Gun Control Debate #2

[rsd1200]

Broward didn't have a creditable account of the incident. Other than to say, the deputy didn't go in when he should have.

( and adding the unnecessary adjectives revolting sickening ect)...

He wouldn't release the tape, or offer the deputies point of view, not at all credible in my opinion. I want a full accounting... not just what you'd like people to think, before I consider someone creditable.

I've never been one of those ,"if LE says it's so, it's so" kind of people, I like to wait and see what shakes out. Believe It or not law enforcement officials lie all the time.

I'm not super trusting of LE myself, but, this seems to have been witnessed by the Coral Springs, FL, LE Dept., when they arrived on scene, and, he was not the only one that they saw, there were three of his peers, also deputies from the Broward County Sheriff's Dept., who were outside, behind vehicles, as well.

 

[Safeguard]

I'm not super trusting of LE myself, but, this seems to have been witnessed by the Coral Springs, FL, LE Dept., when they arrived on scene, and, he was not the only one that they saw, there were three of his peers, also deputies from the Broward County Sheriff's Dept., who were outside, behind vehicles, as well.

s/bbm
"When police arrived, he told them he thought the gunman was outside - a belief backed up by "radio transmissions [which] indicated that there was a gunshot victim in the area of the football field," Mr Peterson said, according to his lawyer"
"the allegations that Mr. Peterson was a coward and that his performance, under the circumstances, failed to meet the standards of police officers are patently untrue. Mr. Peterson is confident that his actions on that day were appropriate under the circumstances and that the video (together with the eye-witness testimony of those on the scene) will exonerate him of any sub-par performance," the statement said."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...on-defends-response-parkland-shooting-n851281

"Sheriff Israel has indicated that the video may never be released to the public, but then commentated on the very same video to allege that Mr. Peterson took up a position on the west-side of the building, but that Mr. Peterson never went in the building.

Sheriff Israel’s statement is, at best, gross oversimplification of the events that transpired. Sheriff Israel’s February 22nd statement conveniently omitted the following facts for the public’s consideration:

Mr. Peterson initially “received a call of firecrackers — and not gunfire — in the area of the 1200 Building.”

 In response to the firecracker call Mr. Peterson along “with Security Specialist Kelvin Greenleaf exited the 100 Building and ran north the couple of hundred yards to the 1200 Building.”

 Upon arriving at 1200 Building Mr. Peterson “heard gunshots but believed
that those gunshots were originating
from outside of any of the buildings on
the school campus.”

BSO trains its officers that in the event of outdoor gunfire one is to seek cover and assess the situation in order to communicate what one observes to other law enforcement.

 Consistent with his training, Mr. Peterson “took up a tactical position between the 700-800 buildings corridor/corner.”

 Mr. Peterson was the first BSO officer to advise BSO dispatch that he heard shots fired.

 Mr. Peterson “initiated a ‘Code Red’ lockdown of the entire school campus.”

 “The first police officer that arrived on-scene was from the Coral Springs Police
Department.” Mr. Peterson informed this Coral Springs Police Officer that he “thought that the shots were coming from outside.”

This Coral Springs Police Officer took up a tactical position (approximately twenty yards away from Mr. Peterson) behind a tree with his rifle.

 “Radio transmissions indicated that there was a gunshot victim in the area of the football field,” which served to confirm Mr. Peterson’s belief “that the shooter, or shooters, were outside.”

http://breaking911.com/breaking-dep...l-shooting-releases-statement-says-no-coward/

 

[human]

Bruna and the 3,300 students of Stoneman Douglas High join a growing roster of people who have survived school shootings, many grappling with injuries or the effects of trauma for the rest of their lives. For the survivors of Building 12, the hulking, three-story building where police say a former classmate decided to open fire on about 550 students, the memories are especially vivid.

