Gun Control Debate #4

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

But you don't live in one of those cities with mandatory gun ownership, right? My point was if you live in one of those towns and choose not to own/carry your neighbors will know. I would be afraid to be in that situation.

But it is just not possible to do that where I live. People would go crazy if you tried to enforce it. There would even be... casualties, which I agree is quite counter productive.

 

[flourish]

My point is ------- around me, if someone is armed, s/he is 1) a cop or similar; 2) a cop or similar in civvies; 3) a terrorist.

Should something go wrong, my survival odds are decent.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying where you live now the only people with guns are the three you mentioned? And you wouldn't be comfortable being required to carry. But you would fall in the category of conscientious objector. But then the people in your community would probably know you were the only person who wasn't armed so then you wouldn't necessarily be any safer probably less so?

I'm not sure why but I'm confused lol

 

[Jennifer17]

But you don't live in one of those cities with mandatory gun ownership, right? My point was if you live in one of those towns and choose not to own/carry your neighbors will know. I would be afraid to be in that situation.

That is so outside of my experience, I could not even imagine what I would feel.

 

[bluesneakers]

But it is just not possible to do that where I live. People would go crazy if you tried to enforce it. There would even be... casualties, which I agree is quite counter productive.

Uhhhh, okay.

:dunno:

 

[Jennifer17]

I would think that if you had an aversion to gun ownership and really did not want to be forced to own a gun, you just would not live there.

 

[bluesneakers]

I would think that if you had an aversion to gun ownership and really did not want to be forced to own a gun, you just would not live there.

Maybe. But people choose where they live based on many reasons. You might not like the gun law, but your job is there, or your family is there, you lived there before the law and can't afford to move, or whatever. Any reason. I was just wondering what it might feel like to be a non-gun owner in a town of gun owners. I'm sure they exist.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying where you live now the only people with guns are the three you mentioned? And you wouldn't be comfortable being required to carry. But you would fall in the category of conscientious objector. But then the people in your community would probably know you were the only person who wasn't armed so then you wouldn't necessarily be any safer probably less so?

I'm not sure why but I'm confused lol

Why should I want a gun? To simplifly things, people around me who have guns are 1) professionals, or 2) possible terrorists.

Adding more guns just adds to the danger.

If I want a gun I can easily get one by getting a membership in a shooting club (that's mainly for hand guns) or just buying and registering a hunting riffle. But I just don't want it.

 

[Tricia]

Hey Everyone,

I'm shutting down this thread for a bit so you can all reboot and when I open it back up you all can get back to talking gun control.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

Maybe. But people choose where they live based on many reasons. You might not like the gun law, but your job is there, or your family is there, you lived there before the law and can't afford to move, or whatever. Any reason. I was just wondering what it might feel like to be a non-gun owner in a town of gun owners. I'm sure they exist.

But everyone owning a gun is very dangerous. What about road rage incidents, neighbors making noise late when someone needs to get up early, frustrated guys who can't take no for an answer, DV, legally blind people?

 

[MaryG12]

But everyone owning a gun is very dangerous. What about road rage incidents, neighbors making noise late when someone needs to get up early, frustrated guys who can't take no for an answer, DV, legally blind people?

To quote the sci-fi writer Robert A Heinlein, "An armed society is a polite society."

Perhaps what is missing in America is a sense of mindfulness.

Perhaps in our selfie-driven world we lack awareness of our surroundings, our reactions.

One cannot control another person's behavior but one can control one's reactions to someone.

MOO

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

A great podcast in general, and specifically this one on gun rights.

NPR’s Radiolab presents “More Perfect,” a podcast series examining Supreme Court decisions.

This one’s called The Gun Show.

“For nearly 200 years of our nation’s history, the Second Amendment was an all-but-forgotten rule about the importance of militias. But in the 1960s and 70s, a movement emerged —*led by Black Panthers and a recently-repositioned NRA —*that insisted owning a firearm was the right of each and every American. So began a constitutional debate that only the Supreme Court could solve. That didn’t happen until 2008, when a Washington, D.C. security guard named Dick Heller made a compelling case.”

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/radiolab-presents-more-perfect/id1117202653?mt=2&i=1000393447299

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

To quote the sci-fi writer Robert A Heinlein, "An armed society is a polite society."

Perhaps what is missing in America is a sense of mindfulness.

Perhaps in our selfie-driven world we lack awareness of our surroundings, our reactions.

One cannot control another person's behavior but one can control one's reactions to someone.

MOO

BBM

A society walking on egg-shells? Women wondering if saying "no" will get them shoot? Professors afraid of giving a pupil a bad mark?

