Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #2 *ARREST*

[MsBetsy]

I still remember the report - a gag and the perp put a hand on her mouth and nose (because she was supposedly screaming)

But how would LE know that, especially if they weren't able to find any DNA from the perpetrator? Or was this what the ME said? Which page is the report on?

 

[Dotta]

Γλυκά Νερά: Νέα στοιχεία-σοκ για το άγριο έγκλημα - Η κατάθεση του συζύγου | Ειδήσεις - νέα - Το Βήμα Online

Yes, exactly! Thanks for finding it

 

[Patrick Jane]

Γλυκά Νερά: Νέα στοιχεία-σοκ για το άγριο έγκλημα - Η κατάθεση του συζύγου | Ειδήσεις - νέα - Το Βήμα Online

Ο δολοφόνος φέρεται να έκλεισε το στόμα της κοπέλας, με κομμάτια από ύφασμα, πιέζοντας τα αφόρητα και σφίγγοντάς τα προς τα μέσα με την παλάμη των χεριών του. Μάλιστα ο στυγερός εγκληματίας φέρεται να έφραξε και την μύτη της.
The murderer is reported/alleged (to have) closed the girl's mouth, with pieces of cloth, pressing them unbearably/intolerably and squeezing them inwards with the palm of his hands. The hardened criminal even reportedly/allegedly blocked/covered her nose.

(my translation) /end of translation

The paragraph right before this talks about the medical examiner's findings of suffocation. However, this excerpt qualifies its reporting twice. One in each sentence, which says "reported/alleged." Reported/alleged by whom? The medical examiner? Or is this a mash-up of media reports of what B or LE supposedly said?

And even if this report is accurate it's still consistent IMO with being suffocated while face down (e.g. suppose the murderer had one hand on the back of C's head pressing her into the pillow, and the other hand on the other side of the pillow pressing upwards).

So I'm still going with my face down theory, and the possibility that a pillow or something similar was used for two reasons:
1) LE's repeated statements that no DNA was found on her nails, and 2) B's recent statement, as reported in the media, that C was turned around and face down towards the pillow or sheet (I posted the translation of this a few days ago)

JMO

 

[Patrick Jane]

There are various types of internal cameras. Some must be unscrewed to take the memory card out (did they use a screwdriver?), some dont need this, but just pushing an element of the camera to remove the card.

Speaking of screwdrivers, I'm trying to understand the media report that the window had been unscrewed, with screws scattered around, and the glass was in the middle of the basement room. I mean if B is saying he left the window in tilt-open mode, couldn't the alleged robbers have just reached in and turned the handle to open it? And wouldn't there have been fingerprints on the handle? Or fibers from gloves or something?

 

[Dotta]

Speaking of screwdrivers, I'm trying to understand the media report that the window had been unscrewed, with screws scattered around, and the glass was in the middle of the basement room. I mean if B is saying he left the window in tilt-open mode, couldn't the alleged robbers have just reached in and turned the handle to open it? And wouldn't there have been fingerprints on the handle? Or fibers from gloves or something?

Doctor type gloves dont leave fibres I guess. The window might be tilted minimally with not enough space to put your hand inside. MOO

 

[Patrick Jane]

Doctor type gloves dont leave fibres I guess. The window might be tilted minimally with not enough space to put your hand inside. MOO

but look at the first picture, this is how it is in the "tilt-open mode." shouldn't there be enough room for a hand to squeeze through?

(snipped by me for focus)

Egress Windows - European Tilt & Turn Window

ETA: I think to open this window fully, after being locked in tilt-open mode you'd need to close it, then turn the handle. If this is the case it would have me wondering why wasn't this window forced and broken open from tilt-open mode. That would have been the easiest, most logical thing to do. If this had happened there would have been evidence of forced entry. But, according to the reporting, there was no evidence of forced entry.

 

[Patrick Jane]

No firing guns were mentioned on this robbery. Only globs. The dog was also not killed rather sedated. And the wife was heavily beaten but not killed. Additionally, these husband and wife tried to confront them, while B was cooperative with them.

That's a good point in comparing how the dog was treated in that case versus in this case.

Hanging the dog seems like overkill to me. Seems like there was so much rage in this crime scene: suffocation which would probably take 5-8 minutes, a dog hanged in the stairway. Why so much rage? I mean they got 10,000 euros plus jewelry. In the robbery of the trainer they only got, what, around 1000 euros, but they didn't kill anybody. Why so much rage here?

