Gun Control Debate #1

[Blef]

No, because while the 2nd Amendment gives us the right to possess firearms, it doesn’t make it legal to kill people with those firearms. That’s what people seem to forget- murder is already against the law.

So what is the reason for someone to own a firearm? And I know people will say protection, but tbh doesn't the fact that so many guns are used to kill people, even if they are legally owned bother someone who believes in their right to bear arms? Why do these mass shootings, murder suicides etc not make people realise that guns are just killing machines. What else are you meant to do with a gun?

 

[bluedivergirl]

I get that its a constitutional right. However why does your constitutional right to own a killing machine supersede another person's right to live?

I'm not misusing my rights. I don't kill people.

People who have no respect for the law are killing people. Felons are not permitted to have guns. That law is rarely enforced.

I would support smaller magazines, with permitting for folks who need larger (such as swine hunters).

Raise the age for purchasing to 21.

 

[Blef]

I'm not misusing my rights. I don't kill people.

People who have no respect for the law are killing people. Felons are not permitted to have guns. That law is rarely enforced.

I would support smaller magazines, with permitting for folks who need larger (such as swine hunters).

Raise the age for purchasing to 21.

Thank you for your honest answer. Just one question.

Would you shoot and kill someone if you felt you had to? If not, why do you need a gun?

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

No, because while the 2nd Amendment gives us the right to possess firearms, it doesn’t make it legal to kill people with those firearms. That’s what people seem to forget- murder is already against the law.

I’m assuming you’re making a rhetorical argument? Murder, by definition, is “the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.”

Maybe we could do more to inhibit gun violence? Make it a little more challenging for baddies to get guns?

We’re a nation of laws, after all. [emoji106]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murder

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

rsbm

Wow. That’s a compelling statement, if true.

Source? TIA!

Felons are not permitted to have guns. That law is rarely enforced.

 

[bobcat]

So what is the reason for someone to own a firearm? And I know people will say protection, but tbh doesn't the fact that so many guns are used to kill people, even if they are legally owned bother someone who believes in their right to bear arms? Why do these mass shootings, murder suicides etc not make people realise that guns are just killing machines. What else are you meant to do with a gun?

I like to hunt, so that’s all the reason I need in my mind. I guess my guns are “killing machines.” You might say I don’t NEED to hunt. However, I do NEED to eat. How else am I going to acquire deer and elk meat for my freezer if not by using guns? Am I supposed to catch them with my bare hands, and maybe a knife?

 

[rosemadderlake]

And just to put the record straight, I am not arguing for gun prohibition. I am arguing for extremely tight gun control, which due to organisations like the NRA, will never ever happen, as people equate gun control with gun prohibition. And no-one yet has given me any valid reason why someone in suburban America needs an assault (or whatever you wish to call it) weapon.

I'll add, the majority of peeps here just want sensible, not even extremely tight gun reform. And a coming together to help create solutions to an escalating crisis. --It's a complete sideshow how this gets conflated politically; gun reform = banning guns, banning assault weapons = wiping out the second amendment, NRA = the second amendment.

The power, and giant money, big business, and grading of politicians by the NRA is so egregious considering the vast majority totally respects the second amendment.

 

[bluedivergirl]

Thank you for your honest answer. Just one question.

Would you shoot and kill someone if you felt you had to? If not, why do you need a gun?

I've pondered that. I don't know. I think I could, but I can't swear to it. It is why I do not have a handgun, only long guns.

I need a gun to kill pheasants and quail.

I once needed a gun to kill a fox. It had come in the yard of our lake house. I shouted at it, it retreated. Came forward again. I clanged to pans together. It still approached. I shot at it's feet. No change. By this time, I was convinced it was rabid. I killed it.

Many years ago, I had a new boyfriend. One evening he showed up with a friend. Their behavior was increasingly wrong-feeling. I asked them to leave, they laughed. I told them I was going to the bathroom, but went to my father's closet and retrieved his 30.06. I went into the dining room, shot the bolt and said 'it's time to leave. I think they set the carpet afire in their haste.

 

[bluedivergirl]

rsbm

Wow. That’s a compelling statement, if true.