An ongoing Washington Post analysis has found that more than 150,000 students attending at least 170 primary or secondary schools have experienced a campus shooting since the 1999 Columbine High massacre. And research has shown that standardized test scores fall among students who remain at schools where there has been a fatal shooting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...8e748f892c0_story.html?utm_term=.d00b88512580

 

[rsd1200]

s/bbm
"When police arrived, he told them he thought the gunman was outside - a belief backed up by "radio transmissions [which] indicated that there was a gunshot victim in the area of the football field," Mr Peterson said, according to his lawyer"
"the allegations that Mr. Peterson was a coward and that his performance, under the circumstances, failed to meet the standards of police officers are patently untrue. Mr. Peterson is confident that his actions on that day were appropriate under the circumstances and that the video (together with the eye-witness testimony of those on the scene) will exonerate him of any sub-par performance," the statement said."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...on-defends-response-parkland-shooting-n851281

While I disagree with the way that the Sheriff seemed to lay all blame on that one deputy, there were eyewitnesses, and they were not only of the one deputy. Even after other LEOs arrived, he never entered the building. It was his job to find, distract, engage, the shooter.

Sources from Coral Springs, Fla., Police Department tell CNN that when its officers arrived on the scene Wednesday, they were shocked to find three Broward County Sheriff’s deputies behind their cars with weapons drawn.


The school’s armed resource officer, Broward County Sheriff’s Deputy Scot Peterson, was also outside. He resigned on Thursday after his failure to act was publicly revealed.


The Coral Springs cops entered the building to engage the shooter on their own, before other Broward County deputies arrived, two of whom joined the police inside, the sources said.


It was unclear whether the shooter was still inside at the time, CNN reported.

https://nypost.com/2018/02/23/four-sheriffs-deputies-hid-during-florida-school-shooting/

"I think he remained outside for upwards of four minutes," Israel said Thursday in a news conference. The shooting, he said, lasted six minutes.


The sheriff came to the conclusion after watching surveillance video, talking to witnesses and getting a statement from Peterson.

When gunfire broke out, Israel said, Peterson was in a different building, helping resolve an unidentified issue with another student.


He rushed to Building 12, but did not go inside.


"I think he (Peterson) got on his radio at a point and time and he took up a position where it looked like he could see the western most entry into the building and never went in," Israel said.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/us/florida-school-shooting/index.html

 

[Safeguard]

By arming a teacher in the classroom, you're asking them to be ready and set to shoot at a moment's notice. The teachers would be ready to attack 24/7 on the job - "FBI hostage rescue level qualified." It cannot reasonably be expected of teachers to be FBI hostage rescue level qualified AND teach classes of what are often 30+ children. It's just not practical.

bbm
That's just not true. In my opinion that's a hysterical projection.

First of all, no one is asking teachers to do anything they aren't comfortable doing. Presumably most teachers are intelligent enough to reason out that choice for themselves.

Secondly, if a teacher is already comfortably carrying at home, I'm sure they're not just hyper-vigilant, walking around waiting to shoot someone 24/7...

They take care of their kids, grade papers make dinner, walk the dog Etc...
Those are the teachers who would likely not have any problem going about there school duties carrying or not.

It seems like some people are acting like teachers are going to be forced to arm themselves, whether they want to or not, when that's just not the case.

There are plenty of teachers that already carry at school and I'm not hearing about any problems with that.

 

[Tricia]

Hey Everyone,

Please have patience with me. I will be back in the morning to open a new thread. I'm afraid if I try and do anything
even slightly technical I will turn Websleuths into a Mandarin Chinese Cooking channel. Best to make a new thread after a good night's sleep.

Thanks for all you do.

Tricia

 

[watergirl62]

Here's one...
https://thinkprogress.org/corporations-nra-f0d8074f2ca7/
View attachment 130719

Thank$, Ro$emadderlake. $uch an effective driver at work here.

After Atlanta-based Delta Airlines eliminated a special discount program for NRA members, Georgia's lieutenant governor has threatened to fight against a tax break for the company. NPR's Ailsa Chang talks about what's at stake with Georgia Public Broadcasting's Stephen Fowler.