 

[Elley Mae]

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/02/f...during-obamas-entire-presidency-508-to-424-2/

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/02/f...during-obamas-entire-presidency-508-to-424-2/

The whole site seems biased in favor of gun ownership.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/02/f...during-obamas-entire-presidency-508-to-424-2/

About this site:

https://thinkprogress.org/debunking-john-lott-5456e83cf326/

But Lott’s recent successes belie a far more shadowy past. A little over a decade ago, he was disgraced and his career was in tatters. Not only was Lott’s assertion that more guns leads to more safety formally repudiated by a National Research Council panel, but he had also been caught pushing studies with severe statistical errors on numerous occasions. An investigation uncovered that he had almost certainly fabricated an entire survey on defensive gun use.

Perhaps unaware of Lott’s previous transgressions, or believing he had turned a new page by founding the Crime Prevention Research Center (CPRC), many in the media who were desperate for an authoritative, pro-gun academic voice seized on Lott’s credentials and provided him with a new platform.

However, the media’s newfound faith in John Lott is deeply misguided. Rather than turn a new page, Lott has instead returned to his old playbook and used his platform to deceive the public.

 

[flourish]

Yep, that site is considered to have a very far right bias

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/crime-prevention-research-center/

 

[rosemadderlake]

THE GREAT DEPRESSION STATISTICS

Average Rate of Death by Suicide (per 100,000 Population)
1920–1928: 12.1
1929: 18.1
1930–1940: 15.4

The Great Crash of 1929, which suddenly brought economic ruin to thousands of people accustomed to a decade of prosperity, caused an immediate and dramatic spike in suicides. Suicide rates, which averaged 12.1 per 100,000 people in the decade prior to the Depression, jumped to an alarming 18.9 in the year of Wall Street's crash. The suicide rate remained higher than normal throughout the remainder of the Great Depression, then fell sharply during World War II.11
https://www.shmoop.com/great-depression/statistics.html


Suicide and The Economy

On April 12, 1937, the express train to New York roared across the New Jersey countryside. The train, a Pennsy Railroad electric locomotive the color of bull’s blood, usually passed through the station at Elizabeth at about 50 miles per hour. On this particular morning, it came to an unanticipated stop. As the express rounded the curve, my great-grandfather jumped down from the platform, where witnesses reported he had been pacing for 10 minutes, and lay down across the tracks.

Detailed studies of individual cases, or “psychological autopsies,” might help researchers draw conclusions about causes, but autopsies have not been done in large enough volume. So correlations are the best we can do, but they need to be as specific as possible. Suicide is not strongly correlated to the economy, but to unemployment. In the modern era, for every 1 percent increase in the unemployment rate, there has typically been an increase of about 1 percent in the number of suicides, according to Steve Stack, a professor at Wayne State University.

Men still, more than women, define their self-worth by how much money they make and their occupations. That partly goes to explain why the suicide rate is three times higher among men than women.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/09/suicide-and-the-economy/279961/


US Gun Deaths, 1999-2015
Suicides, Homicides, Unintentional Deaths, Legal Intervention Deaths, Deaths from Undetermined Consequences
https://gun-control.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=006094

---
Suicide rates correlate to the economy. The statistics from the 30's bear that out.

On this chart one can see the suicide by gun increase beginning 2008, after the worst economic hit since the Great Depression. This may also correlate with the explosion of gun purchases during this period? -The other standout is the increase in suicides by gun in the 10-14 age group. Quite startling. Imo

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

yep, that site is considered to have a very far right bias

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/crime-prevention-research-center/

bbm:

[font=&quot]notes: The crime prevention research center is a nonprofit founded in 2013 by john lott, author of the book “more guns, less crime.” he is best known as an advocate[/font][font=&quot] [/font][font=&quot]in the gun rights debate, particularly his arguments against restrictions on owning and carrying guns. Lott’s work has been called “[/font]junk science[font=&quot]” as he has been accused of [/font]accepting funding[font=&quot] from the national rifle association. Lott denies this claim. any claims made on this website need to be fact checked with credible sources. (9/2/2016) updated (4/5/2017)[/font]

....

 

[flourish]

There’s no other such right anywhere in the Constitution. To prove that the Second Amendment transcends all others, the proof would have to be damned strong. I haven’t seen it yet.

https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/555101/



(The Atlantic is considered to have a left centre bias with high factual reporting
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-atlantic/ )

*

 

[Bernina]

Ugh I so much hate that phrase, too. Like, oh yeah the grief of a murdered child is a "temporary problem?" Pain and agony from terminal (but not quick) illness is a "temporary problem?" Or when people talk about how "selfish" it is. I can't necessarily argue with that! However, has saying that EVER been helpful in the history of people? I doubt it!

While I'm ranting, it reminds me also of the "it could be worse," or worse (lol) "so and so have it worse." Because guess what? If we did some kind of insane research project putting a value to "worse," then really doesn't it come down to one person on Earth who is like, The Champion of Having it Bad? And what then? A big bruha and nobody but that person is ever allowed to complain again? Ugh whatever!




I feel like people who say that (permanent solution...) are usually referring to teenagers. I like the "it gets better" approach better...it seems less dismissive and judgemental.

I tend to say "It doesn't (necessarily) get better, it gets different". :heartbeat: