Gun Control Debate #2

[EuTuCroquet?]

Yes, let's talk about all gun violence, including completed suicide by firearm, which is nearly double the rate of homicide by firearm.


This is 2013-14 data from the CDC, but it's just the first that came up in my search. There's loads more.

Firearm—In 2014, 33,594 persons died from firearm injuries in the United States (Tables 18 and 19), accounting for 16.8% of all injury deaths in that year. The age-adjusted death rate from firearm injuries (all intents) did not change significantly in 2014 from 2013.

The two major component causes of firearm injury deaths in 2014 were suicide (63.7%) and homicide (32.8%).

The age-adjusted death rate for firearm homicide decreased 2.8%, from 3.6 in 2013 to 3.5 in 2014. The rate for firearm suicide did not change.

(snip)

From 1999 through 2014, the age-adjusted suicide rate in the United States increased 24% (breakdown by race here), from 10.5 to 13.0 per 100,000 population, with the pace of increase greater after 2006. ...

The most frequent suicide method in 2014 for males involved the use of firearms (55.4%), while poisoning was the most frequent method for females (34.1%).​

rbbm

This is where I agree with you. When discussing gun reform we need to take into consideration all gun violence. The majority of people aren't being killed with 'assault rifles'. Young adult men are losing their lives at rates greater than women and children.

I'm linking a recent article on gun deaths in New Orleans in 2017 to show breakdown of age and sex. This is only one city but I'll bet if we look at statistics for Chicago and other major cities I think we would find similar results. IMO

Gun violence in New Orleans in 2017: Who was shot, when and where

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2018/02/new_orleans_shootings_2017_num.html

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

It sounds like a good plan. But ...

They didn't tell the public which schools have armed teachers and administrators? I wonder how parents feel about it. (The story comments are telling.)

I also wonder, how many mass shootings did these specific Ohio districts have before implementing the program?

Was there an established threat?

What other protections do the schools have, like armed guards, metal detectors, sniffer dog searches, bookbag and locker checks? Mental health referrals? Safety drills?

Now I'm really curious.

Thanks for sharing the link, Bayou.

Teachers with guns? Some Ohio districts arm staff but don’t tell public

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/ne...f-but-don-tell-public/MjHYWX1vg26Enx1sfR1OXO/

Four years after bringing guns into Sidney City Schools, Superintendent John Scheu said more than 90 percent of the staff who first volunteered have stayed with the program. He said the district has no issue finding educators willing to bear arms.

“As a matter of fact, we have a waiting list,” Scheu said.

 

[flourish]

People are already criticizing the lone security guard who didn't engage the shooter. If teachers were armed they would absolutely be held accountable if they didn't act quickly enough or take what someone perceived as an opportunity to take out a gunman. Someone just upthread already implied that teachers who didn't want to be armed don't care enough about the children to protect them. I have to strongly disagree with anyone who thinks people wouldn't have unreasonable expectations and criticism for the armed teachers after an attack.

My master's degree is in teaching. I taught in classrooms for 14 years. In case of a shooter, my job was to get my doors locked, shades drawn, then all 18 preschool students to the one area of the classroom not near a door or windows, and keep them quiet and calm.

Anyone here have experience keeping 18 preschool aged kids quiet ever? How about in a stressful scary situation? How did it go?

So what I'm supposed to do all that then break the law by leaving the entire class with the one assistant teacher while I go play swat team? Do I suddenly not have to follow the rules about student teacher ratios?

I didn't sign on for that. Teachers are not paid enough for that. And do we just assume that all the taxpayers who vote down school levies are going to be okay with increasing their taxes to arm the teachers? Although, they might, because priorities... Can't agree to pay more to ensure children have heating in the classroom but happy to pay for firearms?

I taught my students to try non violent strategies for change, but I'm then going to whip out a gun?

Also, if I taught little Jimmy am I really going to feel okay blowing his head off? In front of my students? My students aren't going to look at me differently after seeing me blow someone away?

