Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #3 *ARREST*

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  • #561
Like you, I seldom believe these domestic murders come out of the blue during "a fight" one night.

He will have been toying with the idea for some time. Thinking how he could do it. Drawing inspiration for reported home invasions. The other thing we know about these guys is they are very controlling, until they move on - then the life of the victim is nothing to them.

Likely we are going to find something in the background where he made the calculation that CC was now a problem for him, rather than someone to be possessed.

I think the comparison to Pistorius is an apt one. A guy on the fringes of crime, increasingly reckless. We just never found out what Reeva was threatening to reveal.

What may have happened, is CC forced him to act before he was ready.

I agree with you. I think there were two previous times that CC had written in her diary (that we have been privy to so far) that she claimed that she wanted to leave B. So this night was not the first time. If he was aware that she was privy to some organised crime secrets, he did not want her leaving him and telling police.

It appears that just after midnight on the day of her murder, CC had phoned about booking accommodation three times (although most media articles say once). IMO B probably overheard the calls and prevented her from leaving that night perhaps saying to her, "Get some sleep and I will take you tomorrow". He then realised that he had to act fast and put his plan into action. I was amazed that she was able to go to sleep that night.

As for OP, a well-known member of the OP thread and I used to communicate privately. One day she wrote to me at the end of the case and asked me my opinion about whether I thought OP's secret (that Reeva was going to expose) was that he was a homosexual and I agreed with her. We had never felt that he and Reeva had ever had a sexual relationship but she had other evidence which backed up this theory.
 
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  • #562
Could the injuries be due to her trying to use a phone and him trying to take it off her.

Yes if earlier in the evening when she was trying to book accommodation three times just after midnight. Also I read that he put cotton in her mouth so it may have occurred when he was doing this.
 
  • #563
I hope when this creep is in prison, he'll have an extremely hard time, with other prisoners for killing the innocent little dog.
 
  • #564
I hope when this creep is in prison, he'll have an extremely hard time, with other prisoners for killing the innocent little dog.

But also as a wife killer.
 
  • #565
I wanted to swear when I saw your post.

Not at you Tmar. At him :mad: I controlled myself.

I hope when this creep is in prison, he'll have an extremely hard time, with other prisoners for killing the innocent little dog.
 
  • #566
I wanted to swear when I saw your post.

Not at you Tmar. At him :mad: I controlled myself.

Last night, after hearing the creep had hung the innocent pet, I kept thinking about the cruelty to animals, and this murderer, besides killing his wife, will pay.
Yippee.
 
  • #567
Definitely, but she was a child for most of it, and, as the police psychologist said (via lifo.gr), it is not normal for a 29 or 30 year old male to pursue a 15 or 16 year old teen.
Thank you for this link!

I cut out translation of much of this long interview but it's good to see some thoughts of a real psychologist after he has spoken to Babis.
(Psychologist' quotations in color)
Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Ψυχολόγος ΕΛ.ΑΣ για συζυγοκτόνο - «Έδρασε με συνείδηση» | LiFO

"From the beginning, the 33-year-old pilot was not emotionally conscious and that continues to play a role", explains the psychologist of the Greek Police who spoke with Babis after his confession of the murder.

"Even the way he killed, that she died in his arms, he had physical contact with the victim and that she was murdered while with their child also shows the lack of feeling for the act of murder.
Even if you try to justify a murder then it shows a lack of emotion.
This is also evident from the fact that he took a puppy that was not even a year old, and hung it from the stairs to justify an act and set a scene. He has already committed one murder and is committing a second. They adopted the puppy with the sense of him growing up with their baby. That is, symbolically, if one sees this, it is very sick".


At the same time, he emphasizes that animal abuse is directly linked to human abuse behavior.
Referring to the baby, he notes that she will need a lot of support.

"It is very tragic that this child when she grows up will learn that her father killed her mom. It can not be kept secret. She will see posts of the time. A very difficult way to start one's life and this is perhaps the most tragic of all beyond the murder of the victim herself"


He points out that what also worries him is the fact that the couple is very different in age, as their relationship started when Caroline was a teenager (15-16) while Babis was approaching 30.

