Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[everybodhi]

to summarize

K: "the timeline is very important. The time of death is important."
K: "the time of death is 4:20-4:30 a.m."
neighbor's testimony: "cries of dog and sound of dog being killed at 4:30 a.m."

Right there we can see the problem in the timeline.
It appears that the victim was murdered before the dog was killed.

According to this timeline, I think we can confidently say, after CC and the dog were killed, the murderer spent almost two hours in the house before BA was able to re-dial his neighbor friend and call emergency services.
It really bothers me that sweet baby girl wasn’t protected from this trauma and wasn’t allowed to sleep in her crib until the police arrived, that she was left in the bed with her dead mother really drives home the callousness of the killer.
I’m not so sure it’s as simple as, she’s too young to remember, losing your mama that way and left with her dead body for god knows how long is bound to have deep rooted psychological effects, even if it’s in the subconscious. jmo
Exploiting the mother’s love for her child, in order to accomplish the goal, was over once she was dead.
Why further involve the baby?
And the dog too, taken from his sleeping crate, it’s all so intimate and personal, it’s no wonder the police say this was “one of the most brutal crimes they’ve ever seen in Greek society, even for criminals”.

 

[Deleted member 287721]

Hi everyone! I just wanted to mention that I'm Greek and if you experience any problem with the translation don't hesitate to message me or tag me in any comment.

Also I'm pretty new here and I have to say that it's brilliant how you all try to connect everything.. I learnt a lot just by reading some comments here! I'm wishing that justice will come for Caroline..

 

[everybodhi]

Hi everyone! I just wanted to mention that I'm Greek and if you experience any problem with the translation don't hesitate to message me or tag me in any comment.

Also I'm pretty new here and I have to say that it's brilliant how you all try to connect everything.. I learnt a lot just by reading some comments here! I'm wishing that justice will come for Caroline..

Thank you! The Greek language media is much more informative than English news about this case, unfortunately Google translate isn’t the best, we really need all the translators we can get on this case.
Welcome to websleuths!

 

[Kemug]

Can we be sure that the print of the shoe "sole" wasn't actually the "sole" (ie only) print that was found?

 

[Angleterre]

“Mr Hasiotis [chief of the homicide department, who is leading the investigation] said that findings from the investigation showed that Crouch, an avid athlete and kick boxer, initially moved to resist her attackers.”

“An autopsy report from a state coroner on Wednesday said “no struggle appeared have ensued between the victim and her assailants. “There were no bruises or signs that she may have struggled with them.”

Young British woman strangled to death in front of child during Athens burglary.

Very bizarre yet interesting

 

[Angleterre]

That's what I mean - no struggle. Thats why I think she was attacked while asleep. Speculating of course because reports are conflicting.

Even if initially attacked while asleep, she would soon awaken as she was being suffocated, whatever way it occurred, unless drugged and knocked unconscious first....

 

[Carja7]

Random thoughts and completely MOO.

My sister and her family have extensive cameras and security for their home. So much so that it makes me nervous when I house sit that I'll set something off. Lol. It's not because of fortune, she is just an extremely anxious person. So I don't find the cameras odd. I DO find it odd "they" knew where the cameras were located, as they can be very descrete.

If she was asleep do you think the dog would be killed before or after her attack? I know my dog would put up a fight, or there would seem to be some noise? I believe I read it was a husky, they are especially vocal. Then to hang it seems to be a point.

I hope justice is found!

Imo

 

[Lola68]

K confirms this today in the video embedded in today's Ta Nea article.

He describes the things which the alleged perpetrators used and then says at 2:40 that they used "whatever they found inside the house."

That doesn't sound like forward planning on the part of the burglars - what if there wasn't anything suitable in the house to tie them up with?

 

[tayaway]

That doesn't sound like forward planning on the part of the burglars - what if there wasn't anything suitable in the house to tie them up with?

Are you saying electrical tape and string are suitable? Maybe the thieves simply forgot their thick black pillowcases and zip ties back in their vehicle?

...Was the dog crying or barking? Did the killer know Caroline and as such, killed Bruno out of spite? Do we know for a fact that the baby was on the bed for the entire time? Even LE found it odd if she was. How could Caroline be asleep when murdered, since Babis said that they were both pleading for their baby's life?

 

[Tortoise]

Another interesting snippet from an earlier article - Bruno the dog was kept in a crate (or wire cage) in the house at night. So he first had to be removed from the crate and then his lead attached. That is quite a bold move, to approach an unknown caged dog in a darkened house, IMO.



"Then they go up to the ground floor, where they find the family dog in a metal house. A medium-sized half-bred dog, very friendly, but starting to bark.

The robbers grab it from the cage and with the leash drag it to the built staircase that leads to the upper floors and in the second turn they pass the leash through the metal handrail. [...]