I remember losing at least one Facebook friend over this issue after Sandy Hook... None of my teacher friends were calling to be armed--just people who wouldn't have to actually do it. It's easy to say I should shoot someone when you aren't me.


And finally, did my eyes deceive me or did I really see my WS bestie bluesneakers upthread?!?!

 

[CARIIS]

re raising gun age to 21-- more shooters are over 21 than any other age

if we extrapolate that out we would have around 16 school shootings per year -- one about every three days or so

https://everytownresearch.org/reports/analysis-of-school-shootings/

 

[CARIIS]

Re adjusting Hippa

I remember all this stuff.

It took three years to rollout Hipaa

Was a zoo!!

Every form in every place across the land had to be changed. And reviewed! Costs (making up ha ! 1 trillion

lawyer fees 1.2 billion

training lawyers to be able to provide entnties with what they must do not to violate Hippa 19 billion

Training for the top folks in any medical setting in the land

17 trillion

Training downwards after lawyers and top hearcy trained 475 billion !!

After above then they start to hash out fine schedules for violations -- 25 billion !

So if congress can find 874 trillion dollars Hipaa laws can be changed by 2021- 2025.! We have to remember congress should be closed for any of the peoples business until Feb 2019 - they all have to start running


just saying .........................


http://health-information.advanceweb.com/Article/What-Will-HIPAA-Cost-and-HIPAA-Privacy-and-Proposed-Security-Standards-A-Tandem-Approach-to-Compliance.aspx



http://blog.securitymetrics.com/2015/11/what-is-hipaa-and-how-long-will-it-take.html

 

[kittythehare]

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/no...expertly-dismantles-trumps-plan-arm-teachers/

[FONT=&quot]Nance appeared Monday on “MSNBC Live,” where he told host Stephanie Ruhle that specialized military training was required to override survival instincts — and even that didn’t always work.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]“You have to be trained to want to get up and go into fire, that’s what the armed forces does for you,” Nance said. “I went through SWAT officer training when I got out of the military, and the first thing they do is they teach you is to really lock up and then move in on a target. That’s what active shooter training is for in law enforcement. But if you’re not really trained, you’re not proficient, it’s not like in the movies. The movies have nothing to do with reality. You’re putting yourself where you can be killed.”

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Depending on the distance that you’re away, civilians don’t understand, in close quarters, the first thing you have to experience is the explosive sound of the weapon going off — not yours, the shooter’s,” Nance said. “It practically deafens you in an urban environment, inside a school building or something like that. It’s not like in the movies, where can you hear. It’s like somebody stabbing your ear a knife. If you can get past that and still move you’ll be conducting a gun battle, a firefight with people running back and forth in front of you.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Law enforcement will go the default — which is to shoot the person with the gun.”[/FONT]

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Copying over from school shooting thread. It seems like it’s appropriate here, too.

[FONT=inherit !important]Deputy accused of failing to act during school shooting releases statement, says he is no coward[/FONT]


Mr. Peterson initially “received a call of firecrackers — and not gunfire — in the area of the 1200 Building.”

In response to the firecracker call Mr. Peterson along “with Security Specialist Kelvin
Greenleaf exited the 100 Building and ran north the couple of hundred yards to the 1200
Building.”

Upon arriving at 1200 Building Mr. Peterson “heard gunshots but believed that those
gunshots were originating from outside of any of the buildings on the school campus.”

BSO trains its officers that in the event of outdoor gunfire one is to seek cover and assessthe situation in order to communicate what one observes to other law enforcement.

Consistent with his training, Mr. Peterson “took up a tactical position between the 700-800 buildings corridor/corner.”

Mr. Peterson was the first BSO officer to advise BSO dispatch that he heard shots fired.

Mr. Peterson “initiated a ‘Code Red’ lockdown of the entire school campus.”

