Gun Control Debate #2

[kimlynn]

I think most of us can see that the arming teachers ruse is doing something/anything to avoid any regulating for stricter gun control.
IMO

 

[kaen]

I'd prefer to be standing behind a 'good guy with a gun' rather than waiting on LE to come and save me.

With all due respect, our students would rather be at their desks/seats learning, not fearing for their lives or having to think about the idea that a shooter can come and kill them or their classmates. They want the opportunity to be children. Why not given them professional armed protection rather than less trained protection? Protection from people who are trained and it is the focus of their job. It is crazy to advocate putting one more thing on a teacher's plate and then hold their yearly raise to their kid's job performance (Can't count the states)or take away their pensions (as they did in NJ). Teachers are the same people that so many have railed against with respect to their performance (not me, I see lots of hardworking teachers but have heard from too many others their opinions).

 

[Tawny]

I'd prefer to be standing behind a 'good guy with a gun' rather than waiting on LE to come and save me.

And yet the vast majority of teachers are not on board with taking on that responsibility. I can't blame them. As a Soldier, I cannot even fathom asking a civilian schoolteacher to do this. It seems so easy for random American citizens to expect this of schoolteachers when we aren't the ones who will have to do it.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

And yet the vast majority of teachers are not on board with taking on that responsibility. I can't blame them. As a Soldier, I cannot even fathom asking a civilian schoolteacher to do this. It seems so easy for random American citizens to expect this of schoolteachers when we aren't the ones who will have to do it.

There are teachers now that CC and would be willing to undergo extra training to CC on school grounds. Nobody is asking or expecting this of teachers just the teachers that are willing and highly trained. IMO

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Random 2am thoughts from across the pond:

Wouldnt it just be better to stop guns getting in to schools in the first place? Ban school bags, make kids walk through metal detectors?

How did this ex student get into the building? Would finger print technology help? Only allow current students in with an option to deactivate any user ?

Could school staff use a taser instead of a gun, in a worst case scenario? I appreciate events must unfold very rapidly but it’s just a thought. I feel sick at the thought of armed teachers.

Are there ever weapon amnesties in the USA? I know we have occasional ones here where you can hand in any weapons (mainly knives) no questions asked. These tend to be pretty successful.

I’m sure this last rambling has been addressed, but for what legitimate reasons might an ordinary civilian have need for an semi/automatic weapon?

Sorry for any typos and for such disconnected questions, I’m so tired I can barely read!

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I'd prefer to be standing behind a 'good guy with a gun' rather than waiting on LE to come and save me.

Thank you.

This post is the most logical common sense statement on this thread.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I believe that with proper training anyone, including teachers, can have the skills to stop an active shooter using a handgun. JMO

I hear what you’re saying Ranch but I think the ability of a law-abiding, armed, peaceful civilian to take another life (even that of a violent gun-toting murderer) is a psychologically complicated issue that goes beyond simply training and a perfect example is evident even by our trained & armed Deputy not taking action.

Some will flee, some will fight. Some can envision themselves as hero’s and swear they know exactly what they will do. Sometimes instincts kick in one way or another. I think a persons response under a tremendously stressful situation is highly unpredictable, especially if one hasn’t been indoctrinated into it as a lifestyle in a rigorous sense. What makes a hero? Instincts? Grittiness? Self confidence?

You have to know thyself and be honest. Personally, I’ve seen myself perform heroics and have been commended. And then again, I’ve felt myself feel afraid in situations. None of my personal events revolve around an active shooter though and personally, I’d like to think I’d be heroic in a civilian sense but who can be 100% sure. And that’s being honest.

 

[wonderllama]

I see this is the 2nd thread and 42 pages long.
There's an excellent chance that I won't be reading through all that (I'm at work after all)

So could I ask what gun-related steps people here are prepared to take, specifically those steps that result in fewer guns being available or accessible to people who either don't have a licence, are not the owners or who are bat-**** crazy and will never have a licence.

Thanks

 

[Spellbound]

I believe that with proper training anyone, including teachers, can have the skills to stop an active shooter using a handgun. JMO

Not “anyone” IMO. Honestly, when I was working in a classroom, I would not have been the one you would want to have a gun in hand. I would be worried about accidentally shooting the wrong person or ignoring my students’ needs first. Not all of us are suited for feeling capable to handle such a responsibility.

 

[Safeguard]

Not “anyone” IMO. Honestly, when I was working in a classroom, I would not have been the one you would want to have a gun in hand. I would be worried about accidentally shooting the wrong person or ignoring my students’ needs first. Not all of us are suited for feeling capable to handle such a responsibility.

It's hard to predict, in such an intense and terrifying event as this shooting, how any person might react, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were, at least a few, MSD staff members that would have given anything for a shot at it.

 

[KaaBoom]

I believe that with proper training anyone, including teachers, can have the skills to stop an active shooter using a handgun. JMO

Only in the movies. Not in real life.

 

[KaaBoom]

I see this is the 2nd thread and 42 pages long.
There's an excellent chance that I won't be reading through all that (I'm at work after all)

So could I ask what gun-related steps people here are prepared to take, specifically those steps that result in fewer guns being available or accessible to people who either don't have a licence, are not the owners or who are bat-**** crazy and will never have a licence.

Thanks

Here is my two step plan again.

