Gun Control Debate #1

[EuTuCroquet?]

The couple who allowed The Parkland shooter to live with them state that they had no idea a "monster" was living in their home. If two alert and educated people had no clue he had so many problems, how can anyone know who a person is or what they intend to do? I think those who are obviously mentally ill are farther down the list of those we should fear.

Thank you, mimi.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Funny, kaen, that reminded me of the time an artist friend of mine got frustrated because she was forced to remove a handmade belt buckle shaped vaguely like a gun.

She had to throw it away to board the plane, and had to submit to a full body search.

She did it, and understood why. Now she never wears belts when she flies. Sweatpants for the win! Lol

In order for people to get on the plane, they are screened for weapons - in some cases have to throw out knitting needles. We are screened for any metal in our bags and on our person. Yes, zero because you are not allowed to have the gun on the plane. We take off our shoes b/c some tried to bomb the plane with a shoe explosive. We are screened right down to our under garments b/c of the underwear bomber. I can't take more than 3.4 ounces of shampoo b/c of plastic and liquid/gel explosives. The chances of one of these trained people meeting up with a gun toting person is very low.

Great that there are people who know how to take out a gun toting attacker--- but there are very few assault or semi-automatic rifles getting onto the planes. Lest we forget that 9/11 was not a gun incident but rather a box cutter and unlocked cockpit doors.

To have wide open schools with people having access to assault weapons is a totally different story. How many people have been killed in the past 5 years in mass shootings by people with assault rifles? I defer to the great post that Gitana shared about how attacks with semi-automatic weapons versus handguns have been successfully/unsuccessfully stopped.

 

[Inthedetails]

When my siblings and I fought over a toy or some "thing," my mom would appear and take that thing away. She said it was obvious the thing was causing a problem between us, and we weren't going to give the thing that amount of power. If you fight over it, it doesn't belong here, she'd explain.

The emphasis was on our relationships as sibs. We learned to get along, and we learned not to fight over things - I think our family value is that we don't value "things" and we recognize when we're fighting over something that gets in the way of our relationships.

I am seeing this gun debate in the same light. The emphasis should be on human life and our relationships with each other. This debate is killing us just as much as the guns are - not physically, of course. We're a divided nation. We NEED to put value on each other.

Surely we can find some common ground with that idea and then build from there.

I hate all the fighting that's happening in our country.

jmopinion

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Gitana first let me say that I respect you and your opinion. After reading your posts, I read back through the thread to see if I missed posts suggesting that "all" teachers could or should be armed at all schools. I couldn't find any so I'm assuming you're referring to my post about some teachers in some schools being trained and armed. If I'm mistaken I apologize.

If the situations were as you have described above then I too would have the same concerns as you. These teachers undergo background checks. They go through combat training for both taking down the threat and administering life saving medical response. Some are carrying but most of the guns are in concealed safes throughout the building. These safes can only be opened with their fingerprint. There are also armed LE in the building working and coordinating with them.

I get that it's not perfect. I understand that some students and/or their parents may not approve or fear the idea of more guns in the school, but just as many, in most cases more of the students and parents feel safer.

This has been going on for several years in many states and AFAIK none of the scenarios you suggested have happened. I hope and pray they never do.

Again I respect yours and others opinions, negative or positive but I wanted to make it clear that it's not just any Joe Schmoe with a teaching license strapping on a gun and walking into a school with our children and grandchildren.

Respectfully, let our teachers teach. They’re not quasi military or law enforcement personnel, and should not be expected to be.

I’ve said it before: More firepower isn’t synonymous with more safety. This is one of those times.

We have the “arms race” on our streets, militarizing police, swat vehicles, body armor, more and more powerful weapons.

Let’s not invite it into our schools. Please, for the love of god, no. It’ll just make schools and teachers scapegoats as the violence continues.

There are more effective, productive solutions. Doing more to restrict access to the key contributor — access to high power firearms, ammo and thinks like bump stocks — is what we need.

More guns = more gun violence. That’s the opposite of what we SAY we want, in my opinion.

MOO

 

[x_files]

I kind of doubt that.

Many are 18. Why wouldn't they vote? curious

 

[Inthedetails]

Respectfully, let our teachers teach. They’re not quasi military or law enforcement personnel, and should not be expected to be.

