Gun Control Debate #1

[southernmimi]

To be blunt and graphic,kids are getting their heads blown off and some people still won't give an inch.
They can have all the guns in the world but since it's their right to have an AR-15 by god they will have it.
I wonder if the rights of others to have safety will ever matter.

It's not just about guns overall. Drunk or impaired drivers kill all day every day eventhough others on the road have a right to safety.

 

[Inthedetails]

It's not just about guns overall. Drunk or impaired drivers kill all day every day eventhough others on the road have a right to safety.

It used to be worse. But Mothers Against Drunk Driving worked hard to change public opinion about drunk driving. It's normal and acceptable now to have a designated driver or to stop someone from driving drunk. It wasn't always like that.

It's socially unacceptable to drink and drive - as well as being illegal.

Public opinion changed about drinking and driving. I am hopeful it can be changed about guns/regulations as well. (And to repeat once again, I'm actually not anti-gun, though I know some people here are. It's not either/or.)

jmo

 

[kimlynn]

It's not just about guns overall. Drunk or impaired drivers kill all day every day eventhough others on the road have a right to safety.

True we can't prevent every death but we can try to limit dangers. Regarding drunk drivers we have LE conducting random roadside tests and we have courts going after drunk drivers once they are caught.

 

[Blef]

Blef,

Thanks for answering my questions. From reading between the lines your solution seems to be ban and confiscate all semi-automatic firearms in the United States, correct? At least we know where you stand. This is why there will be no changes to our current gun laws.

I'm not American, and so I see it from an outsiders viewpoint. I come from a country where there is no way that a member of the public would just be allowed to own a semi-automatic weapon and our last mass shooting was in 1996.

My question was actually WHY does someone in suburban America NEED a semi-automatic/assault weapon? And why don't these people who decide they do need one not store them so that their teenaged son can't get a hold of it, and the ammo to shoot up a school? Control is the issue and no-one in power in the USA dares to try and take your guns away, because hey 2nd amendment trumps the right to send your kids to school without worrying that some disaffected teenager is going to commit a massacre.

 

[Blef]

It's not just about guns overall. Drunk or impaired drivers kill all day every day eventhough others on the road have a right to safety.

Obtuse argument. Cars are not primarily designed to kill or maim. That is the only reason guns are made.

 

[Jinkasaurus]

A 2016 research article by Dr. Peter Langman that examined where the school shooters obtained their weapons from 1991 to 2015.

" It is noteworthy that the juvenile shooters almost never obtained their weapons “on the street.” In the vast majority of cases, young shooters took guns that belonged to their parents and other relatives. Out of all the cases in which the preptrators took family members’ firearms, it appears that all of these guns were owned legally except those used by Evan Ramsey and Jaylen Fryberg (see notes for details). The guns owned by family members were not purchased with the intent of committing mass violence, but were accessible to adolescent (and even pre-adolescent) perpetrators. This highlights the importance of firearm security within the home."

https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/origins_of_firearms_1.1.pdf

 

[Blef]

A 2016 research article that examined where the school shooters obtained their weapons from 1991 to 2015.

" It is noteworthy that the juvenile shooters almost never obtained their weapons “on the street.” In the vast majority of cases, young shooters took guns that belonged to their parents and other relatives. Out of all the cases in which the preptrators took family members’ firearms, it appears that all of these guns were owned legally except those used by Evan Ramsey and Jaylen Fryberg (see notes for details). The guns owned by family members were not purchased with the intent of committing mass violence, but were accessible to adolescent (and even pre-adolescent) perpetrators. This highlights the importance of firearm security within the home."

https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/origins_of_firearms_1.1.pdf

Thanks eleventy billion times for this

 

[Jinkasaurus]

Thanks eleventy billion times for this

I highly recommend that folks go to his site and start reading his articles. There is an amazing amount of information there.

 

[jillycat]

To be blunt and graphic,kids are getting their heads blown off and some people still won't give an inch.
They can have all the guns in the world but since it's their right to have an AR-15 by god they will have it.
I wonder if the rights of others to have safety will ever matter.

Not to a social predator.

