Gun Control Debate #3

[little_miss_smart]

I'm comfortable in my circle knowing that I can trust an armed citizen.

How's the crime rate in the UK these days. I know just a few years ago the UK was considered the crime capital of Europe. I wonder why that was since you have a limited amount of guns.

ETA https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...73/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html

The article you've linked to is over 10 years old, so not quite 'a few years ago'...and includes a broad range of crimes. I'm not delusional, I know here in the UK we have a lot of problems with crime. But this discussion is about gun control I thought? I commented on the thread with my thoughts which was not intended to offend or claim that I live in a safer country than yours or any other country. No country is without it's issues, some have fewer problems than others and vice versa.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Crime covers everything from spitting in the street in the UK up to murder. If we are comparing apples and apples, which this thread is meant for, lets look at how many shooting deaths occurred in the UK compared to the US.

The article I linked was referring to violent offenses not spitting in the street.

From the link -

The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa.

Violent offenses were higher than in the US. Maybe the potential for guns being used in self defense deters crimes here idk. Maybe we shoukd discuss tax rebates for legal gun owners.

 

[Blef]

I'm comfortable in my circle knowing that I can trust an armed citizen.

How's the crime rate in the UK these days. I know just a few years ago the UK was considered the crime capital of Europe. I wonder why that was since you have a limited amount of guns.

ETA https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...73/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html

What about the stranger on the street that you don't know. You might know your circle of friends are responsible gun owners and handlers but what about the guy who is sitting 3 rows in front of you in the movies? Or someone in a local restaurant? Those people you don't know, and therefore don't know if they are going to pull out a gun and start shooting.

 

[Blef]

The article I linked was referring to violent offenses not spitting in the street.

From the link -

The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa.

Violent offenses were higher than in the US. Maybe the potential for guns being used in self defense deters crimes here idk. Maybe we shoukd discuss tax rebates for legal gun owners.

And was from nearly 10 years ago. And the UK has a far broader definition of violent crime than the US for statistics. You have 4 crimes that make up violent crimes: murder/non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault. In the UK burglary, any sexual crime and domestic violence are all classed as violent crimes. Again you are comparing apples and oranges.

And I've made a suggestion (which you have ignored) several times regarding genuine hunters and tax. A gun for self defense doesn't need 100 bullets.

Oh and spitting in the street and hitting someone with that spit would be counted as an assault on the person in the UK, so that WOULD be a violent crime statistic​

​

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

What about the stranger on the street that you don't know. You might know your circle of friends are responsible gun owners and handlers but what about the guy who is sitting 3 rows in front of you in the movies? Or someone in a local restaurant? Those people you don't know, and therefore don't know if they are going to pull out a gun and start shooting.

What about all the people that stand their ground everyday against people that exist to do harm.

 

[Blef]

What about all the people that stand their ground everyday against people that exist to do harm.

I was pointing out you saying you feel safe around your gun holding friends, and asked you how you know the person you don't know is a careful and responsible gun owner. Answering a question with a question just really isn't an answer.

 

[bluesneakers]

What about all the people that stand their ground everyday against people that exist to do harm.

Who are the people standing their ground and not doing any harm? Stand your ground laws are actually harmful and lead to more homicides.

Florida's 'Stand Your Ground' Law Linked to Homicide Increase

What “stand your ground” laws actually do

Researchers summarized one of the more recent studies they reviewed: “stand your ground laws were associated with a 6.8% increase in homicide rates, mainly driven by increments (14.7%) in homicide rates among white males.”

States that pass Stand Your Ground laws see increases in homicide rates.

A 2012 study by researchers at Texas A&M found that Stand Your Ground laws are associated with a clear increase in homicides, resulting in 600 more homicides per year.

In Florida, for example, their Stand Your Ground law was linked to a 32 percent increase in total firearm homicides.

At the same time, homicides deemed justifiable by law enforcement tripled.

In 2013 the Tampa Bay Times has found that at least 26 children and teens have been killed in Florida Stand Your Ground cases since 2005.