1. Require states to regulate firearms exactly as they do motor vehicles. Including firearms licenses for all gun owners. Registration and proof of liability insurance for each gun. Failure to comply would result in firearms and or motor vehicles being impounded.

2. Universal free health care services for everyone, with a requirement that everyone get a check up, at least once a year with a medical doctor and once a year with a psychiatrist. The check ups would include the doctors certifying that the patients are well and fit to operate a motor vehicle or use a firearm. Failing to get that certification would immediately result in suspension of driver's license and firearms license, and motor vehicles and firearms would be impounded until the person is certified well enough to operate a motor vehicle or use a gun.

 

[Safeguard]

It's completely relevant to school shootings and explains how someone, like a teacher, who is armed with a handgun has some advantages over a shooter using a rifle in the confines of a classroom.

The fact that a shooter is armed with a rifle is not a factor for police to not engage and stop the killing just because they are armed with a handgun. JMO

I must say I agree. Having watched the snap chat video of the third classroom being shot into by NC, it's clear that he was hyper focused on that room and anyone who was capable with a handgun could have come up behind him and taken him down. imo.

 

[Tillicum]

I must say I agree. Having watched the snap chat video of the third classroom being shot into by NC, it's clear that he was hyper focused on that room and anyone who was capable with a handgun could have come up behind him and taken him down. imo.

And IMO if the guard had already been in the building when the shooting started he would've handled it differently. It's one thing when you're behind concrete on the other side of the door (safe) but a whole different thing when you're inside with the killer and seeing those kids being shot.

 

[wonderllama]

As an Australian, I have to say that the manner in which you folks are talking about a school teacher "taking down" an armed gunman/woman in a school really does shock me.

Perhaps living somewhere that doesn't have guns changes expectations, but my parents were both teachers and rather than attacking someone, I think the natural reaction for them would be to look out for the children in their care, not be armed and ready for when someone bursts in the room. It also makes the teacher the first target, as we have already seen. Eliminate the immediate threat, ie: the adult.

 

[kittythehare]

One of the big issues in the Parkland murders (other than the murderer) is armed personnel who didn't even try to do their job. I understand that an assault rifle is not comparable to a pistol, but there should have been an effort.

are you aware that the only 'armed personnel' at the school at the same time as the killer was the deputy who did not enter and has resigned?
The shooter had already left by the time the others got there.
See Broward Sheriff dept for full statement.

 

[Safeguard]

And IMO if the guard had already been in the building when the shooting started he would've handled it differently. It's one thing when you're behind concrete on the other side of the door (safe) but a whole different thing when you're inside with the killer and seeing those kids being shot.

Oh absolutely. I am still not clear about what happened there...

We don't have the deputie's side of the story which I find odd, plus they won't release the video tape footage that might shed some light on why they're coming down so hard on this guy...

At first I thought he must be a sacrificial lamb, a diversionary tactic to take the heat off other people, because how could he know that the killer wouldn't shoot him the minute he open the door, or even, how many gunmen were there inside? What exactly did LE advise him to do after he called in the location?

So many questions are being evaded, it makes me think we are not getting the full story about this...

But if it is true as some reports are stating, that he did actually see NC enter the building, and the sound of gunfire might have provided general whereabouts, then that would be most damaging imo.

 

[kittythehare]

I think most of us can see that the arming teachers ruse is doing something/anything to avoid any regulating for stricter gun control.
IMO

#askaTeacher.
There is a teacher contributing to this discussion. she has made some very clear and simple points.
Anybody could understand them.
The NRA propaganda rhetoric has been outargued a million times.
I'm reluctant to bring the discussion back to banning all guns but I really see no other way forward.
The good-guy-with-the-gun is about as useful in a school teacher situation unless it's an uzi at least and he's behind the shooter.

 

[kittythehare]

Oh absolutely. I am still not clear about what happened there...

We don't have the deputie's side of the story which I find odd, plus they won't release the video tape footage that might shed some light on why they're coming down so hard on this guy...

At first I thought he must be a sacrificial lamb, a diversionary tactic to take the heat off other people, because how could he know that the killer wouldn't shoot him the minute he open the door, or even, how many gunmen were there inside? What exactly did LE advise him to do after he called in the location?

So many questions are being evaded, it makes me think we are not getting the full story about this...

But if it is true as some reports are stating, that he did actually see NC enter the building, and the sound of gunfire might have provided general whereabouts, then that would be most damaging imo.

The questions are not being evaded actually.
They are all being answered, truthfully, and by the sheriff's dept.
See CNN or the Broward Sheriff facebook or twitter handle for the answers.

What HAS happened, however, is that the lunatic fringe has once again got the rumor mill going, planted fake stories, fake vids and downright lies, hacked accounts and hurt as many people as possible in the process while google et al are claiming helplessness in the wake of this further desecration.

The facts ARE there, they CAN be found.

Each state has different protocols for dealing with such an event.

The protocol in Florida is to go in, not wait, kill the shooter and end the threat.

He waited.

He broke protocol.
He has resigned and the investigation is ongoing.

 

[kittythehare]

What fascinates me is that while we are wondering why 4 trained officers didn't rush in to save children, we are also having a conversation where people seriously want to arm teachers and expect more from them! Where is the logic in this???

Only the one present.
Here we go me hearties..

https://app.box.com/s/wsur9w49yyr1rxpgdsjvfslbcpyulggw