Source? TIA!

This is a little old. I'll try and find a better one later.

http://fox6now.com/2016/10/27/there...still-dodge-minimum-sentence-despite-new-law/

 

[Blef]

I like to hunt, so that’s all the reason I need in my mind. I guess my guns are “killing machines.” You might say I don’t NEED to hunt. However, I do NEED to eat. How else am I going to acquire deer and elk meat for my freezer if not by using guns? Am I supposed to catch them with my bare hands, and maybe a knife?

Have I ever said you shouldn't have a gun? No, I said that gun control needs to be tighter. And I have argued all along that suburban American's don't need assault rifles, and even said why does anyone apart from a hunter need a high powered rifle. I get you need a gun to eat, and that is a situation I can fully accept. I can't accept a soccer mom in her SUV sipping on a skinny latte needing an AK47

 

[human]

I like to hunt, so that’s all the reason I need in my mind. I guess my guns are “killing machines.” You might say I don’t NEED to hunt. However, I do NEED to eat. How else am I going to acquire deer and elk meat for my freezer if not by using guns? Am I supposed to catch them with my bare hands, and maybe a knife?

Being from Minnesota which once had a lot of hunting, but not as much anymore, I am very familiar with hunting.

It is cheaper to go to the store and buy organic, The cost of hunting is hilariously expensive.

And no one needs an assault rifle. At least rhe hunters in my family have quite a laugh over it.

Actually, the hunters I know have switched to bow hunting which they find more satisfying.

 

[Blef]

I've pondered that. I don't know. I think I could, but I can't swear to it. It is why I do not have a handgun, only long guns.

I need a gun to kill pheasants and quail.

I once needed a gun to kill a fox. It had come in the yard of our lake house. I shouted at it, it retreated. Came forward again. I clanged to pans together. It still approached. I shot at it's feet. No change. By this time, I was convinced it was rabid. I killed it.

Many years ago, I had a new boyfriend. One evening he showed up with a friend. Their behavior was increasingly wrong-feeling. I asked them to leave, they laughed. I told them I was going to the bathroom, but went to my father's closet and retrieved his 30.06. I went into the dining room, shot the bolt and said 'it's time to leave. I think they set the carpet afire in their haste.

Thank you again for your thoughtful answer.

 

[rsd1200]

I don't want to be a broken record by continuing to post links to Dr. Langman's website, but he is an excellent source for actual research on the subject of school shootings.

I personally can start to feel hopeless when I consider that our country is filled with weapons already, and there are so many ways for people with ill intentions to get access to them.

Based on his research of school shootings and foiled attacks, he has identified ten actions that could help prevent future shootings. I actually think this would be a great article to pass on to parents, grandparents, teachers, or anyone that regularly has contact with children and teens in order to increase awareness of warning signs.

A quote from the article:

"So what can be done? The best defense is early detection. By the time shooters are approaching the school with a gun, it is too late. Even if they can be kept from entering the building, they still can go on a rampage. They can shoot people in the morning as they arrive at school, or wait until school lets out. If a door is locked, they may be able to shoot their way through. Shooters have to be stopped before they can get to the school with weapons. This means a different style of prevention than physical security" (Dr. Langman, "Ten Lessons Learned from School Shootings and Foiled Attacks")

https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/ten_lessons_1.2.pdf

I"ve not read it all, but,

If today children or students seem preoccupied withweapons, talk openly about building bombs, and are desperateto have guns, they are not necessarily potential murderers, butit is crucial that people deny them access to weapons and lookinto the situation.Both Kip and Eric manufactured and stored a large numberof bombs in their homes. They also had multiple firearms hiddenin their rooms or elsewhere in the house. When childrenare preoccupied with weapons, parents need to monitor theirbehavior and personal space to see what might be going on.

This material should be shared with parents.

My child hated me! I'm serious. My wayward one would have enjoyed "bonding" w/target shooting, but, nopers. Mine was just very impulsive and didn't like rules. There were many other things that we did do together as a family.

Also, our home was not a democracy. I'd clean their rooms for them now and then, just as a way to do a not so obvious search. If I found something that was prohibited, they were called out on it and it hit the trash.

