Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, tortured and murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #4 *ARREST*

[Estelle]

When C told EM she wanted to leave B, she should have referred her to a woman's shelter and made the enquiries herself at the time if C could not do it. I wonder if C was calling one of these the night before she was murdered. Did B lock C into the house so that she could not leave without his unlocking the door? Surely C could take Lydia for walks in her pram in the day so she could have walked there? Is there any evidence that B was physically violent with C? If so, that is when C should have left or called the police. The problem is that unless there has been physical violence, most Counsellors might not take C seriously and police do not attend unless there has been physical violence.

The “Shelter for Women Victims of Violence & their children” was inaugurated in June 2013. It operates on 24/7 basis, 365 days a year. Specialised staff (social worker, psychologist, pedagogue) provides safe hospitality, food, socio-psychological support and care for our ladies guests and their children. The shelter aims to support, empower and reintegrate women into community life and the labour market. Their stay is of a temporary and transitional character. Guests are all women regardless of the age, religion or nationality, who have been victims of any form of violence: physical, psychological, sexual or economic. Legal counseling and assistance are provided through the social services of the City of Athens, Women's Counseling Centers of the General Secretariat for Gender Equality or other public services, which facilitate access to employment, education, health and welfare services. The Shelter is funded by the programme "Operation of Local Government Structures and Services in favour of Women and for Combating Violence - Development and Operation of Shelters" NSF (2014-2020).

Shelter for Women Victims of Violence and their children of the City of Athens

Caritas Athens’ mission is the constant and selfless succor, solidarity, support and giving to a person, either Greek or foreign, who finds herself in material, psychological or spiritual need, irrespective of age, gender, language, nationality or religious belief, in an attempt to respond successfully to the improvement of her life. This multifaceted work requires a broad range of activities and the operation of various organized sections of activity which can respond to these needs, chiefly thanks to our heartfelt supporters and donors, to our participation in national and European programs and certainly, thanks to the active and tireless volunteers!

Our Mission - Caritas Athens

 

[Estelle]

Out of interest, if you were C, what would you have done?

 

[Winterbells]

The idiom 'Cherchez la femme' means that when a woman is killed by an unknown perpetrator, look at her husband or partner and see if there are any 'other' women in his life. This is because there are endless examples of (straight) men murdering their partners or wives when his infidelity is exposed. It can cause huge upset, fear, anger, jealousy, shame and violence. Of course the expression can be used in a sexist way (ditto 'femme fatale') but in this context, and since the police know who the perp is, it's probably relevant.
No-one here is confused about who is to blame for CC's death, but the police need a motive. It will help to secure justice.

 

[Winterbells]

Oh, but "Cherchez la femme" has a lot to do with "femme fatale". Both are sexist cliches indicating that a woman is at the root of the crime. No - at the root of the crime is a murderer! MOO

No, the cliche indicates that the male partner is at the root of the crime because he may have 'another' woman and this common complication could give him a motive for murdering his wife/partner. It's a guideline to suggest which direction the investigation should be going towards - ie. HIM.

 

[Dotta]

Out of interest, if you were C, what would you have done?

1. Record any abusive behaviour (photos of bruises, recordings of words) 2. Phone or write emails/traditional letters explaining everything to: trusted friends, parents, siblings. 3. Ask friends/siblings to take me away on a day when B is at work 4. Leave phone with spying app at home 5.Go to parents/siblings/friends or a shelter 6. Contact a good lawyer with the help of parents/siblings/friends 7.Contact police if having photos/recordings of abuse. 8. Never leave the temporary place alone. Aha, while plotting all these never argue with B, trying to be calm so he wouldn't suspect anything.

 

[Dotta]

The idiom 'Cherchez la femme' means that when a woman is killed by an unknown perpetrator, look at her husband or partner and see if there are any 'other' women in his life. This is because there are endless examples of (straight) men murdering their partners or wives when his infidelity is exposed. It can cause huge upset, fear, anger, jealousy, shame and violence. Of course the expression can be used in a sexist way (ditto 'femme fatale') but in this context, and since the police know who the perp is, it's probably relevant.
No-one here is confused about who is to blame for CC's death, but the police need a motive. It will help to secure justice.

Thank you When put it this way it sounds reasonable

 

[Winterbells]

Maybe B had a lover, or maybe not. But leave this woman alone!!! It wasnt she who put her hands around C's neck and strangled her! It was B - the murderer.