MOO

 

[Dotta]

but look at the first picture, this is how it is in the "tilt-open mode." shouldn't there be enough room for a hand to squeeze through?

(snipped by me for focus)

Well, in this this kind of window it should be easy to reach the handle! Now I read that a Greek programme Fosstotounel showed a sketch by B. If this programme is on youtube I will try to find a link.

 

[Lindsay Lou Who]

So, as far as I know, it's a month later, and yet LE still hasn't found any evidence of the existence of the alleged robbers. No DNA, no fingerprints, no CCTV footage. Nothing.

JMO

I keep coming back to the amount of cameras inside this house. I can't get my head around why the perps would take the time to locate every single camera and remove every single memory card! Have the memory cards been located? Or alternatively why would you have so many cameras inside and not have memory cards in them?

Also strange to have so many internal cameras but none externally. I'm trying to figure out the thought process behind that.

 

[catchingdelivery]

I think to open this window fully, after being locked in tilt-open mode you'd need to close it, then turn the handle

That's correct

 

[Dotta]

That's a good point in comparing how the dog was treated in that case versus in this case.

Hanging the dog seems like overkill to me. Seems like there was so much rage in this crime scene: suffocation which would probably take 5-8 minutes, a dog hanged in the stairway. Why so much rage? I mean they got 10,000 euros plus jewelry. In the robbery of the trainer they only got, what, around 1000 euros, but they didn't kill anybody. Why so much rage here?

MOO

And did B ever mention the dog and its cruel death? I mean it was a pet! Also I read that B still uses present tense while talking about C in press articles. Is it true? We cant tell reading google translations

 

[MsBetsy]

Γλυκά Νερά: Νέα στοιχεία-σοκ για το άγριο έγκλημα - Η κατάθεση του συζύγου | Ειδήσεις - νέα - Το Βήμα Online

It begins with "her husband was handcuffed, tortured, and killed inside her house," which obviously is not accurate.

As far as the COD, it looks like they quoted the ME's findings as "Airway obstruction as a result of suffocation," and the rest is speculation. I doubt the ME said "the killer allegedly closed the girl's mouth with pieces of cloth, pushing them unbearably and squeezing them with the palm of his hands. In fact, the stubborn criminal blocked her nose."

They may have found cloth in her mouth so they know she was gagged. She died from suffocation due to airway obstruction (asphyxiation) but we don't know exactly how. The perp could have used his hands or a blanket or a pillow.

They go on to say that "the authorities have in their hands a video with a suspicious man, who at 5:30 in the early hours of Tuesday is outside the house." They say that it has not been excluded that the robbers had an accomplice, who was guarding chilies and possibly informed him as to whether to stay or leave the house.

Police estimate that the family had been the target of the perpetrators for a long time and that they knew the movements of both the 32 year old and his wife. The three perpetrators, according to the experience of the experienced officers of the ELA's, are most likely marked by a rich criminal past.

They also say there was only one camera inside "which the perps located and turned to where he was looking so as not to be seen." Also, "When police arrived, they found the external security camera damaged."

I've read similar details in other articles. Has all this been discounted by LE?

 

[Frannie]

Did they have any friends? Have they been interviewed? Just to get a glimpse at what their daily life was like.

Past girlfriends/boyfriends to get a better idea of their personalities, jealous, possessive, easy going etc ?

 

[everybodhi]

It begins with "her husband was handcuffed, tortured, and killed inside her house," which obviously is not accurate.

As far as the COD, it looks like they quoted the ME's findings as "Airway obstruction as a result of suffocation," and the rest is speculation. I doubt the ME said "the killer allegedly closed the girl's mouth with pieces of cloth, pushing them unbearably and squeezing them with the palm of his hands. In fact, the stubborn criminal blocked her nose."

They may have found cloth in her mouth so they know she was gagged. She died from suffocation due to airway obstruction (asphyxiation) but we don't know exactly how. The perp could have used his hands or a blanket or a pillow.

They go on to say that "the authorities have in their hands a video with a suspicious man, who at 5:30 in the early hours of Tuesday is outside the house." They say that it has not been excluded that the robbers had an accomplice, who was guarding chilies and possibly informed him as to whether to stay or leave the house.