The time is 4.20 according to the testimony of the neighbor of the unfortunate couple who heard the barking and looked at the clock."

Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Η συγκλονιστική κατάθεση του άντρα της Καρολάιν

Just bringing this forward because this report gave a time of 4:20am for the neighbour looking at her clock.

 

[everybodhi]

Just bringing this forward because this report gave a time of 4:20am for the neighbour looking at her clock.

oh wow on the timeline
CC’s time of death 4:20-4:30, I wonder if her dog tried to stop her attacker?

edited to remove post I didn’t post, I have to remember to clear my window before I post

 

[Lola68]

CC’s time of death 4:20-4:30, I wonder if her dog tried to stop her attacker?

That was my thought as well

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Thanks, I suspected as much.
We are so lucky with you @Patrick Jane and @caylee17799 and @Tortoise and all the others who can translate and/or can help us to put whatever we read in perspective.
I for one appreciate it very much and I know others do too.

I want to second this emotion!

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Just dipping in and it seems things are just as unclear / ambiguous as they were on day one. I’ll continue sitting on my hands for now. Thanks for the updates everyone.... as always, better than reading the newspapers!

 

[Winterbells]

So, assuming the perps arrived at more or less the time the neighbour heard the dog (4.20am or 4.30am) and the police were called by B at around 6.30am (is that right?) the explanation for the 2-ish hours in between is the time it took for the perps to enter the building, tie up the couple, gather the info they wanted, locate the money and jewellery, remove the memory cards from the numerous internal cameras and murder Caroline and her dog (in what order, we don't know). Plus the time it took for B to recover from hypoxia and call the police... and his neighbour.
And we don't know where CC's estimated time of death came from - the autopsy, or the neighbour's statement about the dog barking.
Have I got this right?

 

[Tortoise]

So, assuming the perps arrived at more or less the time the neighbour heard the dog (4.20am or 4.30am) and the police were called by B at around 6.30am (is that right?) the explanation for the 2-ish hours in between is the time it took for the perps to enter the building, tie up the couple, gather the info they wanted, locate the money and jewellery, remove the memory cards from the numerous internal cameras and murder Caroline and her dog (in what order, we don't know). Plus the time it took for B to recover from hypoxia and call the police... and his neighbour.
And we don't know where CC's estimated time of death came from - the autopsy, or the neighbour's statement about the dog barking.
Have I got this right?

Yes, and 6:16am is when he called the police. Police arrived at 6:20am.

 

[Kemug]

I really don't know how to reconcile "initially moved to resist her attackers" with "no struggle appeared to have ensued"?

 

[Angleterre]

Ok, I found K's full title:

Πρόεδρος του Συλλόγου Αστυνομικών Υπαλλήλων Νοτιοανατολικής Αττικής
President of the Association of Police Officers (in the region of) Southeast Attica

I'd link the source but the Greek characters in the URL aren't able to be posted (to serve as a usable link) for some reason

ACPO is the equivalent in the U.K. as the police officers of the rank of Assistant Chief Constable and above so in other words, ACC, DCC ( Deputy Chief Constable) and CC (Chief Constable).
President of ACPO is the overall lead of all the assistant and deputy chief officers in the U.K.

 

[everybodhi]

So, assuming the perps arrived at more or less the time the neighbour heard the dog (4.20am or 4.30am) and the police were called by B at around 6.30am (is that right?) the explanation for the 2-ish hours in between is the time it took for the perps to enter the building, tie up the couple, gather the info they wanted, locate the money and jewellery, remove the memory cards from the numerous internal cameras and murder Caroline and her dog (in what order, we don't know). Plus the time it took for B to recover from hypoxia and call the police... and his neighbour.
And we don't know where CC's estimated time of death came from - the autopsy, or the neighbour's statement about the dog barking.
Have I got this right?

CC’s time of death, 4:20am-4:30am, came from K, the police officer in the interview.
Translated by Patrick Jane:
“K says the timeline is very important. the time of death is important.”
Bringing this forward from previous page.

I watched this again to see if the time that the alleged perpetrators entered is mentioned. K doesn't bring this up, but (at 1:06 in the video) the TV newsman says that "we know they (the alleged perpetrators) entered the house around 4:30a.m." K makes no comment in response to this and sits poker-faced. Then they discuss the time that the police arrived, and then the time of death. When K says the time of death is around 4:20-4:30 a.m., in response (at 1:24 in the video) the TV newsman says "in other words, at the time they (the alleged perpetrators) entered." K doesn't respond to this, but reiterates that the time of death is only based on the information that he's received.

 

[Dotta]

Money "stolen", money "paid for the lot" is the key factor in this case in my opinion. Money is the most frequent motive for crimes.