Gun Control Debate #2

[CARIIS]

Here's how Ohio is paying for it. I think it's great the kids feel safe.

In Ohio, many of the students seem to agree with some of their teachers being trained to use firearms.

“To have people inside the school who know what they are doing and who can protect us, I mean, that's amazing and I don't think there's really any room for complaints,” said Liberty Flynn, a 10th-grade student at Stebbins High School in Riverside, Ohio.

“When we are inside those four walls, they are our safety. That's our safety for the day,” said Stebbins High School sophomore, Will Rodriguez.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/2...n-teachers-to-handle-guns-are-our-safety.html

The state of Ohio currently offers funding for schools to train their staff to respond in emergency situations. There are more than a dozen other states across the country with school districts that have teachers or staff who are trained to fire back, or which legally allow adults with guns on school grounds.

Levity Break !!

An english teacher with a little pistol against a machine gun ??

An unstable child who yanks out the pistol -- heck with this nonsense they don't even need to procure a gun 58 year Mrs Parker is packing heat !!

If they passed a law when I was practicing that I had to be armed I would not do it . Period

I am not walking around in office with a weapon on my person

i would never shoot a gun

i have no interest in learning how to shoot a gun

what the govt is gonna make teachers purchase guns

They are already buying pencils out of there own money

when are these teachers going to the old shooting range

i am quite confident there are a ton of teachers that feel the way I do will not do it

teachers that eagerly sign up ( will never happen - its moronic ) for this added duty should have their ability to teach cancelled instantly

funny its like if maintenance man wants to learn forensics be concerned he may have dead bodies on your property !!

Would you let ticket takers drive city busses??

Dentists do liver transplants

There is no correlation between teaching and playing rent a cop none

oh jeeezzzzzzzz we are in deep trouble as a nation

he he

there are machine gun shootings in churches ya want your pastor or whatever armed!!

There have been shootings at concerts -- would you like your headliner packing a machine gun on stage that's funny

there have been shootings at airports ya want gate agents loaded and ready to blast

should the cleaners in schools be packing heat

cafeteria workers !!

the landscapers!

Guidance counselors

it is actually sit com

late night is gonna have a field day tonight

the school bus drivers armed with a lead foot and some lead in their pants !!

there have been shooting in hospitals ya want nurses armed god forbid ya get one who is nipping from the med room !!! ]]

rich rich late night material !!

 

[human]

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...land-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/

In a typical handgun injury that I diagnose almost daily, a bullet leaves a laceration through an organ like the liver. To a radiologist, it appears as a linear, thin, grey bullet track through the organ. There may be bleeding and some bullet fragments.

I was looking at a CT scan of one of the victims of the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, with extensive bleeding. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?

...."...................

As a doctor, I feel I have a duty to inform the public of what I have learned as I have observed these wounds and cared for these patients. It’s clear to me that AR-15 or other high-velocity weapons, especially when outfitted with a high-capacity magazine, have no place in a civilian’s gun cabinet. I have friends who own AR-15 rifles; they enjoy shooting them at target practice for sport, and fervently defend their right to own them. But I cannot accept that their right to enjoy their hobby supersedes my right to send my own children to school, to a movie theater, or to a concert and to know that they are safe. Can the answer really be to subject our school children to active shooter drills—to learn to hide under desks, turn off the lights, lock the door and be silent—instead of addressing the root cause of the problem and passing legislation to take AR-15-style weapons out of the hands of civilians?

 

[sorrell skye]

Israel said school resource officer Scot Peterson took a position outside of Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School but "never went in" as the onslaught occurred, citing security footage.

"In the case of Scot Peterson, our school resource deputy, I want to clarify any rumors, conjecture or stories that may have been out there," Israel said.

Israel said Peterson was "absolutely on campus," adding that he was armed and in uniform during the shooting.

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local...r-Who-Was-at-Parkland-Shooting-474889753.html

An armed security officer was on campus - and according to Broward County Sheriff's Office, the armed security officer on campus took no action to protect the students.

Question to the NRA & others who propose stationing armed security guards on school campuses: based upon this report, how can armed security guards protect students if the guards are going to balk?