 

[Inthedetails]

I highly recommend that folks go to his site and start reading his articles. There is an amazing amount of information there.

Will do!

 

[kimlynn]

Not to a social predator.

By social predator do you mean the person killing others with weapons? If so shouldn't we try to make weapons less available to them?

 

[jillycat]

By social predator do you mean the person killing others with weapons? If so shouldn't we try to make weapons less available to them?

I mean, in this case, a hunter of other humans. This type of person does not care about law or having his behavior regulated.

 

[Inthedetails]

I mean, in this case, a hunter of other humans. This type of person does not care about law or having his behavior regulated.

As posted above, the school shooters get their weapons not on the street but either purchase them legally themselves or take their parents' legally-purchased guns. They did follow the law in the way they obtained their weapons...that they then used to kill.

An article posted above was by a man who said he would've been a school shooter himself, but he didn't have guns.

School shooters aren't buying guns illegally. In terms of that part of their crime, they are following the current laws.

If the laws were different, perhaps school shooters wouldn't become school shooters.

jmo

 

[kimlynn]

I'll just say this (have to run in a bit) The NRA really isn't concerned about the rights of those who have guns.
For them it is all about profit from sales. People have been had.IMO
And I get that it seems some are being asked to give up their rights,but I would like to think if I were asked to give up something for the greater good that I would be willing to do so
Later all.

 

[kimlynn]

I mean, in this case, a hunter of other humans. This type of person does not care about law or having his behavior regulated.

Why make it easier for him or her by allowing them to have a weapon that can kill so many in a short space of time.
Can't stop all killing but hopefully we could prevent some of it. IMO

 

[bobcat]

My question was actually WHY does someone in suburban America NEED a semi-automatic/assault weapon? And why don't these people who decide they do need one not store them so that their teenaged son can't get a hold of it, and the ammo to shoot up a school? Control is the issue and no-one in power in the USA dares to try and take your guns away, because hey 2nd amendment trumps the right to send your kids to school without worrying that some disaffected teenager is going to commit a massacre.

The same reason a person in rural America would need one- self defense, hunting, target shooting. Although I’m not sure I can give a complete answer as I do not know what an “assault rifle” is.

 

[Blef]

The same reason a person in rural America would need one- self defense, hunting, target shooting. Although I’m not sure I can give a complete answer as I do not know what an “assault rifle” is.

A military rifle. Not a hunting rifle. How is an assault rifle going to be used as self defense though? How many people are actually shot because of home invasion? Compared to people just going and shooting up a school I can't imagine it is many.

 

[rosemadderlake]

The thing is, it is about us, at least partially. We’re the ones being asked to make sacrifices that people who don’t own guns, and have no use for them, are not. It’s good to have discussions, and talking to gun owners is a good start: The mere fact that a person has gone through the process of buying a gun, and knows what was involved, usually puts their general knowledge on the subject above your average non-gun owner. But the most important thing is that the discussion not turn into a lecture, which all too often is what happens (the one on this thread has been good and respectful, for the most part).

I’m one of those people most of you would characterize as “unyielding” on the subject. It’s not because I don’t care about people dying. My heart sinks whenever I hear about one of these events, but I usually get about 30 seconds to feel sad before some demagoguing politician blasts out a tweet basically accusing people like me of being complicit in it.

I’ve been informally following and learning about gun policy for the better part of twenty years. I’m pretty well acquainted with the realities of guns in America. For the record, there are about 300 million civilian owned firearms in the US, with millions more added every year, and these weapons have a “shelf life” of decades or longer.

So when well-meaning people make gun control proposals, and talk about things like eliminating private sales, banning magazines over a certain size, or increasing background check times, I immediately know that these modest changes are going to do next to nothing to stop mass shootings (or gun homicide in general, the vast majority of which are not mass shootings).