 

[Blef]

Who are the people standing their ground and not doing any harm? Stand your ground laws are actually harmful and lead to more homicides.

Florida's 'Stand Your Ground' Law Linked to Homicide Increase

What “stand your ground” laws actually do



States that pass Stand Your Ground laws see increases in homicide rates.

We just need to look at George Zimmerman to see how the "Stand your ground" law can be misused just to kill someone who isn't doing a single thing wrong

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

I was pointing out you saying you feel safe around your gun holding friends, and asked you how you know the person you don't know is a careful and responsible gun owner. Answering a question with a question just really isn't an answer.

I don't know who that bad person is with a gun that's why it's good to have responsible people with guns to defend against the people who intend to cause harm. That just goes without saying.

 

[Blef]

I don't know who that bad person is with a gun that's why it's good to have responsible people with guns to defend against the people who intend to cause harm. That just goes without saying.

So you must be scared of gun crime if you feel safer if your armed. I've never experienced that feeling ever.

Maybe if gun ownership/handling was more tightly controlled then the bad person wouldn't have that gun, and then you wouldn't need a gun for self defense?

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

What does compromise equal?

Well I can tell you what “no compromise” looks like......it looks like “now”.

Without compromises, there will be no gun reform.

As it has been......sorry to say.....

All moo

 

[bluesneakers]

I was pointing out you saying you feel safe around your gun holding friends, and asked you how you know the person you don't know is a careful and responsible gun owner. Answering a question with a question just really isn't an answer.

I've noticed (and JMO etc) when it comes to guns a lot of Americans think with their hearts and their guts rather than rely on facts and science. So when they're shown proof of how more guns mean more firearms deaths they can brush it aside because that's not how it feels. They feel safer and that's good enough. Even the very real fact of a gun in the house increases your odds for shooting a loved one/shooting yourself/a toddler shooting someone they can ignore because somehow they're the exceptions.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

So you must be scared of gun crime if you feel safer if your armed. I've never experienced that feeling ever.

Maybe if gun ownership/handling was more tightly controlled then the bad person wouldn't have that gun, and then you wouldn't need a gun for self defense?

Bingo!

We have convicted felons committing crimes with guns. Minimum sentences.
We have criminals committing gun crimes bought from black markets. Minimum sentences. Prisons are overloaded.

We have reported but no-one-ever-does-anything-about-it mentally deteriorating and threatening people who take action with guns to carry out their threats. Don’t want our school district’s stats to look bad (smh). No money in the mental health field.

We have lax individual gun sales laws.

We have an outrageous illegal drug market (especially heroin & meth) and gangs running rampant running “Cowboy” in the streets.

We have social strain due to after-tax income disparity.

We have a weakly defended domestic violence process. “You made your bed & you lie in it” (smh).

So yeah, there’s reasons to be afraid of gun crime here in the States. Trust our observations and handle them with respect, please.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I've noticed (and JMO etc) when it comes to guns a lot of Americans think with their hearts and their guts rather than rely on facts and science. So when they're shown proof of how more guns mean more firearms deaths they can brush it aside because that's not how it feels. They feel safer and that's good enough. Even the very real fact of a gun in the house increases your odds for shooting a loved one/shooting yourself/a toddler shooting someone they can ignore because somehow they're the exceptions.

It’s very simple really. Law abiding Americans feel that if they turn in their guns, it will be a gun-toting holiday for criminals who operate off the grid & possess their guns illegally. These criminals do not pay taxes, they do not care about gun registries, and they find ways to commit crimes while armed to get what they want. That is their lifestyle and it is unlikely to change.

These hardened criminals would love to commit gun crimes on “soft targets”....aka those that are unarmed.

I’m sure most law-abiding Americans fear giving up their guns because they don’t want to become victims to gun-toting criminals or violent crazy &/or crazed druggies on meth.

 

[Blef]

Bingo!

We have convicted felons committing crimes with guns. Minimum sentences.

We have criminals committing gun crimes bought from black markets. Minimum sentences. Prisons are overloaded.

