Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #3 *ARREST*

[MsBetsy]

IMO the Mirror was just doing some very lazy reporting here. Following the link to the report, the coroner does say that C was asleep 7 minutes before he started killing her, at 3:58am. It doesn't say that that's when she fell asleep though: in fact it says that the coroner considers she was asleep from 1:41 to 3:51am, as well as at 3:58am, indicating that C was probably asleep the whole time from 1:41 to 4:05am.

Yes, thank you. That was the timeframe I referred to earlier when I said it was more like two hours, but I couldn't remember the exact times.

 

[Dotta]

Animal welfare group release picture of puppy that Caroline Crouch's killer strangled | Daily Mail Online

Such sweet beautiful puppy Rot in your cell monster!

 

[Patrick Jane]

3:05 newsman: in your opinion is there a third person involved here?
experienced well-known lawyer: (let's out a sigh) I think in a week from now we'll have a solution
newswoman: what do you mean?
lawyer: using logic here . . . B showed such a level of coolness (emotionless) in front of the cameras, only hours after the murder he committed . . . such an eerie image of coolness, shows that this was premeditated . . . and the premeditation, we don't know if it was a day, a week, or a month ahead of time . . . using logic, this wasn't some random event
5:12 newsman: so you're telling us that some things (pieces) are missing from the puzzle?
5:14 lawyer: many things (pieces) are missing from the puzzle. If persons or motive or accessory are missing from the puzzle . . . I think LE has done excellent work . . .
5:33 newswoman: therefore you're saying you're not persuaded by the motive given by B in his plea?
lawyer: goes on to describe the suffocation of C could have been 5 minutes, but might have been as much as 8-10 minutes
6:44 newsman: in other words, he was determined to kill her
6:50 lawyer: these things are for the authorities (i.e. prosecution, examining judge) to assess, and I think we have a considerable amount of road ahead (in this case)

the lawyer says a lot, but I've edited it to give you what I see as the highlights

 

[Lola68]

I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm just curious to know whether it's possible to experience some kind of stress-induced psychosis where the brain can't process the information, so creates an alternative reality which enables the person to function calmly and (in their mind) totally reasonably in the circumstances? I find it very strange that B seems so detached from the enormity of what he's done - it's almost as though in this respect he's not acting but genuinely believes his actions are justified (including killing the dog) - that there was no other way open to him . He doesn't even seem to realise the contradiction in his statement that he was always helpful to the police and supported the investigation when he was derailing the course of justice at every turn. Is it arrogance or delusion? JIMO

 

[Patrick Jane]

Did anybody see the armada of police cars that drove him to the courthouse? And again he had a bulletproof vest and the S.W.A.T. team protection for the walk to the courthouse. How many S.W.A.T. members were guarding him? 20 S.W.A.T. members? This is not normal. Something is going on. IMO

 

[Estelle]

I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm just curious to know whether it's possible to experience some kind of stress-induced psychosis where the brain can't process the information, so creates an alternative reality which enables the person to function calmly and (in their mind) totally reasonably in the circumstances? I find it very strange that B seems so detached from the enormity of what he's done - it's almost as though in this respect he's not acting but genuinely believes his actions are justified (including killing the dog) - that there was no other way open to him . He doesn't even seem to realise the contradiction in his statement that he was always helpful to the police and supported the investigation when he was derailing the course of justice at every turn. Is it arrogance or delusion? JIMO

It's narcissistic personality disorder.

 

[Lola68]

I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm just curious to know whether it's possible to experience some kind of stress-induced psychosis where the brain can't process the information, so creates an alternative reality which enables the person to function calmly and (in their mind) totally reasonably in the circumstances? I find it very strange that B seems so detached from the enormity of what he's done - it's almost as though in this respect he's not acting but genuinely believes his actions are justified (including killing the dog) - that there was no other way open to him . He doesn't even seem to realise the contradiction in his statement that he was always helpful to the police and supported the investigation when he was derailing the course of justice at every turn. Is it arrogance or delusion? JIMO

Not dissimilar to Chris Watts and that was premeditated, but his behaviour was totally off from the beginning as well. It's almost as if he felt he didn't need to act like he was worried or upset. He did what he had to do to be with his new girlfriend and not Shannan.

