" robbery
The profile of the half-hearted perpetrator fits perfectly with what the trainer of the 32-year-old pilot testified, who fell victim to an identical robbery at his home in Alepochori three years ago.

"They are intimidated, they came to me at the fourteenth, summer, of July. They do not calculate anything. They are brutal and use their hands against women, who consider them weaker. They are brutal and half-hearted. I hope the Police find an end to this story and if there is anything in common with the case of the unfortunate Caroline, I will help too ".

"The leader looks awful in both cases and because he was not recognized by either me or Babi by the photos in the databases," said the pilot instructor, from whom the unfortunate Caroline's husband received his pilot's license.

He added: "Babis knew about the incident, when he heard his own characteristics, we talked to Babis again, we saw that the leader was suitable and I also talked to the Security. Unfortunately, his photo did not exist, otherwise we would have recognized him. Obviously not marked yet. They showed us 250 photos. "


I'm surprised B's pilot trainer has been allowed to disclose information that neither he or B could identify the alleged suspect from 250 photos. It just feels like Police would want to keep information like that to themselves. 250 photos also seems like a lot.
Maybe it's a tactic by Police to allow the media and public to form their own opinion and let the pressure mount? My thoughts only
(Edited to make myself clearer)

I apologise for constantly referring to the U.K. Procedures from the Home Office Murder Investigation Manual but it is the only country that I am familiar with the process and procedure. However, in the U.K. the process of viewing photographs to identify suspected offenders is very tightly controlled and regulated and the whole process is individually recorded as it takes place to ensure the integrity of not just the process but of any identification made . But I will say this - there are no more than 12 photos shown which may or may not contain a person suspected of the offence for each set of 12 shown of which there can be one set of 12 for each suspect if done on different occasions or 16 photos for 2 suspects if viewed on the same occasion. 250 is excessive and that number Cannot be controlled for the purposes of the investigation and once it enters the public domain and identification versus Recognition as per R V TURNBULL identification rules

 

[Dotta]

Γλυκά Νερά / Νέα στοιχεία για την ταυτότητα των δραστών δίνει ο 32χρονος πιλότος

Here it is written that the money was in the living room.

 

[Angleterre]

Δεν υπολογίζουν* τίποτα.
They don't have respect* for anything.

(my translation)

*this word literally refers to calculating or estimating or taking account of, but in the context here he's saying that normally you'd expect robbers to have some kind of moral code (despite them being robbers), somewhere where they'd draw the line, such as not laying hands on women and physically abusing them. However, he's saying that these perpetrators are rough, physically violent misogynists, and they don't take account of this moral code that says not to physically harm women, and in fact, he's saying, they don't take account of ANY moral code. "They don't have respect for anything" or "They don't take account of any (moral code)."

This is important to address because for those of you who don’t have reason to work with and talk to the criminal fraternity, I suspect that this is something that you have possibly not previously considered BUT believe it or not, there is in fact a moral code even with criminals who some consider to have no morals whatsoever. But they do have some morals albeit not the kind that the majority of the law abiding citizens have on a daily basis. Depending upon which group of criminals of the criminal fraternity that you speak with, they will tell you what these unspoken rules are and generally ( although it is a generalisation) other than Domestic Violence which is deemed to be a personal matter, the code is such that women and children are out of bounds and infact when in a prison setting and you are found to have committed offences against firstly children and latterly women, in that order, then there is a prison form of retribution doled out according to their crime committed against the code . It’s an interesting discussion to have amongst the criminals and it humanises their caring and nurturing side of their individual personalities to a degree although it can also be quite hypocritical too. But there are what I and others refer to within LE as ‘alright scallies ‘ - (see attachment for meaning)
These are people involved in minor criminality but with boundaries and some morals and are in their own viewpoint, just making a living by playing a game of Cops and Robbers with the downside being that they run the risk of being caught ! It’s also interesting as to how they choose which home to burglarise !

 

[catchingdelivery]

I apologise for constantly referring to the U.K. Procedures from the Home Office Murder Investigation Manual but it is the only country that I am familiar with the process and procedure. However, in the U.K. the process of viewing photographs to identify suspected offenders is very tightly controlled and regulated and the whole process is individually recorded as it takes place to ensure the integrity of not just the process but of any identification made . But I will say this - there are no more than 12 photos shown which may or may not contain a person suspected of the offence for each set of 12 shown of which there can be one set of 12 for each suspect if done on different occasions or 16 photos for 2 suspects if viewed on the same occasion. 250 is excessive and that number Cannot be controlled for the purposes of the investigation and once it enters the public domain and identification versus Recognition as per R V TURNBULL identification rules

I did think 250 was a ridiculous amount. Imagine how confused and exhausted you'd be.
I suppose allowing for lack of clarity or misunderstanding with the translation, he could possibly have meant 250 different types of eyes, nose, mouths etc if trying to piece together an e-fit. I suppose it doesn't really matter though

 

[Patrick Jane]

Γλυκά Νερά / Νέα στοιχεία για την ταυτότητα των δραστών δίνει ο 32χρονος πιλότος

Here it is written that the money was in the living room.