No computers in their rooms either. I started in IT when computers had only two 5 1/4 floppies. I know what's out there. I even put nanny software on our computer. We were also pretty tight, in our own home, on violent content in video games, movies, music, etc...

I'm not joking, though, mine did not like me at all. I was okay with that. He still has some difficulties navigating life, but, he loves me now, and he's alive. I have never regretted our decision re; firearms. We've taught the kids about gun safety, we just didn't encourage any interest in them.

I am only sharing as an effort to think of ways to help.

 

[kittythehare]

And just to put the record straight, I am not arguing for gun prohibition. I am arguing for extremely tight gun control, which due to organisations like the NRA, will never ever happen, as people equate gun control with gun prohibition. And no-one yet has given me any valid reason why someone in suburban America needs an assault (or whatever you wish to call it) weapon.

How fast did bullets move when the second amendment was written and what makes and styles and models of guns were 'fashionable' /available at the time?
Was it written in response to a particular societal need or perceived need ?
Does that need exist today?
What has changed?

I have a feeling the bullets of those days didn't move much quicker than a catapult and the route they took was not very predictable..

I'm finding the talk of hunting is disturbing me.
There's a big sign on my front door that says
BAN BLOODSPORTS.
i share my home with 4 leggeds.. quite a few.. they arrive here with wounds and bruises and half dead because they were hunted by packs of dogs or shot.. by trespassers on MY land hunting the animals under my protection.

I have no gun. I have a megaphone, an airhorn and a tongue that would shame a fishwife.
I screw up more of their hunts than they screw me up.
I know when they are coming, even if in a deep sleep and my 'weapons' are beside my bed and I swear I levitate 6 feet off it when I sense their presence.

I'm about 5ft 2" and I weigh less than 7 stone.. And i'm alone. And they know it.
i can relent on the 2A, if y'all revert to using the weapons it was designed for.

Respectfully, gun advocates under the present state of affairs in America must be either sublimely selfish and narcissistic or entirely insane.

Sentient beings, whether 2 or 4 legged are not ours to kill and destroy.
Guns are for killing.
End of.

 

[Blef]

How fast did bullets move when the second amendment was written and what makes and styles and models of guns were 'fashionable' /available at the time?
Was it written in response to a particular societal need or perceived need ?
Does that need exist today?
What has changed?

I have a feeling the bullets of those days didn't move much quicker than a catapult and the route they took was not very predictable..

I'm finding the talk of hunting is disturbing me.
There's a big sign on my front door that says
BAN BLOODSPORTS.
i share my home with 4 leggeds.. quite a few.. they arrive here with wounds and bruises and half dead because they were hunted by packs of dogs or shot.. by trespassers on MY land hunting the animals under my protection.

I have no gun. I have a megaphone, an airhorn and a tongue that would shame a fishwife.
I screw up more of their hunts than they screw me up.
I know when they are coming, even if in a deep sleep and my 'weapons' are beside my bed and I swear I levitate 6 feet off it when I sense their presence.

I'm about 5ft 2" and I weigh less than 7 stone.. And i'm alone. And they know it.
i can relent on the 2A, if y'all revert to using the weapons it was designed for.

Respectfully, gun advocates under the present state of affairs in America must be either sublimely selfish and narcissistic or entirely insane.

Sentient beings, whether 2 or 4 legged are not ours to kill and destroy.
Guns are for killing.
End of.

Historically, the 2nd amendment was written so that US citizens could keep the King of England from their door. Still a massive problem I believe :giggle:

 

[rsd1200]

It is a really good article.

My teenage years are way back in the rear view mirror but I'll never forget the teacher who saw the light in me. It is a critical and pivotal transition point in life.

Without knowing the detail of NC's expulsion from school taking a look at the definition of zero tolerance policy is good idea. This teen was without a father. And he was obviously capable of discipline JROTC, and of attention to detail, and secrecy in how he pulled off this mass shooting which could indicate high intelligence, aptitude.

What is particularly chilling about him is his escape plan; wearing his JROTC shirt, leaving his weapon, exiting in the chaos, mingling with the fleeing crowd, calmly sitting in McDonald's.