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/27/5892...ens-delta-airlines-after-company-cuts-ties-wi

~~~~~

This transcript gives a good overview of what exactly is going on here.

Delta can do as they please as a corporation. Period. They made the right decision IMO.

I think the LT is being short-sighted here... As in he cut off his nose to spite his face. This will have a greater impact in the long-term on the perceived hospitality and marketability of Atlanta and the state of Georgia than this single issue.

Atlanta, you can have Amazon, seriously Austin has no room at the inn, oh wait no, Cagle may have just inadvertently crossed you off the list.

Any GA locals have an opinion on this boycott NRA backlash and upcoming elections? TIA.

 

[Spellbound]

Dick’s Sporting Goods

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/...r-will-stop-selling-assault-style-rifles.html

One of the nation’s largest sports retailers, Dick’s Sporting Goods, said Wednesday morning it was immediately ending sales of all assault-style rifles in its stores.

The retailer also said that it would no longer sell high-capacity magazines and that it would not sell any gun to anyone under 21 years of age, regardless of local laws.

 

[Spellbound]

Is FB for sporting goods store allowed?

https://www.facebook.com/dickssport...47285781446/10155335235681447/?type=3&theater

 

[watergirl62]

From your NYT link, Spellbound:

Edward Stack, the 63-year-old chief executive of Dick’s whose father founded the store in 1948, is deliberately steering his company directly into the storm, making clear that the company’s new policy was a direct response to the Florida shooting.

“When we saw what happened in Parkland, we were so disturbed and upset,” Mr. Stack said in an interview Tuesday evening. “We love these kids and their rallying cry, ‘enough is enough.’ It got to us.”

He added, “We’re going to take a stand and step up and tell people our view and, hopefully, bring people along into the conversation.”


Wow, I want to copy this entire article.
Excellent! Hey Academy, check. It's your move.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Dick’s Sporting Goods

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/...r-will-stop-selling-assault-style-rifles.html

One of the nation’s largest sports retailers, Dick’s Sporting Goods, said Wednesday morning it was immediately ending sales of all assault-style rifles in its stores.

The retailer also said that it would no longer sell high-capacity magazines and that it would not sell any gun to anyone under 21 years of age, regardless of local laws.

This took a lot of guts. It sends a powerful message that you don't need to wait for laws to do what is right, at the right time.

The students said if congress won't act, it is up to us. --Someone is listening.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Hooray for Dicks!

 

[Deleted member 39678]

By arming a teacher in the classroom, you're asking them to be ready and set to shoot at a moment's notice. The teachers would be ready to attack 24/7 on the job - "FBI hostage rescue level qualified." It cannot reasonably be expected of teachers to be FBI hostage rescue level qualified AND teach classes of what are often 30+ children. It's just not practical.

I'm not sure what "FBI hostage rescue level qualified" is exactly but a training program similar to the one airline pilot's use would be reasonable to me.


Federal flight deck officer training

The Federal Flight Deck Officer Program trains eligible flight crew members to use firearms to defend against an act of criminal violence or air piracy. Since 2003, TSA authorized federal flight deck officers are trained to use force to guard against individuals attempting to gain control of the flight deck of an aircraft.

https://www.tsa.gov/news/releases/2015/12/14/federal-flight-deck-officer-training

 

[watergirl62]

I'm not sure what "FBI hostage rescue level qualified" is exactly but a training program similar to the one airline pilot's use would be reasonable to me.


Federal flight deck officer training



https://www.tsa.gov/news/releases/2015/12/14/federal-flight-deck-officer-training

Training also includes defense tactics, the psychology of survival and program standard operating procedures. Held in Artesia, New Mexico, training is conducted in a state-of-the-art facility at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and consists of 56 hours of intense training over the course of six days.*

Yes...
Maybe something structured like 40-hr OSHA HAZWOPER training, with the initial week-long certification and annual 8-hr or 16-hr refreshers to maintain certification.

 

[CARIIS]

During just the 2016 election cycle, the NRA spent $54 million in the presidential and congressional races, nearly $20 million of which went to attacking Democrat Hillary Clinton and more than $11 million to support Republican Donald Trump. In 2008 and 2012, the group had spent $18 million opposing Democrat Barack Obama and $10 million supporting Republicans John McCain and Mitt Romney.