 

[MsBetsy]

I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm just curious to know whether it's possible to experience some kind of stress-induced psychosis where the brain can't process the information, so creates an alternative reality which enables the person to function calmly and (in their mind) totally reasonably in the circumstances? I find it very strange that B seems so detached from the enormity of what he's done - it's almost as though in this respect he's not acting but genuinely believes his actions are justified (including killing the dog) - that there was no other way open to him . He doesn't even seem to realise the contradiction in his statement that he was always helpful to the police and supported the investigation when he was derailing the course of justice at every turn. Is it arrogance or delusion? JIMO

I don't think he's psychotic or delusional, although he may have what's called "delusions of grandeur" which means he believes he is superior to everyone else. I think the rest is his inability to feel empathy, which would explain why he has not shown any remorse. In his mind, his actions were justified. He's probably always been this way. Imo

 

[Dotta]

I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm just curious to know whether it's possible to experience some kind of stress-induced psychosis where the brain can't process the information, so creates an alternative reality which enables the person to function calmly and (in their mind) totally reasonably in the circumstances? I find it very strange that B seems so detached from the enormity of what he's done - it's almost as though in this respect he's not acting but genuinely believes his actions are justified (including killing the dog) - that there was no other way open to him . He doesn't even seem to realise the contradiction in his statement that he was always helpful to the police and supported the investigation when he was derailing the course of justice at every turn. Is it arrogance or delusion? JIMO

Absolutely disturbed and deluded. Living in his own imaginary world where he is an ultimate master. Shame on those close to him who knew and didn't rescue this poor naive girl and trusting faithful puppy! He had his own sessions with the therapist. Why?

 

[Dotta]

Did anybody see the armada of police cars that drove him to the courthouse? And again he had a bulletproof vest and the S.W.A.T. team protection for the walk to the courthouse. How many S.W.A.T. members were guarding him? 20 S.W.A.T. members? This is not normal. Something is going on. IMO

Mr AK thinks that too. Who knows? As a pilot and an emotionless deviant he certainly could be an asset to any gang.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Did anybody see the armada of police cars that drove him to the courthouse? And again he had a bulletproof vest and the S.W.A.T. team protection for the walk to the courthouse. How many S.W.A.T. members were guarding him? 20 S.W.A.T. members? This is not normal. Something is going on. IMO

There appears to be a black vest under the white bullet proof vest (see 1:18-1:25). Is he wearing two bulletproof vests?

 

[Dotta]

There appears to be a black vest under the white bullet proof vest. Is he wearing two bulletproof vests?

But head isn't protected.

 

[Estelle]

Did anybody see the armada of police cars that drove him to the courthouse? And again he had a bulletproof vest and the S.W.A.T. team protection for the walk to the courthouse. How many S.W.A.T. members were guarding him? 20 S.W.A.T. members? This is not normal. Something is going on. IMO

I'm starting to think that the organised crime that B could have been involved in is either the illegal drug trade or human trafficking. Human trafficking is considered the second largest source of illegal income, behind the illegal drug trade. It's an estimated US$150 billion industry, with almost a third of profits generated in wealthy industrialised countries. Trafficking is a relatively high profit, low-risk crime.

Is human trafficking common in Greece?
Characteristics. Over 60% of all migrants to Greece, legal and illegal, are female, and over 20,000 migrant women are trafficked annually to work in Greece. Approximately 40,000 women and children aged 12–25 are trafficked each year in Greece

Human trafficking in Greece has become the country's top crime over the years for many reasons. For starters, trafficking data has significantly increased due to standardized data collection and reporting. Also, Greece has the 11th longest coastline globally, making it popular for organized crime groups.

Combating Human Trafficking in Greece | The Borgen Project

 

[Estelle]

But head isnt protected.

That's what I was thinking the other day. If someone wanted to bump him off, all they had to do was aim for his head.

 

[Dotta]

I don't think he's psychotic or delusional, although he may have what's called "delusions of grandeur" which means he believes he is superior to everyone else. I think the rest is his inability to feel empathy, which would explain why he has not shown any remorse. In his mind, his actions were justified. He's probably always been this way. Imo

"Dlelusions of Grandeur" haha Describes him perfectly. My God, so many disturbed people walking among us - one must always trust one's intuition!

 

[Patrick Jane]

I'm starting to think that the organised crime that B could have been involved in is either the illegal drug trade or human trafficking. Human trafficking is considered the second largest source of illegal income, behind the illegal drug trade. It's an estimated US$150 billion industry, with almost a third of profits generated in wealthy industrialised countries. Trafficking is a relatively high profit, low-risk crime.

Is human trafficking common in Greece?
Characteristics. Over 60% of all migrants to Greece, legal and illegal, are female, and over 20,000 migrant women are trafficked annually to work in Greece. Approximately 40,000 women and children aged 12–25 are trafficked each year in Greece

Human trafficking in Greece has become the country's top crime over the years for many reasons. For starters, trafficking data has significantly increased due to standardized data collection and reporting. Also, Greece has the 11th longest coastline globally, making it popular for organized crime groups.