I’ve said it before: More firepower isn’t synonymous with more safety. This is one of those times.

We have the “arms race” on our streets, militarizing police, swat vehicles, body armor, more and more powerful weapons.

Let’s not invite it into our schools. Please, for the love of god, no. It’ll just make schools and teachers scapegoats as the violence continues.

There are more effective, productive solutions. Doing more to restrict access to the key contributor — access to high power firearms, ammo and thinks like bump stocks — is what we need.

More guns = more gun violence. That’s the opposite of what we SAY we want, in my opinion.

MOO

I agree.

If the answer to gun violence is more guns, in my opinion, we've failed to answer. We're fallen down on the job as adults responsible for raising children.

jmopinion....feeling very down about all this, I admit!!

 

[MaryG12]

Mandatory boot camp for any students who make shooting threats against their own schools.

They need to be straightened out.

 

[Inthedetails]

Many are 18. Why wouldn't they vote? curious

The time is ripe for "get out the vote" work among the young voters. They seriously could make a difference in elections.....if they show up.

jmo

 

[Spellbound]

Gitana-Dental floss was on the list of items when I attended the Bashara Trial. Detroit. Frank Murphy Hall of Justice. You may have some slack being a Lawyer. General public rules likely differ. Yet you may have had an instance you wanted to strangle somebody :blushing:

I don’t think it is all Michigan courts, but this is for the 36th District Court in Detroit:

[h=1]Prohibited Items[/h][FONT=&quot]

• Alcoholic Beverages
• Ammunition
• Batteries
• Box cutters
• Brass/Glass Knuckles
• Bullets (anything resembling or similar)
• Cameras / Recording Devices
• Can Openers of any kind, including P38’s
• Cans—aluminum and metal
• Cell Phones (all photos from phone must be printed if you want to use as evidence in your case)
• Chains
• Cigar Cutters
• Cigarette Lighters
• Combs—Metal or Rattail
• Cord-like Objects, including ropes, chains straps, heavy belts, wires and retractable key chains
• Curling Irons
• Darts
• Dental Floss
• Drug Paraphernalia
• Electronic Cigarettes
• Electronic Devices (Laptops, Tablets)
• Explosive Materials or Objects
• Flashlights
• Flatware (which includes knives, forks or spoons)
• Food or Beverages
• Glass or Mirrors of any kind, including glass bottles of any kind
• Guns or replicas of guns / Gun Holsters
• Grease Pencil
• Hair Clippers
• Handcuffs / Handcuff Keys
• Heavy Metal Objects
• Illegal Drugs
• Knives (any kind)
• Live or Dead Bedbugs or Insects as Exhibits
• Master Locks
• Nail Clippers / Metal nail files
• Needles of any kind, except with medical documentation
• Noisemakers of any kind
• Paints of any kind
• Pencil Sharpener
• Razors or Razor Blades
• Safety Pins
• Scissors
• Screwdrivers
• Smart Watches
• Spikes on Shoes / Clothing
• Sprays of any kind (bug, mace, hair pepper spray, aerosols, perfume, cologne)
• Staplers or Staple removers
• Tools of any sort (which includes hammers, saw, measuring tape, etc.)
• Tweezers
• Weapon-like objects, including bats, clubs, batons, irons
• Weapons, including toys or replicas (except law enforcement with ID)
• Whistles
• Writing Instruments (pens, pencils, highlighters, markers, etc.)

PLEASE NOTE: Other items deemed dangerous by 36th District Court security personnel will also be prohibited. All surrendered items will be confiscated and not returned. This notice is made pursuant to MCR 8.110 and the inherent authority of the Chief Judge to insure the safety and security of the Court and those in attendance.

May 2017

http://www.36thdistrictcourt.org/general-information/prohibited-items
[/FONT]
- - -
DETROIT, MI — Pencils down, and pens and markers, too: It's not the command of a test proctor, but the order of Detroit's 36th District Court, which has added the writing utensils to a list of items visitors can't take into court. The list includes an assortment of expected items like brass and glass knuckles, box cutters and knives, and guns and ammunition, but also — and we solemnly swear this to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth — live or dead bed bugs.

https://patch.com/michigan/detroit/writing-wall-detroit-court-bans-pens-pencils

 

[Sunset]

Guns: something I never talk about in US.