 

[Hatfield]

Levity Break !!

An english teacher with a little pistol against a machine gun ??

An unstable child who yanks out the pistol -- heck with this nonsense they don't even need to procure a gun 58 year Mrs Parker is packing heat !!

If they passed a law when I was practicing that I had to be armed I would not do it . Period

I am not walking around in office with a weapon on my person

i would never shoot a gun

i have no interest in learning how to shoot a gun

what the govt is gonna make teachers purchase guns

They are already buying pencils out of there own money

when are these teachers going to the old shooting range

i am quite confident there are a ton of teachers that feel the way I do will not do it

teachers that eagerly sign up ( will never happen - its moronic ) for this added duty should have their ability to teach cancelled instantly

funny its like if maintenance man wants to learn forensics be concerned he may have dead bodies on your property !!

Would you let ticket takers drive city busses??

Dentists do liver transplants

There is no correlation between teaching and playing rent a cop none

oh jeeezzzzzzzz we are in deep trouble as a nation

he he

there are machine gun shootings in churches ya want your pastor or whatever armed!!

There have been shootings at concerts -- would you like your headliner packing a machine gun on stage that's funny

there have been shootings at airports ya want gate agents loaded and ready to blast

should the cleaners in schools be packing heat

cafeteria workers !!

the landscapers!

Guidance counselors

it is actually sit com

late night is gonna have a field day tonight

the school bus drivers armed with a lead foot and some lead in their pants !!

there have been shooting in hospitals ya want nurses armed god forbid ya get one who is nipping from the med room !!! ]]

rich rich late night material !!

Hello Cariis,

Lets please not distort or lie about the discussions.

The article clearly is not implying that all teachers would have to do anything like you just suggested. Lets please be honest in our discussions.

"Each member of the team is vetted, selected by the district, and must have a license to carry. The team goes through “rigorous” monthly training. “These teachers are trained and trained as well in the use of firearms as the average police officer,”

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/2...n-teachers-to-handle-guns-are-our-safety.html

 

[bobcat]

I don’t think I’ve heard the suggestion that teachers would be REQUIRED to carry a gun, only that it would be an option for those who choose to do so. I think it’s a great idea, shouldn’t even be a question about it. Potential school shooters won’t know who’s armed and who’s not, so they’re much less likely to try to carry out out a mass shooting in the first place. (Since they’re ALL cowards)

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

However the middle class American woman's disaffected teenager would be able to get hold of that gun, as has happened in so many cases, and then you get a tragedy like the others. I really wonder how many people who are victims of rape, home invasion etc actually have successfully thwarted that attack because they have a gun?

I couldn't include the quote in that post which I was replying to.

The argument is flawed because you’re disallowing segments of the population (ex. Middle class Moms who have teenagers) the right to bear arms to defend themselves. Our society does not Willy-nilly discriminate segments of populations in **written law**.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Israel said school resource officer Scot Peterson took a position outside of Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School but "never went in" as the onslaught occurred, citing security footage.

"In the case of Scot Peterson, our school resource deputy, I want to clarify any rumors, conjecture or stories that may have been out there," Israel said.

Israel said Peterson was "absolutely on campus," adding that he was armed and in uniform during the shooting.

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local...r-Who-Was-at-Parkland-Shooting-474889753.html

An armed security officer was on campus - and according to Broward County Sheriff's Office, the armed security officer on campus took no action to protect the students.

Question to the NRA & others who propose stationing armed security guards on school campuses: based upon this report, how can armed security guards protect students if the guards are going to balk?

But why did he have to have that NAME? (Levity break)

 

[Hatfield]

Israel said school resource officer Scot Peterson took a position outside of Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School but "never went in" as the onslaught occurred, citing security footage.

"In the case of Scot Peterson, our school resource deputy, I want to clarify any rumors, conjecture or stories that may have been out there," Israel said.

Israel said Peterson was "absolutely on campus," adding that he was armed and in uniform during the shooting.

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local...r-Who-Was-at-Parkland-Shooting-474889753.html

An armed security officer was on campus - and according to Broward County Sheriff's Office, the armed security officer on campus took no action to protect the students.