I don't understand why you can't see that IF there was another woman in B's life, she is useful to the prosecution. We're talking about MOTIVE here. B's motive. It's important for that to be established. Without a motive, it's harder to prove this was murder. Without a motive, he can plead 'loss of control'.

Nobody's suggesting 'another woman' killed CC or was the cause of her death. But if B was leading a double life which CC uncovered, then we can see that B could have a possible motive for 'getting rid' of her.

If, for example, CC had managed to remove hundreds of euros from their joint account and B had found out and killed her, then a different idiom could be applied to establish B's motive: 'follow the money'. Would this be deemed as 'victim blaming'? Would you be saying 'the money didn't strangle CC'?

 

[Winterbells]

Thank you When put it this way it sounds reasonable

Ok, phew.
I've been tearing my hair out here.
And just wrote another post on the matter, but it crossed with yours.

 

[Dotta]

I don't understand why you can't see that IF there was another woman in B's life, she is useful to the prosecution. We're talking about MOTIVE here. B's motive. It's important for that to be established. Without a motive, it's harder to prove this was murder. Without a motive, he can plead 'loss of control'.

Nobody's suggesting 'another woman' killed CC or was the cause of her death. But if B was leading a double life which CC uncovered, then we can see that B could have a possible motive for 'getting rid' of her.

If, for example, CC had managed to remove hundreds of euros from their joint account and B had found out and killed her, then a different idiom could be applied to establish B's motive: 'follow the money'. Would this be deemed as 'victim blaming'? Would you be saying 'the money didn't strangle CC'?

I have nothing against "Follow the money" haha

 

[tayaway]

When C told EM she wanted to leave B, she should have referred her to a woman's shelter and made the enquiries herself at the time if C could not do it. I wonder if C was calling one of these the night before she was murdered. Did B lock C into the house so that she could not leave without his unlocking the door? Surely C could take Lydia for walks in her pram in the day so she could have walked there? Is there any evidence that B was physically violent with C? If so, that is when C should have left or called the police. The problem is that unless there has been physical violence, most Counsellors might not take C seriously and police do not attend unless there has been physical violence.

SBM

We know that the last photo C took was of B with baby L on the couch. One theory is that she did that to show that she couldn't leave that night - he took the baby and held her until C fell asleep. The MSM general consensus is that she was scared to death of him and that's why she took the pic.

Depending on the country, verbal abuse that is harassing, intimidating, or threatening, is considered criminal and can be reported to police. There doesn't need to be physical violence to get police involved. In C's situation, B was violent with her, we have a carpenter as a witness to B bringing in a broken door that B admitted to breaking to get baby L out of the locked bedroom (confirmed in one of C's 'dairies', in which she says they got into a physical fight and she locked herself and the baby in the room?). The carpenter thought it strange a baby would be locked by itself in a room, and noted that B wouldn't let him paint over the repairs, because it was too expensive - IMO, B left the repaired bedroom door unpainted as a reminder of B's violence every single time C opened/closed the door. to further control her behavior, so she'd think twice about locking B out of the room again. Her 'diary' also refers to other instances of B's violence, referenced as 'XX' meaning Greek 'Xylo' or 'beating' in English, and yes, she also admits to hitting B during fights.

Out of interest, if you were C, what would you have done?

Coulda/woulda/shoulda - this approach is counterproductive for survivors and so the answer to that is Nadda. I can tell you what I did in my situation, in my early 20s, with a 9 or 10 month old baby (I don't remember what month it was). I left with baby M during the day (while the wife beater was at work) and went to the only local women's shelter in the city. My father told me that it was better for baby M to have a father that beat him than no father at all (his father beat him). I said no. My narc mother badgered me about how baby M would miss his father (her father and mother beat her). My dad's gf said that baby M's father was the most important person in his life, regardless of whether he contributed or not (I never ever went after him for child support - it wasn't worth a bullet to the back of my head). One of the wife beater's friends told me to find an upper apartment in a building with a locked entrance, so he couldn't get in and kill me. He did stalk me, but for some reason, didn't murder me. For years, I slept with a knife, baseball bat, and cordless phone beside me. The wb's mother went after me for unsupervised visitation with baby M, but because I showed the court that she was violent (she'd broken a man's leg in a bar fight by stomping on it when he was down and the local press covered it), she was only allowed supervised, so she gave up after roughly a year (again, it's a blur).

Last night I had a nightmare about the wb. I'm on medication in order to sleep, partly because of the chronic nightmares. I'm not a candidate for EMDR therapy, but I've done CBT.

