Guatemala - Nancy Ng, 29, from Monterey Park CA, missing during Yoga Retreat, 19 Oct 2023

[slowpoke]

I have not been on such a retreat, but even if people are arriving separately for a bit of relaxation and quiet (?)- Does it still make sense that someone from your cohort goes missing and you just leave for your home country and think, "well, I hope they find that lady?"

Maybe that's the kind of world we live in these days? People wrapped up in posting their own selfies and stories, but not really connecting with other humans in person when at these things?

Moo. No idea. Is there a sense of temporary community at these things?

Different situation, but it reminded me of when I was on a European river cruise ship trip. One of the guests had gotten ill with Covid mid-trip. The entire ship‘s guests were called together and the announcement made in order to alert us all and how they were handling it, and answering concerns, and giving options. I appreciated the way it was handled.

What I would have expected at this yoga retreat is the retreat organizer to have gotten the retreaters together and made the announcement of Nancy going missing, perhaps with an official there (LE) who can begin taking the statements from the group. Knowing this was at the end of the retreat would mean all the more there was urgency in doing this as quickly as possible.

I wouldn’t expect anyone to stay behind in Guatemala, having to change their flight plans (nor am I assuming this is what you meant). But if I knew I was scheduled to leave the next day, I’d make sure the authorities knew so I could be interviewed to tell all I knew before leaving. It just feels like the right thing.

MOO

 

[AnyNameIWish]

@slowpoke YES! Thank you. You're thinking ahead of me and I appreciate this. I guess the lack of communication by the resort destination is what's ultimately most troubling. I don't expect people to stay extra day during their vacation to help look, but I would hope the other vacationers would be in the loop.

"She went swimming and then drowned" seems a quick and tidy explanation. Had she done this kayaking thing here at Lake A before? Were there any rules given to the kayakers before they left?

I understand the idea of feeling lot/invincible when you're in that little slice of paradise, did the resort workers give the kayakers necessary info about the lake ? Depth, water temp, if locals swim there (everyone says no,) water quality/safety?

 

[threesevenninefour]

With the new information that’s come out, it definitely feels like an accidental drowning with possible (unintentional?) negligence on the part of the retreat runners/hotel management. Her kayaking companion immediately returned back to the group to report her missing and “searches” by hotel staff began being conducted almost right away, it just wasn’t reported to the proper authorities in a timely manner like it should have been. I‘ve never been to Guatemala so I don’t know the cultural differences there but I have a lot of family that live in South America and I’ve noticed that they often treat police quite differently than we do here in the U.S.— as more of a “last resort” call instead of the first thing to do.

I feel awful for Nancy and her family/loved ones. I really hope they get answers soon.

 

[10ofRods]

@slowpoke YES! Thank you. You're thinking ahead of me and I appreciate this. I guess the lack of communication by the resort destination is what's ultimately most troubling. I don't expect people to stay extra day during their vacation to help look, but I would hope the other vacationers would be in the loop.

"She went swimming and then drowned" seems a quick and tidy explanation. Had she done this kayaking thing here at Lake A before? Were there any rules given to the kayakers before they left?

I understand the idea of feeling lot/invincible when you're in that little slice of paradise, did the resort workers give the kayakers necessary info about the lake ? Depth, water temp, if locals swim there (everyone says no,) water quality/safety?

I'd say that there is ample evidence from the kayak concessions operating on Lake Atitlan that they did the opposite (with glorious pictures of bikini clad women sans any PFL diving into Lake Atitlán from kayaks - using kayaks as dive platforms) when, of course, diving platforms are anchored and can't float away from the diving position - that's why they are used and not kayaks.

I'd love to know if the kayak concession was owned by the hotel and whether there was anything other than a "yoga add-on" at the hotel (it doesn't sound to me as if the "retreat" persons were living together in communal circumstances - they probably only did yoga classes in the morning together, I would love to know if they even ate meals together.

They may not have known each other very well at all - it was a yoga vacation, I'm guessing. I would bet a lot of donuts that no one warned the guests about water quality and that there was very little instruction given with the kayak rental. I've rented kayaks on Big Island several times - totally on our own at learning to use them (but I had taken classes back here in SoCal - we still had an immediate mishap, and we curtailed our ambitions quite a bit).

I think resorts all around the world rent out kayaks (and surfboards/paddleboards) with no warnings or instructions.

IMO.

 

[charminglane]

We also don't know if the yoga retreat house owned their own kayaks for their guests.
Help yourself.
Maybe if max capacity was the 10 guests on this retreat, they had a few of their own for use.
I've stayed in places US and abroad that provided them.

 

[10ofRods]

We also don't know if the yoga retreat house owned their own kayaks for their guests.
Help yourself.
Maybe if max capacity was the 10 guests on this retreat, they had a few of their own for use.
I've stayed in places US and abroad that provided them.