Ο κοντός πήγε πάνω στη γυναίκα μου, τη γύρισε μπρούμυτα με μια απότομη λαβή και της γύρισε το κεφάλι προς το στρώμα ή το μαξιλάρι.
The short one got on top of my wife, turned her on to her stomach with an abrupt/sudden hold/lock* and turned her head (face down) to the sheet or pillow.

*hold/lock: an athletic type of grip, like used in wrestling, martial arts, etc.

(my translation) /end of translation

This article quotes leaks of what B supposedly stated to police. I'm not saying this report is accurate, but noting here that this suggests that CC was murdered while face down (and possibly into a pillow).

Earlier in the (first) thread I speculated that, if one were considering the hypothetical scenario where there was no struggle (to account for no DNA on her nails), then it was possible that CC was attacked while asleep, and suggested that she might have been suffocated face down into a pillow. JMO

 

[tayaway]

News Beast: According to the Greek Freemasons, the org canceled Eleni Mylonopoulou's (Caroline's 'psychologist') membership in 2018 after they discovered she lied about being a doctor.

(edited for clarity)

 

[Tortoise]

Ο κοντός πήγε πάνω στη γυναίκα μου, τη γύρισε μπρούμυτα με μια απότομη λαβή και της γύρισε το κεφάλι προς το στρώμα ή το μαξιλάρι.
The short one got on top of my wife, turned her on to her stomach with an abrupt/sudden hold/lock* and turned her head (face down) to the sheet or pillow.

*hold/lock: an athletic type of grip, like used in wrestling, martial arts, etc.

(my translation) /end of translation

This article quotes leaks of what B supposedly stated to police. I'm not saying this report is accurate, but noting here that this suggests that CC was murdered while face down (and possibly into a pillow).

Earlier in the (first) thread I speculated that, if one were considering the hypothetical scenario where there was no struggle (to account for no DNA on her nails), then it was possible that CC was attacked while asleep, and suggested that she might have been suffocated face down into a pillow. JMO

So there should have been dirty boot marks on the sheets from the short one, sitting on top of her on the bed.

 

[Dotta]

So there should have been dirty boot marks on the sheets from the short one, sitting on top of her on the bed.

If C was on the edge of he bed the robber might have just used 1 knee on her back to pin her down. But sure - then should be a bruise, right? And marks from his boot at the edge of the bed. MOO

 

[Patrick Jane]

Γλυκά Νερά / Νέα στοιχεία για την ταυτότητα των δραστών δίνει ο 32χρονος πιλότος

Here it is written that the money was in the living room.

There's a video with K (LE) embedded in that article. At the end of the video the newsman brings up he had just done an interview with someone, who I think the newsman is referring to B's trainer, who was a robbery victim. The newsman referred to him by the region he lives in, rather than as "trainer" so I'd have to know where the trainer lived to confirm this. But K throws out at the end of the interview this interesting line, "This person said the same thing as in this case. (he said) that no genetic material was found. But the issue is do we know for sure that the FSD* went there (to do a forensic analysis of the crime scene) and look for DNA? Because they don't always go . . . (in order for them to go) there must be"/interview ends, newsman cuts off interview.

*FSD: Forensics Science Division (Greek: Δ.Ε.Ε. - Διεύθυνση Εγκληματολογικών Ερευνών) Hellenic Police - Wikipedia

It's always interesting to watch K. It's this interesting dynamic between "I know nothing" and "I know everything" that I can only compare to watching an episode of Columbo.

 

[Dotta]

There's a video with K (LE) embedded in that article. At the end of the video the newsman brings up he had just done an interview with someone, who I think the newsman is referring to B's trainer, who was a robbery victim. The newsman referred to him by the region he lives in, rather than as "trainer" so I'd have to know where the trainer lived to confirm this. But K throws out at the end of the interview this interesting line, "This person said the same thing as in this case. (he said) that no genetic material was found. But the issue is do we know for sure that the FSD* went there (to do a forensic analysis of the crime scene) and look for DNA? Because they don't always go . . . (in order for them to go) there must be"/interview ends, newsman cuts off interview.

*FSD: Forensics Science Division (Greek: Δ.Ε.Ε. - Διεύθυνση Εγκληματολογικών Ερευνών) Hellenic Police - Wikipedia

It's always interesting to watch K. It's this interesting dynamic between "I know nothing" and "I know everything" that I can only compare to watching an episode of Columbo.

So... Without forensic evidence, catching whoever committed this crime is like "searching for the wind in open fields". But surely, in case of a murder, forensics was done although nothing was found.