"She was a girl who was married to a man much older and their relationship was unequal. There is no balance in it to be normal. For example, a girl is not 22 years old and he is 30, or she is 16 years old and he is 18. The relationship started when she was 16 and her partner was almost 30.
The difference is big and it worries what he saw in a girl aged 15-16. A man at this age is not normally attracted to a girl of that age".


As he explains in most cases this shows a lack of personality, confidence and security.
That is, older men looking for younger girls often has to do with the fact that they cannot attract companions of similar age and maturity to them.

As he states, what impresses him is how a young girl wants to have a baby so quickly when their relationship had just started, she already had a miscarriage at a young age and the couple is trying so soon again for a baby.

"It is not normal"

The expert states that this event affected their relationship and does not hesitate to emphasize the social issue that arises from the case of Caroline.

"It should make us wonder what is it that makes a man 27-28 years old fall in love, get married, and have a relationship with a girl who is 15-16 years old?
What do we do as a society for this thing?
How much does the social, the professional status matter in how we react to it?
If he was not a helicopter pilot and did another profession, what would we do in this case?"

"Many times we see, hear, understand things, and leave them without paying attention to them, either considering that it is not our business or that they do not concern us or because we are afraid to get involved..
..domestic violence and abuse exist to a large extent not only because there are perpetrators but because there is an environment that is completely indifferent to what is happening.
No one knows what can happen in a house, but no one can believe that everything is angelic
[a fairy tale?] while it is not."

He emphasizes that we should have a more active role towards people who are perhaps weaker to ask for help themselves.
 
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  • #568
This has been linked before (by @tayaway ) but I'm highlighting it again because it may have been buried in all the conversation and speculation about B's other criminal activities -


Testimony of the Medical Examiner

The medical examiner had examined B on 11th May and ruled out that he had been unconscious for a long period -


"The loss of consciousness in a person for any reason such as fear, hypoglycemia or temporary suffocation, is expected to last 10 minutes and in no case two hours" "I rule out the possibility that the man I examined, 33 years old, a pilot by profession and without a brain injury, has remained in a state of anesthesia for two hours"


Caroline had been asleep for two and a half hours before her murder. Her death lasted 6 minutes -


"From the data recorded in the victim's smart watch and exposed to me, I estimate the following: The heart rate of a person at rest or in physical activity depends on many factors such as age, heart condition or whether the person is in a state of physical or mental stress. From the values you mention to me, I consider that the heart rate from 48 to 58, which is recorded 1:41 to 3:51 on May 11, 2021, corresponds to a period of sleep. I consider the same for the recording at 3:58 when the pulses are 61 per minute. At 4:05 the pulse increases by about 50% from the rest of the sleeper. I believe that at that time the person was in a state of very strong mental or physical stress. Given that I have determined the time of death at the time of the site autopsy at five to six hours from 10 o'clock at the time of the autopsy, I consider it perfectly compatible that the process of the death mechanism took place from 4:05 until 4:11. At 4:11 o'clock is the last recording of the smart watch and I believe that death occurred immediately after."


Κατάθεση «καταπέλτης» της ιατροδικαστού για τον πιλότο: Αποκλείω να ή
 
  • #569
I read that she would have turned 20yo in July, 2021 so she was only 19yo. Her birthdate is on her grave.
I hope they change the photo on her grave soon, she's in her wedding dress.
In retrospect, it's very creepy.
44464653-9706713-image-a-20_1624225030136-jpg.301518
 

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  • #572
I'm sure we'll soon have murderers all over the world now removing their "about to be victims" smart watches.
 
  • #573
I don't know why they feel the need to keep printing this baby's name, they seem to have no consciousness of not naming minors.
They name her in the first sentence assuring a future search of her name will bring up this article

Yes, I agree. I’m not sure what the legalities are in Greece regarding this but in the U.K. they don’t use the child’s name.

I will edit my post as I’ve noticed I have used her name without thinking about it :(
 
  • #574
Yes, I agree. I’m not sure what the legalities are in Greece regarding this but in the U.K. they don’t use the child’s name.