But that makes me wonder about the word "hotel." 10 people in a Yoga retreat house are not in a hotel, IMO. The MSM makes it sound like the one person went immediately to "hotel personnel." Maybe that's how they want to style themselves.

I've definitely stayed in places that had user-operated and available kayaks and canoes. More often, there's been a fee of some kind, but sometimes, they're just available for free use (huge liability here in the US - not so much in Guatemala, I'm thinking).

 

[mickey2942]

Personally, I wouldn't want any sort of involvement with LEO in a foreign country, if I had nothing to do with it, I would say that, and want to leave as soon as possible. And I definitely wouldn't insert myself in any sort of media here in the US.

 

[Cedars]

Different situation, but it reminded me of when I was on a European river cruise ship trip. One of the guests had gotten ill with Covid mid-trip. The entire ship‘s guests were called together and the announcement made in order to alert us all and how they were handling it, and answering concerns, and giving options. I appreciated the way it was handled.

What I would have expected at this yoga retreat is the retreat organizer to have gotten the retreaters together and made the announcement of Nancy going missing, perhaps with an official there (LE) who can begin taking the statements from the group. Knowing this was at the end of the retreat would mean all the more there was urgency in doing this as quickly as possible.

I wouldn’t expect anyone to stay behind in Guatemala, having to change their flight plans (nor am I assuming this is what you meant). But if I knew I was scheduled to leave the next day, I’d make sure the authorities knew so I could be interviewed to tell all I knew before leaving. It just feels like the right thing.

MOO

The thing is, Guatemala is what used to be called a third world country, and Lake Atitlan is very isolated from the capital city where the government is based.

These 'resorts' are not like official cruise companies or first world hotels. They are more like a few drop-outs from Western society have bought land and built some structures, and got a bunch of boats to rent out. I really would not expect any administrative staff, guest relations staff, health and safety staff, resort inspections, etc, etc.

ETA, no doubt there are waivers associated with registering for the retreat as well as using any boats, to hold the organizers harmless, since people can hurt themselves doing yoga, etc.

JMO

 

[tarabull]

Monterey Park Resident, Nancy Ng, Is Missing

Nancy Ng, a U.S. citizen and a resident of Monterey Park, went missing on Lake Atitlán in Guatemala on Thursday, October 19, 2023. By News Desk Nancy is 29 ye

www.coloradoboulevard.net

Snipped...
... This has led to an extensive search of Lake Atitlán, a volcanic lake approximately 130km (80 miles) square and reaches a depth of 350 meters. Currently, search teams are taking great personal risks due to the climate and altitude, but without knowing the full background to her disappearance – we are unfortunately only able to scratch the surface of such a large area of water and remote locations.”

 

[slowpoke]

I don’t understand Spanish, but if anyone else does, this is a video I think of a tv broadcast about the attempts by the local authorities or rescuers.
ChapinTV video link

I put into Translate what it says on her poster at the opening of the video where it says
“A orillas del lago camino hacia el Caserio Jaibalito, Santa Cruz La Laguna, Sololá, República de Guatemala”
It translated to:
“On the shores of the lake on the way to Caserio Jaibalito, Santa Cruz La Laguna, Sololá, Republic of Guatemala”

Does that narrow down her location?

 

[charminglane]

Mods, would you please change the city that Nancy is missing from in the title to Monterey Park?

Represent the 626!

 

[tarabull]

Snipped...
...Prosecutors told "Good Morning America" that Nancy Ng, 29, was traveling with a U.S.-based tour group when she drowned on a kayaking excursion Oct. 19 in Lake Atitlán.

Fate of California woman who vanished on yoga retreat revealed, family challenges claim

Guatemalan officials say Nancy Ng, who traveled to the country for a yoga retreat, drowned during a kayak trip.

www.ktvu.com

 

[Cedars]

“On the shores of the lake on the way to Caserio Jaibalito, Santa Cruz La Laguna, Sololá, Republic of Guatemala”

Does that narrow down her location?

Santa Cruz was mentioned earlier, it is a small village on the northwest of the lake. It can only be reached by boat, people rely on a regular boat shuttle service from Panajachel.

"The village has no roads, telephone system, or commercial center... Electricity is intermittent and expensive, and is therefore not installed in many households."

We don't whether that's where the retreat was based, perhaps it was at another village on the lake and they only rented boats at Santa Cruz, or even kayaked in that direction.

However, I noticed in the shoreline video, she was on one of those sit upon kayaks, I wonder how far those would normally be taken out.

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

Is no one willing to name this "US-based tour group"?

 

[10ofRods]

I don’t understand Spanish, but if anyone else does, this is a video I think of a tv broadcast about the attempts by the local authorities or rescuers.
ChapinTV video link

I put into Translate what it says on her poster at the opening of the video where it says
“A orillas del lago camino hacia el Caserio Jaibalito, Santa Cruz La Laguna, Sololá, República de Guatemala”
It translated to:
“On the shores of the lake on the way to Caserio Jaibalito, Santa Cruz La Laguna, Sololá, Republic of Guatemala”

Does that narrow down her location?