Question to the NRA & others who propose stationing armed security guards on school campuses: based upon this report, how can armed security guards protect students if the guards are going to balk?

This is a valid question and speaks to the hiring process of that guard. Was the hiring process done nonchalantly that they just let Uncle Joe have a job or did the school really vett this person as someone who had the skills and training and disposition of someone who could help in an emergency.

Epic fail in hiring this person as a security guard in the first place.

 

[sorrell skye]

But why did he have to have that NAME? (Levity break)

I thought the same thing - UGH!

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Worth thinking about, imo, as considerations are made as to added security, adding armed guards, arming teachers.

The Psychological Trauma of Killing

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...h-becomes-us-the-psychological-trauma-killing

And what about the suffering that comes from being the one who does the killing? According to Lt. Col. Dave Grossman in his book, On Killing, it turns out that people, including soldiers are not “naturally born” to pull the trigger.

In Grossman’s view, it has long been a myth that one of the greatest threats to mental health while at war is the fear of dying. At least as distressing is the act of taking the life of a fellow human being, regardless of nationality or circumstance. This can be seen when soldiers put themselves in danger to avoid having to kill someone else, an act that, in Grossman’s experience, occurs more frequently than we think.

(snip)

Killing is often misrepresented in film as far easier than it is. In reality, the “duty” is mentally taxing, leaving most soldiers physically ill in the moment and often haunted by nightmares for a lifetime. Being responsible for ending the life of another human is a significant source of trauma; trauma that is compounded by factors such as proximity to the victim and the type of weapon used.

 

[Blef]

I don’t think I’ve heard the suggestion that teachers would be REQUIRED to carry a gun, only that it would be an option for those who choose to do so. I think it’s a great idea, shouldn’t even be a question about it. Potential school shooters won’t know who’s armed and who’s not, so they’re much less likely to try to carry out out a mass shooting in the first place. (Since they’re ALL cowards)

Do you honestly think a teacher with an unloaded .22, kept in a safe, is going to stop a kid with an arsenal of military grade weapons from attacking a school? Honestly?

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

This is a valid question and speaks to the hiring process of that guard. Was the hiring process done nonchalantly that they just let Uncle Joe have a job or did the school really vett this person as someone who had the skills and training and disposition of someone who could help in an emergency.

Epic fail in hiring this person as a security guard in the first place.

I agree for the most part but please note that Security Guards in the area are given a fairly quick training and get paid between $11.00 to $16.00 per hour. This is for “G” certified Armed Security Guards. Unarmed make less. And arming a school would seem less threatening than a bank or other locations.

In reality, when faced with an AR-15 and all you have is a handgun, one must be SWAT trained to be able to maneuver to fire a deadly shot while the criminal is literally spraying bullets everywhere and moving at random.

I’m not defending this Security Guard but just presenting a bit of reality into the situation.

We can all speculate what our actions should be when alone in that tense and startling moment but I feel to respond effectively to an active shooter, one needs SWAT/military/LE or continuous and rigorous training. And nobody is paying the salary for that quality or skill set.

 

[rsd1200]

So can I bring my question of why a civilian needs a military grade weapon in their home over here? There hasn't been an answer to that question yet.

Honestly? I've said this before, I don't "need" our semi automatic firearm right now. In 2004 the ban on semis was dropped and no one bothered to re-instate the ban. They became available. It's a fun rifle to shoot. It's lightweight. Hardly any recoil. Am I the person who is going to be a problem? No. A lot of folks buy things they don't "need". I ride motorcycles. I've almost died riding motorcycles. So has my spouse. Some folks think we are nuts for riding bikes. I also have a very fast car that I don't "need". I enjoy driving it though. I'm not the one who rolled the ban back. There's millions of semis on the streets and no one seems to have a definite description of what they want to do with them. Personally, if they ban them, I'd grandfather in folks like me, and offer a buy back option, as well.

There is a "machine gun" shoot in my state, a couple times a year. Actual, automatic, machine guns. Folks pay X$ to get to fire them. It's attended by all ages, and both male/female. This is what those look and sound like.