Caroline didn't make it past the teen stage, dying several months before her 20th bday. I can't imagine what it was like to be married to a narc, a mother to a baby with preemie needs, isolated, monitored 24/7,... at such a young age.

 

[Kemug]

Oh Tayaway I am so sorry for all you have been through. It is a testament to your courage that you are still here, and I truly hope that nowadays you are surrounded by the love you deserve.

 

[Estelle]

@tayaway What courage you had to be able to leave your partner with a baby.

In 2011, I had a house fire which burnt two bedrooms of my five bedroom house. I was lucky to escape. My sister asked her husband to help me to clean it up in preparation for the renovations so I gave him the house keys and $10,000 as I was traumatised and had been in hospital. However, the next day he demanded that I remove everything from my house and store it or he would destroy everything a few days later. I told him that was not necessary as only two bedrooms needed renovation. He repeated what he was going to do and said there was no negotiation. I went to the doctor and he gave me antidepressants. I was terrified of him and soon learnt that he had assumed that he was going to be the builder. I went to live with my mother. He came with a garbage truck and got these guys to remove everything on my front verandah - bbq, table chairs, pot plants ans then even took up the wooden verandah. I went to the police when they were doing this and asked them to come down and stop them but they refused as they said he was family. I could not even make a police report.

I told my mother and brother to phone him to stop him but they refused. I was terrified of him and thought he was mentally ill. My mother told me not to tell my sister as she would divorce him and he would commit suicide. In the following three months, he abused me emotionally, financially, verbally and physically. He renovated the whole house instead of just the two bedrooms and kept asking me for money in advance which I had to borrow. I felt I was stuck with him once I gave him the first $40,000 in advance before I realised what his agenda was. The total cost was $120,000 when it should have only cost about $50,000. At the end, I found out that he did not even have a current building licence

Just before Christmas that year, my sister asked me to thank him but I refused so she cut me out of the family and we are still estranged. In 2014, he committed suicide when I was in Alaska on a cruise. My brother told me later that her family blamed me for his death.

I reported him to police three times - the last time he assaulted me. I made a report and later they told me they had phoned him about it but he denied everything and that was it. Family members did not approve of my report a family member to police.

That is why I have this attitude that Police are not interested in reports of any type of abuse unless you can show them the evidence which has to be physical otherwise the perpetrator will deny it. It is the same with rape. The rapist claims it was consensual even if you have been given a rape drug. But how do you prove it?

Types of abuse in domestic and family violence

This website details all the types of abuse one can report. In C's case, it mainly appears to be:

Social abuse

• isolation from family and friends such as ongoing rudeness to family and friends to alienate them, or limiting contact with family and friends
• instigating and controlling the move to a location where the victim has no established social circle or work opportunities
• restricting use of the car or telephone
• forbidding or physically preventing the victim from going out and meeting people

Although the website above claims it is a crime, in practice, how would police have handled this?

 

[Dotta]

@tayaway What courage you had to be able to leave your partner with a baby.

In 2011, I had a house fire which burnt two bedrooms of my five bedroom house. I was lucky to escape. My sister asked her husband to help me to clean it up in preparation for the renovations so I gave him the house keys and $10,000 as I was traumatised and had been in hospital. However, the next day he demanded that I remove everything from my house and store it or he would destroy everything a few days later. I told him that was not necessary as only two bedrooms needed renovation. He repeated what he was going to do and said there was no negotiation. I went to the doctor and he gave me antidepressants. I was terrified of him and soon learnt that he had assumed that he was going to be the builder. I went to live with my mother. He came with a garbage truck and got these guys to remove everything on my front verandah - bbq, table chairs, pot plants ans then even took up the wooden verandah. I went to the police when they were doing this and asked them to come down and stop them but they refused as they said he was family. I could not even make a police report.

I told my mother and brother to phone him to stop him but they refused. I was terrified of him and thought he was mentally ill. My mother told me not to tell my sister as she would divorce him and he would commit suicide. In the following three months, he abused me emotionally, financially, verbally and physically. He renovated the whole house instead of just the two bedrooms and kept asking me for money in advance which I had to borrow. I felt I was stuck with him once I gave him the first $40,000 in advance before I realised what his agenda was. The total cost was $120,000 when it should have only cost about $50,000. At the end, I found out that he did not even have a current building licence

Just before Christmas that year, my sister asked me to thank him but I refused so she cut me out of the family and we are still estranged. In 2014, he committed suicide when I was in Alaska on a cruise. My brother told me later that her family blamed me for his death.

