Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #3 *ARREST*

[jenn83]

Whew, this thread is getting hard to keep up with

 

[Wishingwell]

Snipped by me

Just so I understand @tayaway, are you saying that Fotis
did have "negative comments" about B or that he did "notice B's disturbed personality" (unlike everyone else).

Thanks

There was an article referring to F that stated the following:-
Quote
A pal on the island told SunOnline: “He is in a state of shock and absolutely distraught. All of his sympathy is with Susan and David. He wants nothing to do with his brother.”

This was taken from The Sun though so I don’t know how accurate it is

 

[Dotta]

There was an article referring to Fotis that stated the following:-

A pal on the island told SunOnline: “He is in a state of shock and absolutely distraught. All of his sympathy is with Susan and David. He wants nothing to do with his brother.”

This was taken from The Sun though so I don’t know how accurate it is

But at least it is in English

 

[Patrick Jane]

23:00 newsman: the woman you see here in the video holding the baby is the mother of B. It's the morning of the murder . . . I told you all (the viewers) this also yesterday. This was the first time that the grandmother embraced her grandchild in her arms. An eleven month old baby. She had never embraced her before. It was an attempt by B to keep everyone at a distance.
28:54 lawyer for C's family: we're searching for the motive
newsman: what do you mean?
lawyer: Greek justice system will find out, just like LE found out things . . .
newsman: Is there something that isn't known (to the public)?
lawyer: a premeditated murder always has a motive
newsman: so the motive may be something other than what we've been hearing (in the press)? Something else?
lawyer: for the present I can't answer this question, but perhaps I can answer at a later time
newsman: you're leaving it (the issue) open in other words?
lawyer: something like that

 

[Winterbells]

I even think she was pregnant (1st pregnancy that ended with miscarriage) that time. Thats why she was given parental consent and the wedding was rushed and even her friends weren't informed. Shotgun wedding??

Yes, I've been thinking the same thing @Dotta

 

[Winterbells]

Do we know how good B's understanding of English is?

I think I read somewhere that he did some of his pilot training in the UK (Liverpool?). Plus, he was quick enough to respond to the British journalist who said something along the lines of 'have you got anything to say to the UK public, who're very upset about this?' and flying Babis replied 'not as much as me' did he not?

 

[Skigh]

23:00 newsman: the woman you see here in the video holding the baby is the mother of B. It's the morning of the murder . . . I told you all (the viewers) this also yesterday. This was the first time that the grandmother embraced her grandchild in her arms. An eleven month old baby. She had never embraced her before. It was an attempt by B to keep everyone at a distance.
28:54 lawyer for C's family: we're searching for the motive
newsman: what do you mean?
lawyer: Greek justice system will find out, just like LE found out things . . .
newsman: Is there something that isn't known (to the public)?
lawyer: a premeditated murder always has a motive
newsman: so the motive may be something other than what we've been hearing (in the press)? Something else?
lawyer: for the present I can't answer this question, but perhaps I can answer at a later time
newsman: you're leaving it (the issue) open in other words?
lawyer: something like that

Wow. So the first time that B' s mother held the baby was on the morning of the murder. How unkind not to have taken her to visit before.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Was it because of Covid ?

Wow. So the first time that B' s mother held the baby was on the morning of the murder. How unkind not to have taken her to visit before.

 

[Dotta]

Wow. So the first time that B' s mother held the baby was on the morning of the murder. How unkind not to have taken her to visit before.

Both families dynamics are absolutely weird - grannies cut off, wedding without parents, strange solitude of the pair.

 

[Dotta]

So... According to Greek Family Law - B as a "loving parent" will have many privilges: paroles to meet a child and a shortened sentence. As I say - a good lawyer is "half a success".

 

[Winterbells]

Even if C did give B a slap from time to time, or kicked him away from her, I don't see that as 'abuse'. Women use aggression/violence for very different reasons to men (my opinion only). A cold, gaslighting, emotionally unavailable man can drive some women to total frustration - something that some men absolutely delight in seeing, because then they can then claim 'look how crazy and unreasonable you are'.

 

[caylee17799]

23:00 newsman: the woman you see here in the video holding the baby is the mother of B. It's the morning of the murder . . . I told you all (the viewers) this also yesterday. This was the first time that the grandmother embraced her grandchild in her arms. An eleven month old baby. She had never embraced her before. It was an attempt by B to keep everyone at a distance.
28:54 lawyer for C's family: we're searching for the motive
newsman: what do you mean?
lawyer: Greek justice system will find out, just like LE found out things . . .
newsman: Is there something that isn't known (to the public)?
lawyer: a premeditated murder always has a motive
newsman: so the motive may be something other than what we've been hearing (in the press)? Something else?
lawyer: for the present I can't answer this question, but perhaps I can answer at a later time
newsman: you're leaving it (the issue) open in other words?
lawyer: something like that

But no, he'll probably state that it was just because of the pandemic, and quarantine, and social distancing, and him worrying that his parents would catch covid if they visited them. I can already hear him saying it.
B's parents lived in Agia Paraskevi, hardly a 10-15 minute drive from Glyka Nera. And anyone who's been in Greece, or has Greek relatives, knows how Greek grandparents are. They are all over their grandchildren, spoiling them to pieces, having them in the countryside with them during the summer months, while the parents are working, taking care of them during workdays, sometimes even raising them themselves. The Greek tradition even calls for children to be named after their grandparents- usually the first-born girl is named after the maternal grandmother, and the first-born boy after the paternal grandfather. So I find it heartbreaking, at the very least, that it took this entire tragedy, for that woman to be able to take her granddaughter into her arms. And, at the same time, I can't help but wonder, how was he able to do that? How was he able to keep his parents, who lived nearby, away from his life, and away from their granddaughter, for a whole year?