I will edit my post as I’ve noticed I have used her name without thinking about it :(
Haha I didn't even notice you used it but I'm all over the press :p
 
  • #575
I know that it's very unlikely to happen, and that, should it happen, it would be heartbreaking for both families, but I feel that it would be better if baby Lydia has her name changed, and is given to a 3rd party to be raised by, preferably somewhere other than Greece. Her maternal grandparents, I'd imagine, are not capable of caring for a baby/child, considering that they are grieving for their daughter's gruesome death, Caroline's father has health problems AND they live in a tiny island, where everyone knows each other, and they all know who Lydia is and her tragic story. Staying with her father's family is not ideal either, because certainly, when she grows up, she's gonna have questions. And even if they present her a more child-friendly version of the story, all she has to do, in order to find out the truth, is browse the web. Not to mention that the 🤬🤬🤬 will spend, at best, 20 years in prison, and once he's out, he'll definitely try to contact her and tell her the same BS he says now (Your mom was crazy/was abusing me/it happened by accident/I only had your best interest in mind etc). If she stays here, unfortunately, she'll find out what happened, sooner or later. In order to have a shot at a normal childhood/life, IMO, she must not find out who she is or what her father did.
 
  • #576
I am new here! This might help:

"Injuries were found on the victim's lips and tongue, as well as on the neck where the abrasion may be due to the use of a sharp object. In the genetic organs, on the other hand, there were no signs of betrayal.

What causes shudder is the degree of facial falsification, as 'multiple suffocating spots are identified,' as the report specifically states. Extensive bleeding is also visible in the eyes.'"

Link: Γλυκά Νερά: Ο θάνατος ήταν αγωνιώδης και όχι ακαριαίος – Τι δείχνει η ιατροδικαστική έκθεση για τη δολοφονία της Καρολάιν
Thank you, and welcome to Websleuths!

The "facial falsification" may refer to petechiae (broken capillaries) or cyanosis, a purplish discoloration caused by lack of oxygen. Both are common with strangulation or suffocation.

I did read that she had injuries to her lips and tongue and wondered if she bit herself while struggling to breathe.

I'm not sure about the sharp injuries on the neck. Sometimes that's caused by the perpetrator using his hands or squeezing the neck, leaving fingernail abrasions, especially if the victim is struggling. But apparently he didn't use his hands so maybe he used another object.

Either way, it's obvious that she fought for her life and it was an agonizing death. I think the whole thing lasted 10 minutes, from the time he started smothering her until she died. Her rate rate probably suddenly increased when she woke up and began to struggle. B never mentioned that she said anything while he was telling her what she did to the baby was bad, probably because she never had the chance.

IMO
 
  • #577
Agree. In anaesthesia we sometimes use laryngeal mask airways which are smooth gel like rubber and lubricated, designed for use in the oropharynx, and can still cause tears and abrasions. I can imagine balled up clothing or fabric in someone fighting for their life, causing friction tears:

six minutes is a long time to hold onto someone struggling - I can't even plank for 45 seconds barely! It is very obvious you are strangling and smothering someone, they will be choking. It's kind of obvious you don't stuff clothes in someone's mouth and hold them against a surface face down until they go limp...

his absolute nutty lies remind me of the Grace Millane killer: absolutely delusional and history of insane lying. I bet there's form with this dude.

animal abuse is so strongly linked to human abuse - its people who are happy to take on things more vulnerable than themselves. Baby would not have been safe either if she annoyed him or kept crying one night.

I really feel bad as I'd put the age gap down to like the Filipino mother's age gap with her husband but Caroline was a modern girl in a modern society and it is weird a full grown man seeking out a schoolgirl. Very messed up indeed.

this guy....CREEP!!
 
  • #578
This zougla.gr article is from 2015. Superior Air, the company that employed B, brought Santa and a bunch of gifts for kids via helicopter. Can you spot B?

Anybody think the owner of co, Elias Sofianos, is also being investigated with regards to the $ouda, Crete, connection, or... nobody B worked with knew anything?
 
  • #579
animal abuse is so strongly linked to human abuse - its people who are happy to take on things more vulnerable than themselves. Baby would not have been safe either if she annoyed him or kept crying one night.

SBM

I'm so relieved that while B currently has legal custody, his parents are the ones taking care of her. eta: I mean, obviously, before he was carted off to jail.
 
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  • #580
I'm sure we'll soon have murderers all over the world now removing their "about to be victims" smart watches.
Tech creates a conundrum for abusers seeking control; how does one track their object/source without implicating themselves if the discipline goes too far?

this guy with his creeper app..
 
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