We have reported but no-one-ever-does-anything-about-it mentally deteriorating and threatening people who take action with guns to carry out their threats. Don’t want our school district’s stats to look bad (smh). No money in the mental health field.

We have lax individual gun sales laws.

We have an outrageous illegal drug market (especially heroin & meth) and gangs running rampant running “Cowboy” in the streets.

We have social strain due to after-tax income disparity.

We have a weakly defended domestic violence process. “You made your bed & you lie in it” (smh).

So yeah, there’s reasons to be afraid of gun crime here in the States. Trust our observations and handle them with respect, please.

I don't not respect it. I've been immensely respectful about this issue throughout. But a lot of those issues are true the world over. The difference is that guns are tightly regulated in a lot of other comparable countries. Hence other countries having lower gun crime than the US. Drugs, an issue in the UK, Canada, Australia etc. Domestic violence ditto. Disaffected young people, mental health, a disparity between affluence and poverty. Again all things that people in comparable countries have to deal with.

The lack of adequate punishment, laws, illegal gun holding are all issues that come up in gun control. The system the US has for reducing gun crime, and making sure guns are used responsibly is obviously not working. But that is never going to change just by shouting "2nd amendment" whenever realistic solutions are suggested, which I have done multiple times during this discussion.

 

[Blef]

It’s very simple really. Law abiding Americans feel that if they turn in their guns, it will be a gun-toting holiday for criminals who operate off the grid & possess their guns illegally. These criminals do not pay taxes, they do not care about gun registries, and they find ways to commit crimes while armed to get what they want. That is their lifestyle and it is unlikely to change.

These hardened criminals would love to commit gun crimes on “soft targets”....aka those that are unarmed.

I’m sure most law-abiding Americans fear giving up their guns because they don’t want to become victims to gun-toting criminals or violent crazy &/or crazed druggies on meth.

You are equating gun control with gun prohibition. At the risk of repeating what I've said over and over again, they are not the same!

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

You are equating gun control with gun prohibition. At the risk of repeating what I've said over and over again, they are not the same!

But blef......I was responding to a poster refencing **gun prohibition** (about guns in households). Just sayin’....

 

[bluesneakers]

It’s very simple really. Law abiding Americans feel that if they turn in their guns, it will be a gun-toting holiday for criminals who operate off the grid & possess their guns illegally. These criminals do not pay taxes, they do not care about gun registries, and they find ways to commit crimes while armed to get what they want. That is their lifestyle and it is unlikely to change.

These hardened criminals would love to commit gun crimes on “soft targets”....aka those that are unarmed.

I’m sure most law-abiding Americans fear giving up their guns because they don’t want to become victims to gun-toting criminals or violent crazy &/or crazed druggies on meth.

Who said anything about turning in guns? I'm talking about the way many US gun owners ignore facts and prefer to stick with their feelings. Many of them can not have a rational discussion about gun laws because their feelings are so overpowering they squash out any chance of science entering the picture. Willful ignorance, IMO, and it puts people's lives in danger.

 

[bluesneakers]

But blef......I was responding to a poster refencing **gun prohibition** (about guns in households). Just sayin’....

I didn't say a word about "gun prohibition" in my comment.

 

[Blef]

But blef......I was responding to a poster refencing **gun prohibition** (about guns in households). Just sayin’....

Sorry then. I apologise. I thought you were responding to me.

I'm just trying to give an outside perspective on what the US looks like. There is obviously a gun problem, whether these guns are held legally or not. I don't feel that anyone who is a responsible gun owner needs to give them up. I have to say I don't understand the desire to have a gun, but I have been honest about that all the way through. I live in a country now where the police are armed (which is still fairly new to me) and people are allowed to hold guns. The procedure here is way tighter just to get a gun. And gun crime is much lower. Hence I feel safe walking around here, as most people don't carry guns. The times I've been in the US, I'll be honest, I'm scared. I don't know if the dude across from me has a gun, and if he/she has it legally, and isn't going to just shoot someone. I've been in the US when a person was shot to death a half mile from where I was (legally held gun, husband shot his wife after an argument). It scared me senseless.