Combating Human Trafficking in Greece | The Borgen Project

If human trafficking is going on, then perhaps this post in the thread is significant. I mean why did B take C to this particular island in 2017? How did he know about it? Was it by chance? Or was it significant and related to the "other crimes" AK is referring to?

I've been following this story since B's first interview lying about foreigners torturing and killing his wife in front of their baby. Like C, I'm a Filipino who was born and raised abroad. I live in the Philippines now and C looks a lot like a relative of mine.

From the beginning, C's ethnicity would get brought up in the various forums I read, mostly about her mom and cultural differences. Some people brought up that B had a fetish for C. I tried to dismiss it and give B the benefit of the doubt in the beginning. Sometimes, you don't always want to think it just comes down to race and the stereotypes involved. It seems clear to me now that her Eurasian looks did have something to do with why a 28 year old full grown man would take interest in a 15 year old girl.

I saw her instagram account. She had several pictures with B on vacation in the Philippines in 2017. I found it somewhat suspicious that the pictures were all on a particular island where you see many older white men with very young local women or girls. At first, I dismissed it and thought that island has good diving spots. Yet, I couldn't help but wonder why they would come all the way from Europe and go to that island when there are much better diving areas in the country like Palawan.

Caroline was young and had the looks he wanted but she grew up in Europe and had a British passport. She had a lot of options and opportunities. She was growing into a woman and probably didn't conform to that docile, submissive stereotype he fantasized about when he first saw her at 15.

Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if he got out in 20 years, came back to the Philippines and found himself another teenager to control and fulfill his fantasies. Next time, he'll probably choose someone very poor, maybe one of the numerous Amerasian girls living near the abandoned U.S. Naval bases trying to find a way to take care of her family.

He killed his teenage wife and her puppy in front of his baby daughter. I feel really nervous for the next girl he finds when he gets out of prison, if he goes to prison.

 

[Estelle]

Mr AK thinks that too. Who knows? As a pilot and an emotionless deviant he certainly could be an asset to any gang.

If C found out about his organised crime activities and his crime boss found out she knew, he might have been told it's either you kill C or I will kill you both!

 

[Elley Mae]

3:05 newsman: in your opinion is there a third person involved here?
experienced well-known lawyer: (let's out a sigh) I think in a week from now we'll have a solution
newswoman: what do you mean?
lawyer: using logic here . . . B showed such a level of coolness (emotionless) in front of the cameras, only hours after the murder he committed . . . such an eerie image of coolness, shows that this was premeditated . . . and the premeditation, we don't know if it was a day, a week, or a month ahead of time . . . using logic, this wasn't some random event
5:12 newsman: so you're telling us that some things (pieces) are missing from the puzzle?
5:14 lawyer: many things (pieces) are missing from the puzzle. If persons or motive or accessory are missing from the puzzle . . . I think LE has done excellent work . . .
5:33 newswoman: therefore you're saying you're not persuaded by the motive given by B in his plea?
lawyer: goes on to describe the suffocation of C could have been 5 minutes, but might have been as much as 8-10 minutes
6:44 newsman: in other words, he was determined to kill her
6:50 lawyer: these things are for the authorities (i.e. prosecution, examining judge) to assess, and I think we have a considerable amount of road ahead (in this case)

the lawyer says a lot, but I've edited it to give you what I see as the highlights

Snippets

Thanassis Katerinopoulos, a retired brigadier who leads the union of Greek police officers, told Alpha TV: “There is more to this and authorities must go all the way to the end.”

“No one kills out of jealousy. There was a plan,” Katerinopoulos said, suggesting that Crouch may have found out about activities her husband was involved with that she disagreed with.

“In the murder, there is only one person, the culprit, but I believe there are others in another system which drove him to the murder of his wife for other reasons.”

Greek pilot who confessed to killing wife may have had help: report

 

[Estelle]

Snippets

Thanassis Katerinopoulos, a retired brigadier who leads the union of Greek police officers, told Alpha TV: “There is more to this and authorities must go all the way to the end.”

“No one kills out of jealousy. There was a plan,” Katerinopoulos said, suggesting that Crouch may have found out about activities her husband was involved with that she disagreed with.

“In the murder, there is only one person, the culprit, but I believe there are others in another system which drove him to the murder of his wife for other reasons.”

Greek pilot who confessed to killing wife may have had help: report

That is the way I see it now.

 

[Estelle]

Do you remember reading about a black BMW that was seen leaving the area on the day of the murder? What happened about that?