OK, maybe they would help from a statistical perspective. Maybe we’ll move from 12 horrific shootings a year with 10 fatalities each (making up those numbers) to 10 with 8 (I strongly doubt any of the changes proposed would be even that effective). But they won’t stop, just due to the sheer number of guns out there. And what will happen then? Will everyone who pushed for those changes in the law, and their elected officials, be content to stop there? When the next “Breaking News” headline hits, with pictures of screaming, sobbing children and family members all over the internet, will what’s already passed seem like enough? I’m guessing no- once they’ve enacted the currently politically-palatable ideas, they’ll move the window and ask for more.

The truth is, without drastic, wholesale bans on most types of firearms, with mandatory confiscation combined with draconian enforcement, you’re never going to see an end to these types of shootings (and you’d probably still occasionally see them even then, since the existing supply is so vast). I personally don’t want that, and don’t believe the Constitution allows that.

I know most people here will say “No, that’s a scare tactic, that’s not where it’s going” (and to those who admitted otherwise, thanks for your honesty), I know that it’s not the stated goal at this point. But thirty years down the line, with gun ownership under ever increasing restrictions, with the total number of guns owners decreasing to a smaller and smaller percentage, can you vouch for that generation of elected officials, and the voters who are putting them in office?

By all means, let’s increase what goes into these background checks; I’m always totally astounded when the histories of these shooters come out, and the utter craziness of their behaviors is revealed, that none of it ever made it into an official record. Let’s look at school security and see what can be done there, because if you’re not controlling access, you’re not keeping guns out. But restricting what responsible, adult American citizens can buy? I say no to that, and I don’t want to take a single step down that road, because I’m pretty sure I know where it ends.

I totally appreciate your viewpoint, and the specifics!

Background check wait times. What is reasonable?
Close loopholes on Internet & gun show purchases?
Registry for semiauto large magazine guns?
Raise the age to 21?

These are some measures I wondered about up thread.

BBM: I believe those who do not own guns are making an enormous sacrifice in lobbying for common sense reforms.

Personally, I knew we were potentially doomed when we let the assault weapon ban expire in 2004.

If we allow this trajectory of senseless massacre to continue without trying to come to grips with it I feel we'll be sacrificing much more than our current cultural issues or politics of same. Because, the 2nd amendment states a well regulated militia, I wonder how the founders would interpret it today. Were weapons of war included in a citizen's right to bear arms?

I also believe that culturally, no matter the means of death and destruction that terrorism has become vogue in the minds of mass killers. Fame and infamy are in vogue. This is an element of all high profile killers but when the means to maximize the numbers becomes so easy and affordible to purchase and keeps falling into the wrong hands, do we turn our backs on that over and over again?

Is repeated mass carnage in the name of the 2nd amendment the sacrifice? I am reminded of how this country deals with crisis, after Reagan, after the bombing of the federal building in OKC, after Columbine, after 911, after the shoe bomber, and after Sandy Hook. Multilayered solutions and sacrifice are ongoing in a civilized society and especially I would think in an advanced country like ours that can send a man to the moon.

What our high school kids are doing in Tallahassee today is about much more than gun reform or 2nd amendments rights. It's about their right to live. E pluribus unum; and if they are lighting the way, if this gets politics off its throne, if this bridges consciousness in our polarized and broken nation then more power to them. They have already accomplished something amazing in bringing the NRA and politicians together for their town hall tonight. This country is capable of coming together in a time of crisis. It is a teaching moment for all children. It's their future at stake.

 

[MaryG12]

It's not just about guns overall. Drunk or impaired drivers kill all day every day eventhough others on the road have a right to safety.

DUI laws are pretty lax in Florida too - I know someone who has been arrested for multiple DUI's and has to have a breathalyzer in his car at all times now. But no, he won't be losing his driver's license any time soon.

Welcome to The Outlaw State.

 

[MaryG12]

A military rifle. Not a hunting rifle. How is an assault rifle going to be used as self defense though? How many people are actually shot because of home invasion? Compared to people just going and shooting up a school I can't imagine it is many.

Florida ranks #3 in burglaries:

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_bur-crime-burglary

Keep in mind that my state gets more out-of-state people than most AKA "Snowbirds" and people who are seeking trouble:

Three Sarasota burglars tied to large crime ring out of Chicago


Sometimes the air between the natives and out-of-staters can be thick with hostility......