“The first police officer that arrived on-scene was from the Coral Springs Police
Department.” Mr. Peterson informed this Coral Springs Police Officer that he “thought
that the shots were coming from outside.” This Coral Springs Police Officer took up a
tactical position (approximately twenty yards away from Mr. Peterson) behind a tree with
his rifle.

“Radio transmissions indicated that there was a gunshot victim in the area of the football
field,” which served to confirm Mr. Peterson’s belief “that the shooter, or shooters, were
outside.”

Mr. Peterson had the presence of mind to have the school administrators go to the school’s video room to review the closed-circuit cameras to locate the shooter and the obtain a description for law enforcement.

Mr. Peterson provided his keys to the Coral Springs SWAT team so that they could enter
the 1200 Building.

Mr. Peterson “provided BSO SWAT Command with handwritten diagrams of the entire
Stoneman Douglas campus for student evacuation.”

etc...

Mr. Peterson is looking forward to cooperating with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement’s investigation, which we hope will detail the events of that tragic day and which we believe will ultimately clear Mr. Peterson’s name

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

respectfully snipped for focus

I don’t see any added safety or value in arming teachers (or students). It would just make LE’s job more difficult.

MOO

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/no...expertly-dismantles-trumps-plan-arm-teachers/

[/FONT][/COLOR][FONT=&quot]Law enforcement will go the default — which is to shoot the person with the gun.”[/FONT]

 

[southernmimi]

Teachers already do protect the students by getting them to the safest places away from the shooter.
I don't think we should ask for more from them.
They didn't sign up to be armed guards or to shoot anyone.
The best plan is less guns in school not more. IMO

Prison guards have guns and that's who needs them...not teachers. I have five grandchildren in the public school system, and I want a way to stop shooters from ever getting onto a campus. Fence them all and post armed guards at the entrance. I don't care...just find a way to prevent them from having the opportunity to enter a school yard.

 

[CADwrest]

This is a good tool: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-deaths/

Once you click through the 12 point presentation, you can play around with the variables yourself, controlling for cause, gender, age, and race.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Are we, as a society, willing to forfeit the right to due process by allowing citizens (teachers) the right to shoot and kill the mentally ill?

Honest question.

 

[CARIIS]

[FONT=&amp]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] Immediately after Trump was inaugurated, the Justice Department removed 499, 212 felons from the gun database

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/fbi-gun-control-database-wanted-fugitives-removed-definition-change-law-ban-buy-weapons-a8072016.html[/FONT]

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Prison guards have guns and that's who needs them...not teachers. I have five grandchildren in the public school system, and I want a way to stop shooters from ever getting onto a campus. Fence them all and post armed guards at the entrance. I don't care...just find a way to prevent them from having the opportunity to enter a school yard.

Most correctional officers do not carry firearms while on duty in a prison.

Firearms Training – Training programs for correctional officers also include training in a variety of weaponry. Firearms training is necessary for corrections officers even if they do not typically carry them during their professional duties. Prison guards in close proximity with offenders generally do not carry firearms, but still must maintain proficiency in case of emergencies or if they are assigned to perimeter tower duty. This training may include use of pistols, rifles and shotguns. Proficiency in the use of these firearms must be regularly demonstrated through qualifying tests; in most states, re-qualification must occur annually.

https://www.correctionalofficeredu.org/training/

 

[bobcat]

Are we, as a society, willing to forfeit the right to due process by allowing citizens (teachers) the right to shoot and kill the mentally ill?

Honest question.

Are you serious? The right to kill someone who’s in the middle of a mass murder incident? Just think if Cruz had been killed halfway through the incident and instead of 17 killed there were only 8 killed. That wouldn’t be a good thing in your opinion? You’d rather let Cruz live so many more people would die, just so the killer could have his “due process?”