I reported him to police three times - the last time he assaulted me. I made a report and later they told me they had phoned him about it but he denied everything and that was it. Family members did not approve of my report a family member to police.

That is why I have this attitude that Police are not interested in reports of any type of abuse unless you can show them the evidence which has to be physical otherwise the perpetrator willw deny it. It is the same with rape. The rapist claims it was consensual even if you have been given a rape drug. But how do you prove it?

Types of abuse in domestic and family violence

This website details all the types of abuse one can report. In C's case, it mainly appears to be:

Social abuse

• isolation from family and friends such as ongoing rudeness to family and friends to alienate them, or limiting contact with family and friends
• instigating and controlling the move to a location where the victim has no established social circle or work opportunities
• restricting use of the car or telephone
• forbidding or physically preventing the victim from going out and meeting people

Although the website above claims it is a crime, in practice, how would police have handled this?

While reading about your house renovation 2 sayings came to my mind: 1. Family pictures are safer than family business, 2.Treatment proved worse than a sickness. But please tell me that the house looked like new after all these problems!

 

[tayaway]

@tayaway What courage you had to be able to leave your partner with a baby.

In 2011, I had a house fire which burnt two bedrooms of my five bedroom house. I was lucky to escape. My sister asked her husband to help me to clean it up in preparation for the renovations so I gave him the house keys and $10,000 as I was traumatised and had been in hospital. However, the next day he demanded that I remove everything from my house and store it or he would destroy everything a few days later. I told him that was not necessary as only two bedrooms needed renovation. He repeated what he was going to do and said there was no negotiation. I went to the doctor and he gave me antidepressants. I was terrified of him and soon learnt that he had assumed that he was going to be the builder. I went to live with my mother. He came with a garbage truck and got these guys to remove everything on my front verandah - bbq, table chairs, pot plants ans then even took up the wooden verandah. I went to the police when they were doing this and asked them to come down and stop them but they refused as they said he was family. I could not even make a police report.

I told my mother and brother to phone him to stop him but they refused. I was terrified of him and thought he was mentally ill. My mother told me not to tell my sister as she would divorce him and he would commit suicide. In the following three months, he abused me emotionally, financially, verbally and physically. He renovated the whole house instead of just the two bedrooms and kept asking me for money in advance which I had to borrow. I felt I was stuck with him once I gave him the first $40,000 in advance before I realised what his agenda was. The total cost was $120,000 when it should have only cost about $50,000. At the end, I found out that he did not even have a current building licence

Just before Christmas that year, my sister asked me to thank him but I refused so she cut me out of the family and we are still estranged. In 2014, he committed suicide when I was in Alaska on a cruise. My brother told me later that her family blamed me for his death.

I reported him to police three times - the last time he assaulted me. I made a report and later they told me they had phoned him about it but he denied everything and that was it. Family members did not approve of my report a family member to police.

That is why I have this attitude that Police are not interested in reports of any type of abuse unless you can show them the evidence which has to be physical otherwise the perpetrator will deny it. It is the same with rape. The rapist claims it was consensual even if you have been given a rape drug. But how do you prove it?

Types of abuse in domestic and family violence

This website details all the types of abuse one can report. In C's case, it mainly appears to be:

Social abuse

• isolation from family and friends such as ongoing rudeness to family and friends to alienate them, or limiting contact with family and friends
• instigating and controlling the move to a location where the victim has no established social circle or work opportunities
• restricting use of the car or telephone
• forbidding or physically preventing the victim from going out and meeting people

Although the website above claims it is a crime, in practice, how would police have handled this?

Sorry to hear you went through that nightmare. What an injustice. I can understand your cynicism.

That website is for New South Wales. So how does Greek law differ from Aus? Well, since I don't speak Greek, I can't find Eng translations of law 3500/2006 or law 4531/2018. From this resource hub, we get Greece's legal definition of DV:

3.1 Domestic violence
This includes the following:

1. the commission of a criminal offense, to the detriment of a family member, in accordance with Articles 6, 7, 8 and 9 of Law 3500/2006 and Articles 299 and 311 of the Penal Code [What does this even mean?]
   
   
2. all acts of physical, sexual, psychological or economic violence that occurs within the family or domestic unit or between former or current spouses or partners, whether or not the perpetrator shares or has shared the same residence with the victim[2]

I assume that the abuses you've listed fall under physical, psychological, and economic violence. Given that we've previously discussed the fact that Greece has the worst gender equality of all EU countries (Turkey doesn't technically count) in this thread, let's argue that your attitude towards police is probably right on the mark here. Did C feel or believe she could turn to anyone (aside from confiding in EM) in the months leading up to her murder? Did she even know what her legal rights were under Greek law? What about her options or the process?