I think it does, but sure does look as if her retreat place was some miles away from the lake - so I am quite doubtful that the retreat owners also owned kayaks.

It is a far more believable place for a yoga retreat, though - the kind where yes, 10 people are kind of isolated at the retreat and interact.

However, when young people go to retreats like that, they get antsy for other experiences (lakes, kayaks, etc). IME. If that's where she was (there are different spellings of the place, btw), then it was an excursion down to the lake and I would assume all 10 people went on that excursion.

I am also thinking (speculation ahead): that on the last day of an energizing, calming, possibly euphoric yoga experience - the "team" was glad to just have an ordinary tourist experience, in the glorious sun of Guatemala, on that beautiful lake. I am also assuming that each of the returning members told exactly what they knew - to the retreat runners.

Responsbility goes (in my mind) to the retreat runners - and to the kayak concessionaire. I totally understand if others disagree with me.

IMO.

 

[acutename]

Santa Cruz was mentioned earlier, it is a small village on the northwest of the lake. It can only be reached by boat, people rely on a regular boat shuttle service from Panajachel.

"The village has no roads, telephone system, or commercial center... Electricity is intermittent and expensive, and is therefore not installed in many households."

We don't whether that's where the retreat was based, perhaps it was at another village on the lake and they only rented boats at Santa Cruz, or even kayaked in that direction.

However, I noticed in the shoreline video, she was on one of those sit upon kayaks, I wonder how far those would normally be taken out.

JMO

I have a sit upon.... they do not sink and they usually do not turn over because they are so flat.... but they are not fast because they are not streamlined. I have fallen off mine messing around and got back on it, but there is always a danger, I guess, that a kayak just gets away from you.

 

[Cedars]

Responsbility goes (in my mind) to the retreat runners - and to the kayak concessionaire. I totally understand if others disagree with me.

IMO.

Responsibilty for what, exactly?

 

[Cedars]

I have a sit upon.... they do not sink and they usually do not turn over because they are so flat.... but they are not fast because they are not streamlined. I have fallen off mine messing around and got back on it, but there is always a danger, I guess, that a kayak just gets away from you.

I was thinking more about, would one normally take one far from shore, 2 kms IIRC.

If we are to accept the latest government statement, she jumped off and did not resurface, so it would appear it wasn't about getting back on the float.

JMO

 

[acutename]

water is 70F all the time but swimming is best between November and May.... algal blooms:

Rules For Swimming In Lake Atitlan: How To Not Get Sick And The Best Spots For Safe Swimming & Cliff Jumping - Kayak Guatemala

In this comprehensive guide, we provide 5 important rules for swimming in Lake Atitlan, plus we'll tell you the best and safest spots around the lake for swimming and cliff jumping.

kayakguatemala.com

site offers kayaks, tours, cliff jumping spots.... one of the swimming spots they list is near the town she was in I think... they say that you might want to wear a life jacket... no one is talking about life jackets...

has NN's family said that she was an experienced or strong swimmer? It is such a big deep lake that it makes me worry about currents or who-knows-what...wonder if there was a guide.


University of Sea Kayaking
https://www.useakayak.org › references › hypothermia_t...

Hypothermia Table

Water Temperature in Degrees F (Degrees C)	Loss of Dexterity (with no protective clothing)	Expected Time of Survival
50 to 60 (10 to 15.5)	10 to 15 min.	1 to 6 hrs.
60 to 70 (15.5 to 21)	30 to 40 min.	2 to 40 hrs.
70 to 80 (21 to 26.5)	1 to 2 hrs.	3 hrs. to indefinite
Over 80 (Over 26.5)	2 to 12 hrs.	Indefinite

 

[10ofRods]

I was thinking more about, would one normally take one far from shore, 2 kms IIRC.

If we are to accept the latest government statement, she jumped off and did not resurface, so it would appear it wasn't about getting back on the float.

JMO

Where are you finding that? Which latest government statement?

I read that the government says "She went swimming and drowned." One can resurface many times before drowning. Is the government saying that the one witness says this?

To me, it's an "of course it was an issue of not getting back on the kayak." She jumped off of it, intending to swim. She swam. But she could not get back on it and drowned. ALL people swimming in the middle of lakes know they have to get back to shore - or back on whatever craft brought them. Eventually, everyone drowns in cold water if they can't make shore or back to the kayak.

Two hours would not be unusual for such a drowning. I posted a link about a woman who drowned in a California lake (a colder lake, though - so person only lasted 30 minutes or so, 54F approximate).

At any rate, no one can swim indefinitely. And, as I have proposed, diving into a lake means one must make a vertical ascent back to the surface - usually yards away from the entry point, so yards away from a moving kayak.

It's not a good scenario. Esp if the person isn't wearing either a life jacket or PFD.

If people are wanting criticize the one other kayaker who witnessed this event, I understand that - but I'm not sure at all what they could have done.

IMO.