I am a person from a country where guns in houses are never heard of. Well, I'm from a family which have been vegetarians for centuries, so I've never heard of anyone talk about hunting either.
The argument that many people put forth that they need it to defend themselves is interesting to me. In our country, defending ourselves from intruders meant more surveillance cameras, a security guard, pepper spray (lol), neighborhood watch, dogs, locked doors, grilled windows, high wall around house with broken glass on top, even thorny bushes. We never thought about guns.

When I see the local news here everyday, ofcourse, I've seen some commercial burglaries where the owner gets her/his gun and the burglars run away. But is that all? I saw kids (even a toddler) accidentally shooting someone, accidental shooting during hunting, school shooting and snipers targeting a crowd, one guy shooting his parent for some reason, so on.

It always raises a question for me: how many people are actually defending themselves with these guns? If a burglar is in my house and I am sleeping, will I wake up in time, load my gun and shoot them? I have no idea. When I became a high school teacher in the United States, it was a great surprise to know that a lot of my students were familiar with hunting and handling guns. But I began to understand that if these values have been passed down for centuries, a person will feel safer with a gun. I wouldn't understand it, but I respect their perspective.

The bigger question here is: how can we bring a compromise, bring a solution to this problem? Obviously, there are guns that end up in wrong hands, which result in death of innocent lives. People who own guns have more responsibility in making sure it doesn't end in the wrong hands. We all need to think together.

Idea 1:

If you give a public school teacher a gun... I don't think I'd be able to ever do that. I don't think I would be able to even hold a gun. I am just a teacher. I'd rather have a School Resource Officer (atleast 1)
which most schools in the districts here don't have because of less funding. A few teachers in my school would be great at handling guns in the campus. It is possible. I am just concerned whether a teacher would have any experience in handling such a situation. Training and actual real life danger is totally different. A police officer has more experience because they encounter it daily. Even a police officer makes mistakes because of the adrenaline. How will teachers be able to handle it ?


Idea 2: No guns at all:
Not gonna work obviously, due to cultural reasons.

Idea 3:

Do we need metal detectors in schools? Yikes. Not that possible, since those are not the only metal stuff kids have and then it would be like an airport security...
Why are kids having guns on the campus? Two kids had guns in their cars :scared: , in my neighboring school district.
New technology for gun detectors please. Like all the researches that are being conducting, this might be a worthwhile new technology.

...
Idea 4:
Mental health problems, Depression, suicidal thoughts, untamed cyber-bullying, broken homes, etc: Kids have too many problems. My school counselors and psychologist works extra hours everyday. If detection has to be done in school, more personnel would be needed. It's not easy. Ofcourse: funding funding. ... Arizona, where I live right now, has the lowest teacher salary. I doubt they can afford anything.

...

This is just a start. I am not that greatly familiar with the laws here. I need to read them (which I intend to). I just wanted to join this convo.

 

[Karinna]

Could this also be part of the problem if a child is unstable?
(quote)
The teenager arrested in the fatal school shooting in Florida has been identified as a former Army JROTC member wielding an AR-15 rifle.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/14/nicolas-cruz-arrested-parkland-florida-high-school/

Why do students even need such programmes in schools? Militarizing kids?

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Could this also be part of the problem if a child is unstable?
(quote)
The teenager arrested in the fatal school shooting in Florida has been identified as a former Army JROTC member wielding an AR-15 rifle.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/14/nicolas-cruz-arrested-parkland-florida-high-school/

Why do students even need such programmes in schools? Militarizing kids?

It was created in 1916, in part, to foster patriotism in youth.

General overview: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_Reserve_Officers_Training_Corps

ETA: fix link

 

[Karinna]

It was created in 1916, in part, to foster patriotism in youth.

General overview: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_Reserve_Officers'_Training_Corps

Thanks for posting up the info. I didn't know that it had been around for such a long time. My stepson did ROTC back in 2004 in HS and he hated it and quit.

 

[Betty P]

Well, this is interesting...