 

[Estelle]

In the NSW link I posted above, I was surprised to see each type of abuse defined as I had never seen that before. It is usually listed in general terms, as your Greek link does, as physical, sexual, psychological and economic abuse. I have also never seen "social abuse" mentioned before which is the main one we know that C suffered so far which is what a controlling partner subjects his partner to. But C probably suffered from all types of abuse except sexual.

But when it comes to reporting it to police, yes, you can do that, but they are usually only interested if it will lead to a conviction in the court of law - hence the need to have evidence such as a hospital report of the physical abuse. Otherwise, how do you prove these abuses when the perpetrator claims innocence unless you are able to record conversations or it appears in writing. Otherwise, it is your word against the perpetrator.

As B had isolated C in every way he could, she had no support except that of EM because C probably felt shame that her husband treated her as he did but he also monitored everything she did so she had no privacy. Even the so-called reason they sought help was probably incorrect being "postpartum depression" instead of "spousal abuse". I guess it was B who employed EM in the first place. I am still not sure if C was actually locked up in their maisonette 24/7 every day and could not get out. If she could have got out, she could have, at least, told her neighbours and sought help from them.

I don't think many females know their legal rights until they have suffered the abuse. The only type of abuse that is recognised by most is physical abuse. Many people blame the victim. More education in high schools and in the media is needed concerning abuse. I have suffered many abuses in my life to the extent that I was diagnosed with complex post traumatic stress disorder. So I warned my children about what abuse is, told them not to tolerate it and escape. Due to my experiences, I even became a Counsellor in my later years in order to help victims because partner abuse and workplace bullying are rampant in most countries in the world. All police can do with partner abuse is to give the perpetrator an AVO but the perpetrator does not always abide by this.

As I've said before, C's only option was to escape. But warning the perpetrator that you are going to do so is a red flag for them.

 

[Estelle]

Another idea is that C should/could have gone to her doctor and reported B's treatment of her. Surely B would have asked his taxi driver to take her to her doctor. There would then be a report and she would have been given advice. C would have had to go to the doctor who delivered her baby or one to check on her baby's health. He would have been able to give her advice on her "postpartum depression" (which I think was really about the effects of B's abuse).

 

[Dotta]

https://www.sigmalive.com/news/gree...iegrapse-***-itan-i-karolain-ti-moiraia-imera Sth new/Neighbour is talking

 

[Marg from Oz]

Won't work, what are the three missing letters?

 

[Dotta]

Sorry I seem not to be able to post a link from twitter today from my phone

 

[tayaway]

https://www.sigmalive.com/news/gree...iegrapse-***-itan-i-karolain-ti-moiraia-imera Sth new/Neighbour is talking

Won't work, what are the three missing letters?

Got it, here's the link! sigmalive July 26

In the new testimony given to the investigator a few days ago, the couple's neighbor described how the girl was on the day of the crime. From the image she gave, she did not seem to have quarreled with her husband, which is contrary to the allegations of the perpetrator.

She talked to Caroline on viber for more than an hour, mostly about animals. The girl seemed to be in the mood for a chat.

...She then said that the conversation was stopped on her own initiative. At 11pm and for the next half hour he watched Caroline from the kitchen window in her own kitchen.

Στη νέα κατάθεση που έδωσε στον ανακριτή πριν από λίγες ημέρες η γειτόνισσα του ζευγαριού, περιέγραψε πώς ήταν το κορίτσι την ημέρα του εγκλήματος. Από την εικόνα που έδινε, δε φαινόταν να είχε καυγαδίσει με τον άντρα της, γεγονός αντίθετο στους ισχυρισμούς του δράστη.

Η ίδια συνομίλησε με την Καρολάιν στο viber για περισσότερο από μία ώρα, κυρίως για ζώα. Το κορίτσι φαινόταν να είχε διάθεση για κουβέντα.

...Στη συνέχεια, είπε ότι σταμάτησε η συνομιλία με δική της πρωτοβουλία. Στις 11 το βράδυ και για την επόμενη μισή ώρα έβλεπε την Καρολάιν από το παράθυρο της κουζίνας να βρίσκεται στη δική της κουζίνα.

ETA: In order for the link to work, I had to shorten it to the root, which automatically takes you to the article. The 3 letters that are automatically blocked on websleuths are . (hooboy, I'm laughing too much at my own silly joke!)