Police estimate that the family had been the target of the perpetrators for a long time and that they knew the movements of both the 32 year old and his wife. The three perpetrators, according to the experience of the experienced officers of the ELA's, are most likely marked by a rich criminal past.

They also say there was only one camera inside "which the perps located and turned to where he was looking so as not to be seen." Also, "When police arrived, they found the external security camera damaged."

I've read similar details in other articles. Has all this been discounted by LE?

Having followed this case since it happened I can confidently say that if you read every media report you will find numerous inconsistencies, there are also TV interviews with law enforcement, adding more inconsistencies to the written media inconsistencies.

 

[Dotta]

It begins with "her husband was handcuffed, tortured, and killed inside her house," which obviously is not accurate.

As far as the COD, it looks like they quoted the ME's findings as "Airway obstruction as a result of suffocation," and the rest is speculation. I doubt the ME said "the killer allegedly closed the girl's mouth with pieces of cloth, pushing them unbearably and squeezing them with the palm of his hands. In fact, the stubborn criminal blocked her nose."

They may have found cloth in her mouth so they know she was gagged. She died from suffocation due to airway obstruction (asphyxiation) but we don't know exactly how. The perp could have used his hands or a blanket or a pillow.

They go on to say that "the authorities have in their hands a video with a suspicious man, who at 5:30 in the early hours of Tuesday is outside the house." They say that it has not been excluded that the robbers had an accomplice, who was guarding chilies and possibly informed him as to whether to stay or leave the house.

Police estimate that the family had been the target of the perpetrators for a long time and that they knew the movements of both the 32 year old and his wife. The three perpetrators, according to the experience of the experienced officers of the ELA's, are most likely marked by a rich criminal past.

They also say there was only one camera inside "which the perps located and turned to where he was looking so as not to be seen." Also, "When police arrived, they found the external security camera damaged."

I've read similar details in other articles. Has all this been discounted by LE?

I have no idea any more I dont know what is a fantasy of a journalist and what is a fact given by LE. Im disgusted by this " dancing on Caroline's grave". As we say in my country: Quiet while standing above this coffin.

 

[everybodhi]

Did they have any friends? Have they been interviewed? Just to get a glimpse at what their daily life was like.

Past girlfriends/boyfriends to get a better idea of their personalities, jealous, possessive, easy going etc ?

It has been said they had a “fairytale romance” they met when she was 16, it was love at first sight and they married when she turned 18. When she went to events with her girlfriends, he would surprise her by showing up and joining them. This is all posted previously in the thread with links.

 

[Patrick Jane]

I keep coming back to the amount of cameras inside this house. I can't get my head around why the perps would take the time to locate every single camera and remove every single memory card! Have the memory cards been located? Or alternatively why would you have so many cameras inside and not have memory cards in them?

Also strange to have so many internal cameras but none externally. I'm trying to figure out the thought process behind that.

When I first heard the media video report of 6-8 interior cameras I couldn't believe it. I listened to it five times and still asked Caylee to confirm that I wasn't hearing things.

What SB (LE) said precisely was that LE looked for memory cards in the cameras, but there were no memory cards in the camera. (I definitely posted this video and translation, but in the first, not second thread, I believe).

Other LE interview with media have all confirmed that there were no memory cards found inside the cameras.

 

[catchingdelivery]

It has been said they had a “fairytale romance” they met when she was 16, it was love at first sight and they married when she turned 18. When she went to events with her girlfriends, he would surprise her by showing up and joining them. This is all posted previously in the thread with links.

"fairytale" indeed :|

 

[DeLu]

These are also my thoughts about this case.. One day the news say this about something and the next day they say that about the same something. I can't recall any other crime in Greece that the news reported with so many inconsistencies. It makes it so hard to get even the slightest bit straight and get your facts right.

 

[catchingdelivery]

(SBM)

Hanging the dog seems like overkill to me.

I agree.

Overkill is usually a sign of something personal, someone close to the victim, to want to inflict that kind of pain or punishment.

In thread 1 someone asked if the dog was more Caroline's pet than her husband's but there wasn't an answer. (It could be possible as Caroline likely spent a lot more time with the dog than Babis while she was at home and he was working). If the reason for the theatrical overkill of the dog was to hurt Caroline, the killer would have to have known the pet was hers, suggesting they knew each other.

Having said that... I don't know how else you'd kill a dog? I've never thought about it. Whatever the reason for doing it, it can't have been easy to hang the poor dog. (sorry if this is distressing to anyone)