These are, most definitely, weapons of war.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h11uEvGc7u8

 

[sorrell skye]

This is a valid question and speaks to the hiring process of that guard. Was the hiring process done nonchalantly that they just let Uncle Joe have a job or did the school really vett this person as someone who had the skills and training and disposition of someone who could help in an emergency.

Epic fail in hiring this person as a security guard in the first place.

I agree, Hatfield. It also brings into question, IMO, the whole idea of attempting to "solve" the problem by hiring armed security guards who will purportedly protect our kids in school.

If one armed guard balks in the face of danger, can we really trust our childrens' safety to other armed guards who may also cower when confronted with the same scenario?

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns

They weren’t the first victims of a mass shooting the Florida radiologist had seen—but their wounds were radically different.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...land-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/

Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim's body that are roughly the size of the bullet. If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and they do not bleed to death before being transported to our care at a trauma center, chances are, we can save the victim.

The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different; they travel at higher velocity and are far more lethal. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than, and imparting more than three times the energy of, a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun. An AR-15 rifle outfitted with a magazine cartridge with 50 rounds allows many more lethal bullets to be delivered quickly without reloading.​

 

[Blef]

Honestly? I've said this before, I don't "need" our semi automatic firearm right now. In 2004 the ban on semis was dropped and no one bothered to re-instate the ban. They became available. It's a fun rifle to shoot. It's lightweight. Hardly any recoil. Am I the person who is going to be a problem? No. A lot of folks buy things they don't "need". I ride motorcycles. I've almost died riding motorcycles. So has my spouse. Some folks think we are nuts for riding bikes. I also have a very fast car that I don't "need". I enjoy driving it though. I'm not the one who rolled the ban back. There's millions of semis on the streets and no one seems to have a definite description of what they want to do with them. Personally, if they ban them, I'd grandfather in folks like me, and offer a buy back option, as well.

There is a "machine gun" shoot in my state, a couple times a year. Actual, automatic, machine guns. Folks pay X$ to get to fire them. It's attended by all ages, and both male/female. This is what those look and sound like.

These are, most definitely, weapons of war.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h11uEvGc7u8

So because it's fun to shoot you are happy that military grade rifles are available? That just doesn't make sense to me. A motorbike IS fun, but its not solely designed to kill or maim. An AK17 is a murder weapon.

 

[watergirl62]

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...land-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/

In a typical handgun injury that I diagnose almost daily, a bullet leaves a laceration through an organ like the liver. To a radiologist, it appears as a linear, thin, grey bullet track through the organ. There may be bleeding and some bullet fragments.

I was looking at a CT scan of one of the victims of the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, with extensive bleeding. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?

...."...................

As a doctor, I feel I have a duty to inform the public of what I have learned as I have observed these wounds and cared for these patients. It’s clear to me that AR-15 or other high-velocity weapons, especially when outfitted with a high-capacity magazine, have no place in a civilian’s gun cabinet. I have friends who own AR-15 rifles; they enjoy shooting them at target practice for sport, and fervently defend their right to own them. But I cannot accept that their right to enjoy their hobby supersedes my right to send my own children to school, to a movie theater, or to a concert and to know that they are safe. Can the answer really be to subject our school children to active shooter drills—to learn to hide under desks, turn off the lights, lock the door and be silent—instead of addressing the root cause of the problem and passing legislation to take AR-15-style weapons out of the hands of civilians?

How about

c) all of the above?

I don't see it as an either/ or but more of a concerted effort on multiple levels.

Address the root, definitely. Ban automatics and high-round magazines and x and y and z and Blef's proverbial military assault weapon-packing SUV-driving soccer-mom, but also address the day-to-day reality that our kids have inherited.

We also need to teach our children to be safe and do whatever we can to protect them from this special hell we have created. Paid security, armed teachers, metal detectors, lockdown drills, gun awareness, whatever.

I think it will require consistent efforts from numerous seemingly-juxtaposed angles to achieve any measure of real progress, and sadly, there are no guarantees here. MOO

 

[CARIIS]

Hello Cariis,

Lets please not distort or lie about the discussions.