Not only were there numerous red flags but perhaps as many missed opportunities for this misdirected teenager.

He wasn't so secret though. He'd made statements about shooting up a school. He'd honed his shooting skills in JROTC, and later joined a hate group, and had done some training with them. While I understand JROTC may be great and all, this particular student might have been looked at a second time, after all of his behaviour issues.

He said he would shoot people with his AR-15 and singled out police and anti-fascist protesters as deserving of his vengeance.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/14/us/nikolas-cruz-florida-shooting-suspect/index.html

A Members of the white-nationalist Republic of Florida came forward on the message-board website 4chan last night and reported that Cruz had trained with them.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/white-supremacists-trained-stoneman-shooter-cruz-adl-says-10090954

 

[Inthedetails]

Being from Minnesota which once had a lot of hunting, but not as much anymore, I am very familiar with hunting.

It is cheaper to go to the store and buy organic, The cost of hunting is hilariously expensive.

And no one needs an assault rifle. At least rhe hunters in my family have quite a laugh over it.

Actually, the hunters I know have switched to bow hunting which they find more satisfying.

So true! My mom used to say that the venison, quail, etc that we ate was the most expensive thing we had, lol! My dad spent a lot of money on hunting. (It was okay - everyone enjoyed it, I'm not complaining....but it wasn't a cheap hobby.)

 

[kittythehare]

[FONT=&amp] https://twitter.com/CNN/status/966445366995451904

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"I can't get on a plane with a bottle of water. But...some animal could walk into a school and shoot our children." Andrew Pollack, whose daughter died in the Florida school shooting, encourages lawmakers to prioritize school safety[/FONT]

 

[Jinkasaurus]

I am appreciating the tone on this thread where people are respectfully sharing their views and experiences on this difficult subject.

As if we need more complexity to deal with, this morning on NPR I heard a segment about how Russian bots were putting out extreme views on gun control very shortly after this shooting.

This is something all of us Americans need to be aware of - the Russians want us to turn on each other and to cause chaos in our society. Bots promoting extreme views and fake news are one way they are helping to achieve this.

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/20/5873...-false-information-after-the-florida-shooting

 

[rsd1200]

Simply put, it doesn't matter if we NEED one. It is our Constitutional right to have one. No one else gets to decide if I NEED one.

We have a Second Amendment because my ancestors fought your ancestors for the right to self-govern. They had just finished an armed insurrection against a very powerful country. The framers of the Constitution were acutely aware of the need for citizens to be armed. It is a very deeply held principal for many Americans.

An assault weapon is an ordinary rifle in different clothing. It functions just the same as Grandpa's rifle. That said, I would consider banning them as they are clearly favored by those bent on harm.

I have a semi-auto weapon. I enjoy bird hunting (and eating). A semi-auto is typically used because birds are fast.

I currently live in Florida. We have trouble with feral swine. They are destructive and dangerous, and they come into suburban yards. Heck, they come into golf courses and tear them up. They are killed with semi-auto rifles, and it is very common. One single shot will not kill them. Just makes 'em mad.

BBM
We've discussed this between ourselves and a friend who owns one. Do we NEED them. Probably not. Would I give mine up if I thought it would save a life? Yes. Are we the folks to be afraid of? No.

There are millions out there now. I'd not curl into a fetal position of they banned them, but, they're lightweight and very little kick which makes them nice for me, but, I normally pack my little .38 special. Fits in my front pocket and easily covered w/my t-shirt. Bears are my biggest worry here, and a loud noise along with my dogs, should be adequate. I hope.

It's the ability to be able to not have to reload that makes semis more appealing to mass shooters. So do we get rid of semi handguns too? Pop out a spent mag and reload. They even reconfigure magazines or get illegal sized ones, or just carry a bunch. It's nothing to snap one out and another in.

Then though, you've got the bomb makers, (Eric and Dylan for example), or, a trunk of, and I won't even type it, but 30# of the "T" stuff, in a vehicle, and a single shot... That would be just horrific too, and could be done from yards and yards away.

I really like the Peter Langman lessons that OP provided up thread.