Prominent GOP donor pledges to withhold donations until candidates support weapons legislation

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/18/politics/gop-donor-ban-assault-weapons/index.html

He wants a bill to ban assault weapons passed. Unlike lowly voters, these wealthy donors usually get what they want from politicians.They say "jump", the legislators ask "how high?" This fat cat donor is already reaching out to other big GOP donors to encourage them to do the same. The big donors know who is holding up real reform legislation.

A boycott by billionaire oligarchs! How uniquely American!

 

[kaen]

Well, this is interesting...

Prominent GOP donor pledges to withhold donations until candidates support weapons legislation

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/18/politics/gop-donor-ban-assault-weapons/index.html

He wants a bill to ban assault weapons passed. Unlike lowly voters, these wealthy donors usually get what they want from politicians.They say "jump", the legislators ask "how high?" This fat cat donor is already reaching out to other big GOP donors to encourage them to do the same. The big donors know who is holding up real reform legislation.

A boycott by billionaire oligarchs! How uniquely American!

Thanks for the post. It is nice to see that the big donors are feeling compelled to get something done to stem this type of violence in schools.

 

[kittythehare]

I have no understanding of gun culture.
I want all guns banned except for LE guns.
I would like to see people handing in their guns.. all of them.
Broward co Sheriff dept Rt a tweet from a guy on 17th who had decided to hand in his gun..
Admirable gesture.
Would love to see much more of this.
Those of you who are NRA supporters, have guns or want guns or even collect guns- WHY?
we don't have guns in my country . That's a good thing, if we had we would be seeing the same problems.
I won't be staying here to debate or argue, just to ask those simple questions.

-why do you believe you need a gun?
- what do you imagine your life would be like if you agreed to forfeit your gun permanently?

Guns are for killing.
The Founding Fathers are gone, and with them a helluva lot of vicious ideology.
Tear up the second amendment and burn it.

 

[Gardenista]

I have no understanding of gun culture.
I want all guns banned except for LE guns.
I would like to see people handing in their guns.. all of them.
Broward co Sheriff dept Rt a tweet from a guy on 17th who had decided to hand in his gun..
Admirable gesture.
Would love to see much more of this.
Those of you who are NRA supporters, have guns or want guns or even collect guns- WHY?
we don't have guns in my country . That's a good thing, if we had we would be seeing the same problems.
I won't be staying here to debate or argue, just to ask those simple questions.

-why do you believe you need a gun?
- what do you imagine your life would be like if you agreed to forfeit your gun permanently?

Guns are for killing.
The Founding Fathers are gone, and with them a helluva lot of vicious ideology.
Tear up the second amendment and burn it.

The 2A is never going away, especially after SM has exposed the deep hatred the MSM & many Americans have for fellow citizens who do not agree with them. They are certainly vicious.

 

[Karinna]

The 2A is never going away, especially after SM has exposed the deep hatred the MSM & many Americans have for fellow citizens who do not agree with them. They are certainly vicious.

I also imagine they would have a hard time getting rid of the 2A. or any other Amendment for that matter, IMO. But a "deep hatred" is taking things to the extreme really. They have to respect not absolutely everyone is going to feel the same way, if they want their feelings respected in turn.

 

[Gardenista]

I also imagine they would have a hard time getting rid of the 2A. or any other Amendment for that matter, IMO. But a "deep hatred" is taking things to the extreme really. They have to respect not absolutely everyone is going to feel the same way, if they want their feelings respected in turn.

Agree and I've seen some kicking themselves and warning likeminded hateful, bigots, to cool it. It is too late though. We'd be stupid to give anything up to a group who genuinely loathes us.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

I have no understanding of gun culture.
I want all guns banned except for LE guns.
I would like to see people handing in their guns.. all of them.
Broward co Sheriff dept Rt a tweet from a guy on 17th who had decided to hand in his gun..
Admirable gesture.
Would love to see much more of this.
Those of you who are NRA supporters, have guns or want guns or even collect guns- WHY?
we don't have guns in my country . That's a good thing, if we had we would be seeing the same problems.
I won't be staying here to debate or argue, just to ask those simple questions.

-why do you believe you need a gun?
- what do you imagine your life would be like if you agreed to forfeit your gun permanently?

Guns are for killing.
The Founding Fathers are gone, and with them a helluva lot of vicious ideology.
Tear up the second amendment and burn it.

The need for self defense will never go away. There are no laws that will protect you and evil will never be taken out of the equation.