The article clearly is not implying that all teachers would have to do anything like you just suggested. Lets please be honest in our discussions.

"Each member of the team is vetted, selected by the district, and must have a license to carry. The team goes through “rigorous” monthly training. “These teachers are trained and trained as well in the use of firearms as the average police officer,”

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/2...n-teachers-to-handle-guns-are-our-safety.html

Hi Hat

I feel these are not distortions --IMO ( respectfully what we do here!) It is again IMO a sit - com idea.

Do you realize he guessed a number of 20% - MSNBC - that came out to like 700 000 teachers . Do the math. Its fiscally stupid. There would be more armed teachers than LE !!!

- utterly ridiculous. I have worked with these kids. The risk of them grabbing their armed arts and crafts teacher is more real than you might imagine my dear !!

NOw I suppose it would be a lucrative notion for the NRA !

Kids shoot each other daily over a video game. Really -- like one angry out of control kid isn't gonna grab the spelling teacher's gun and kill the peer .

A teacher gives a kid detention and he she grabs the gun and blows the teacher away.

The answer is NOT putting more guns around to prevent gun murders .

It identical to recommending vaseline petroleum jelly on wet roads --

WOuld one really like to shoot at and miss a pis##sd off kid with a machine gun ??

Let the people that happen to be teachers that want to do this go hunting or something !!

Look up how many times cops miss -- its incredible.

Respectfully !

Teachers are not immune to mental illness. Teachers are not immune to addiction . One snapped teacher armed and ready to fire

Watch teachers response -- teachers I would think have no desire to have more guns all over their schools jmo

What about a disgruntled Biology teacher who is now armed?

 

[Hatfield]

Worth thinking about, imo, as considerations are made as to added security, adding armed guards, arming teachers.

The Psychological Trauma of Killing

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...h-becomes-us-the-psychological-trauma-killing

And what about the suffering that comes from being the one who does the killing? According to Lt. Col. Dave Grossman in his book, On Killing, it turns out that people, including soldiers are not “naturally born” to pull the trigger.

In Grossman’s view, it has long been a myth that one of the greatest threats to mental health while at war is the fear of dying. At least as distressing is the act of taking the life of a fellow human being, regardless of nationality or circumstance. This can be seen when soldiers put themselves in danger to avoid having to kill someone else, an act that, in Grossman’s experience, occurs more frequently than we think.

(snip)

Killing is often misrepresented in film as far easier than it is. In reality, the “duty” is mentally taxing, leaving most soldiers physically ill in the moment and often haunted by nightmares for a lifetime. Being responsible for ending the life of another human is a significant source of trauma; trauma that is compounded by factors such as proximity to the victim and the type of weapon used.

Excellent points. The hiring process of any armed security guards for a school should be taken very seriously and should have a very thorough and important vetting process.

And even with that, when a terrible situation like what just happened occurs, we may see some examples where some who thought they could handle it may find that they really cannot handle it as well as they had thought.

All a school can do is try to make sure and hire the right people for the job at hand. The hiring process must be taken very seriously.

 

[KaaBoom]

I don’t think I’ve heard the suggestion that teachers would be REQUIRED to carry a gun, only that it would be an option for those who choose to do so. I think it’s a great idea, shouldn’t even be a question about it. Potential school shooters won’t know who’s armed and who’s not, so they’re much less likely to try to carry out out a mass shooting in the first place. (Since they’re ALL cowards)

Except that 50% of mass shooters kill themselves after the attack. So at least half of them are not worried about dying. Most of the rest know that the police will be there in minutes, and there is a good chance they will be killed. So they are not too worried about dying either.

Other problems. In very few cases has an armed citizen ever been able to stop a mass shooter. In most cases they don't want to get involved for fear of police mistaking them as the gunman. In the Sutherland Springs case, 26 people were already dead by the time "the good guy with a gun", was able to take him out. So even if an armed teacher could kill a mass shooter, dozens of students would likely already be dead by that point.

Now imagine the police arriving on an active shooter call to find multiple teachers exchanging gunfire with a mass shooter. Arming teachers is like fighting a fire with gasoline.