 

[bluesneakers]

Prison guards have guns and that's who needs them...not teachers. I have five grandchildren in the public school system, and I want a way to stop shooters from ever getting onto a campus. Fence them all and post armed guards at the entrance. I don't care...just find a way to prevent them from having the opportunity to enter a school yard.

You're describing a prison.

 

[CARIIS]

People are already criticizing the lone security guard who didn't engage the shooter. If teachers were armed they would absolutely be held accountable if they didn't act quickly enough or take what someone perceived as an opportunity to take out a gunman. Someone just upthread already implied that teachers who didn't want to be armed don't care enough about the children to protect them. I have to strongly disagree with anyone who thinks people wouldn't have unreasonable expectations and criticism for the armed teachers after an attack.

My master's degree is in teaching. I taught in classrooms for 14 years. In case of a shooter, my job was to get my doors locked, shades drawn, then all 18 preschool students to the one area of the classroom not near a door or windows, and keep them quiet and calm.

Anyone here have experience keeping 18 preschool aged kids quiet ever? How about in a stressful scary situation? How did it go?

So what I'm supposed to do all that then break the law by leaving the entire class with the one assistant teacher while I go play swat team? Do I suddenly not have to follow the rules about student teacher ratios?

I didn't sign on for that. Teachers are not paid enough for that. And do we just assume that all the taxpayers who vote down school levies are going to be okay with increasing their taxes to arm the teachers? Although, they might, because priorities... Can't agree to pay more to ensure children have heating in the classroom but happy to pay for firearms?

I taught my students to try non violent strategies for change, but I'm then going to whip out a gun?

Also, if I taught little Jimmy am I really going to feel okay blowing his head off? In front of my students? My students aren't going to look at me differently after seeing me blow someone away?

I remember losing at least one Facebook friend over this issue after Sandy Hook... None of my teacher friends were calling to be armed--just people who wouldn't have to actually do it. It's easy to say I should shoot someone when you aren't me.


And finally, did my eyes deceive me or did I really see my WS bestie bluesneakers upthread?!?!

Hi Blue!!

Awesome post -- this is actually one of the stupidest things I have heard of.

what next armed mental health folks

bus drivers

garbage men in neighborhoods

pastors

bands on stages

once again, any intelligent notions have been sidetracked with lunatic, unrealistic, undoable nonsense.

We really don't have to worry about it tho its not gonna fly its just way to stupid imo

 

[CARIIS]

You're describing a prison.

more than a prison !

Our prisons don't even do that ?

 

[bluesneakers]

more than a prison !

Our prisons don't even do that ?

Prisons have fences, armed guards, head-counts, metal detectors. Though you're right - not every guard inside is armed.

 

[kay74]

Prison guards have guns and that's who needs them...not teachers. I have five grandchildren in the public school system, and I want a way to stop shooters from ever getting onto a campus. Fence them all and post armed guards at the entrance. I don't care...just find a way to prevent them from having the opportunity to enter a school yard.

Here ya go! We should have the same gun laws Japan has: If Japanese people want to own a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written test, and achieve at least 95% accuracy during a shooting-range test. Then they have to pass a mental-health evaluation, which takes place at a hospital, and pass a background check, in which the government digs into their criminal record and interviews friends and family. They can only buy shotguns and air rifles — no handguns — and every three years they must retake the class and initial exam. ​

 

[bobcat]

Here ya go! We should have the same gun laws Japan has: If Japanese people want to own a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written test, and achieve at least 95% accuracy during a shooting-range test. Then they have to pass a mental-health evaluation, which takes place at a hospital, and pass a background check, in which the government digs into their criminal record and interviews friends and family. They can only buy shotguns and air rifles — no handguns — and every three years they must retake the class and initial exam. ​

Sounds like a horrible place to live where everything in your life is controlled by the government. We sure don’t need to be like Japan. Won’t ever happen anyway as you’d need to get rid of the 2nd Amendment first. Can’t own a rifle in Japan even after jumping through all the hoops? How do they hunt?