 

[Dotta]

But no, he'll probably state that it was just because of the pandemic, and quarantine, and social distancing, and him worrying that his parents would catch covid if they visited them. I can already hear him saying it.
B's parents lived in Agia Paraskevi, hardly a 10-15 minute drive from Glyka Nera. And anyone who's been in Greece, or has Greek relatives, knows how Greek grandparents are. They are all over their grandchildren, spoiling them to pieces, having them in the countryside with them during the summer months, while the parents are working, taking care of them during workdays, sometimes even raising them themselves. The Greek tradition even calls for children to be named after their grandparents- usually the first-born girl is named after the maternal grandmother, and the first-born boy after the paternal grandfather. So I find it heartbreaking, at the very least, that it took this entire tragedy, for that woman to be able to take her granddaughter to her arms. And, at the same time, I can't help but wonder, how was he able to do that? How was he able to keep his parents, who lived nearby, away from his life, and away from their granddaughter, for a whole year?

Maybe he was raised that way? How do we know? He was the product of his family. Maybe his obssession with L is sth like: I will give my child sth I never had.

 

[Winterbells]

Something about the use of the word 'cursed' in 'C's diary bothers me.
Brits don't say 'cursed at him', they say 'swore at him'. It's an Americanism used by many people for whom British English isn't their mother tongue.
I assume C spoke fluent English as well as Greek and perhaps Tagalog too, from her mother? (Her British father would certainly have used the word 'swore' not 'cursed').
I imagine B would say 'cursed' though and C could have picked this up along the way too, but it did jump out at me when I saw it. In fact, the most 'natural' thing would be to say exactly what the 'curse' was, ie. 'I told him to f*** o**', for example.

 

[Dotta]

Something about the use of the word 'cursed' in 'C's diary bothers me.
Brits don't say 'cursed at him', they say 'swore at him'. It's an Americanism used by many people for whom British English isn't their mother tongue.
I assume C spoke fluent English as well as Greek and perhaps Tagalog too, from her mother? (Her British father would certainly have used the word 'swore' not 'cursed').
I imagine B would say 'cursed' though and C could have picked this up along the way too, but it did jump out at me when I saw it. In fact, the most 'natural' thing would be to say exactly what the 'curse' was, ie. 'I told him to f*** o**', for example.

But you read the translation from Greek.

 

[Skigh]

Maybe he was raised that way? How do we know? He was the product of his family. Maybe his obssession with L is sth like: I will give my child sth I never had.

I get the feeling his love for his baby has now been magnified to back up his story of why he killed C. He is cold and calculating.

 

[Dotta]

I get the feeling his love for his baby has now been magnified to back up his story of why he killed C. He is cold and calculating.

Maybe Yes, maybe No. We dont know - I would be cautious to see everything in black and white and state sth categorically when all we know is what press chooses to publish.

 

[caylee17799]

Something about the use of the word 'cursed' in 'C's diary bothers me.
Brits don't say 'cursed at him', they say 'swore at him'. It's an Americanism used by many people for whom British English isn't their mother tongue.
I assume C spoke fluent English as well as Greek and perhaps Tagalog too, from her mother? (Her British father would certainly have used the word 'swore' not 'cursed').
I imagine B would say 'cursed' though and C could have picked this up along the way too, but it did jump out at me when I saw it. In fact, the most 'natural' thing would be to say exactly what the 'curse' was, ie. 'I told him to f*** o**', for example.

Ο όρκος του πατέρα της Καρολάιν | Ειδήσεις - νέα - Το Βήμα Online
Yes, according to her father she spoke, besides Greek and English, also French and Tagalog.
Her alleged diary is in Greek, though, and she used the word "εβρισα". In Greek, curse/swear are both used, however they have different meanings. "Curse" is used in the context of "I place a curse on somebody", while "swear" could be interpreted as "I call sb names". So, you're right, the proper translation would be "swear", not because of the difference between British/American English, though, but because "curse" has actually a different meaning in Greek.

 

[Winterbells]

But you read the translation from Greek.

Ah. Ok. Oops.

 

[Omasa4]

I’m surprised that is the first time that the grandmother has seen baby L. However that took me back to a statement in CC diary

Caroline Crouch’s Diary Reveals the Greek Tragedy of her Marriage - BANKSNEWS.GR
“I am 18 years old and I want to try to have a baby! I haven’t told Babi yet. Because today we had a fight and I told him, just to hurt him, that sometimes I think it does not matter that we lost our baby because at least I do not need to see his family. I regretted it the moment I said it,” writes Crouch of her fights with her husband.”

This suggests to me that she did not have a good relationship with her in laws and was happy not to see them if she had a baby.

MOO