A NRA spokesperson said the group spends money in elections on behalf of its five million members across America to defend their constitutional right to own guns.
In the past 15 years, the pro-gun group has spent a total of more than $132 million on ads supporting or opposing presidential or congressional candidates.
Here are the three U.S. senators and House members who have benefited the most from the NRA’s ad buys, according to Federal Election Commissionrecords

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/lawmakers-nra-money/story?id=53230001

 

[CARIIS]

• UPS and FedEx are publicly sparring over their respective ties to the National Rifle Association.
• FedEx declared “the NRA uses UPS” after thousands of customers urged them to cut ties amid calls for stricter gun control.
• UPS hit back saying that unlike FedEx, it does not offer special rates for NRA members.

---

[FONT=&quot]The feud between UPS and FedEx over NRA ties keeps escalating.

http://wallstreetrag.com/fedex-and-ups-spar-over-nra-ties/[/FONT]

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Yeezus gawd, that number is mind-blowing.

Thanks for sharing this link, human.

Bruna and the 3,300 students of Stoneman Douglas High join a growing roster of people who have survived school shootings, many grappling with injuries or the effects of trauma for the rest of their lives. For the survivors of Building 12, the hulking, three-story building where police say a former classmate decided to open fire on about 550 students, the memories are especially vivid.

An ongoing Washington Post analysis has found that more than 150,000 students attending at least 170 primary or secondary schools have experienced a campus shooting since the 1999 Columbine High massacre. And research has shown that standardized test scores fall among students who remain at schools where there has been a fatal shooting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...8e748f892c0_story.html?utm_term=.d00b88512580

 

[rosemadderlake]

I know teachers here have described training they have received, and schools have lock down drills. The aspect of TSA training might be really great as a part of integrated training which covers a smaller quarter scenario. This parkland FL high school is really big so what training (FBI) would be helpful in navigating, averting or zeroing in on a shooter, or terrorist?

To arm a few teachers and call it a day feels incomplete, to me. Guess my question is with or without a firearm are teachers equipped with all the defense mechanisms they can deploy in groups, or solo encounters?

It's so sad, there's no more normal for kids at school, but one of the high schoolers spoke about better security, surveillance, metal detectors, etc.

It has to be an integrated solution because there are also athletic fields, all the outdoor activities, school busses arrivals, departures, etc.

This school's herb and vegetable garden alone is 15,000 Sq. Ft.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...ting-profile-school-pride-20180217-story.html

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Hahaha! Literal LOL, AlwaysShocked! :loveyou:

Hooray for Dicks, indeed. Yay for corporate responsibility. Hopefully it'll inspire other businesses to follow. ... and it required zero legislation.

(rbbm)

Dick's Sporting Goods CEO on decision to no longer sell assault-style rifles: 'We don’t want to be a part of this story'
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/dick...company-longer-sell-assault/story?id=53403284

"Based on what’s happened and looking at those kids and those parents, it moved us all unimaginably," company Chairman and CEO Edward Stack said today on Good Morning America, referring to the Feb. 14 school shooting in Parkland, Florida, that killed 14 students and three educators.

​

"To think about the loss and the grief that those kids and those parents had, we said, ‘We need to do something,'" Stack, whose father, Dick, started the business 70 years ago, explained. "And we’re taking these guns out of all of our stores permanently." (snip)

When asked whether there is a chance the company will reverse its position on the newly announced ban, Stack replied, "Never."


​

Hooray for Dicks!

 

[watergirl62]

• UPS and FedEx are publicly sparring over their respective ties to the National Rifle Association.
• FedEx declared “the NRA uses UPS” after thousands of customers urged them to cut ties amid calls for stricter gun control.
• UPS hit back saying that unlike FedEx, it does not offer special rates for NRA members.

---

[FONT=&quot]The feud between UPS and FedEx over NRA ties keeps escalating.

http://wallstreetrag.com/fedex-and-ups-spar-over-nra-ties/[/FONT]

The Olympics were amazing but this US corporate theater throwdown is also quite stunning to watch. Booyah.