Gun Control Debate #4

[rsd1200]

Looking around a bit.. unemployment was down, wages were up, home sales were starting to go up again, GDP per person was on its way back up.

I found this interesting. Seems drugs and large cities, and likely poverty, have something to do with it.

The country’s murder rate jumped more last year than it had in nearly half a century, newly released federal crime data showed, although the number of homicides remained far below the levels of the 1980s and ’90s.

Fueling the surge in murders was street violence in a handful of major cities, notably Baltimore, Chicago, St. Louis, Washington, D.C., and Milwaukee, where most of the victims were young African-American males. The F.B.I. reported that guns were used in nearly three-quarters of the nation’s 15,696 murders during 2015.

Police officials and criminologists say there is no single explanation for the increase nationally, but point to disputes that more often end in gun violence and turf battles over a growing, and highly profitable, heroin trade.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/27/us/murder-crime-fbi.html


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[EuTuCroquet?]

My reply was to a previous poster that asked me what is the point i was making in my post when i asked about mass shootings/school shootings a few decades ago, and in what other posters replied with links, it looks like nothing has changed in that regard. Just the weapons it seems have changed where access to weapons that can shoot a lot more people at a faster rate and to do more damage with those particular weapons.
And as far as pain goes, human beings have always lived with pain & suffering in this physical life. It is after all everyone's destiny to die at some point, and our human condition in a physical body.

Yes, I’m aware.

I, too, shared my opinion. And I agree. It is frustrating that little seems to have changed in the almost 20 years since Columbine.

There’s no need to inflict additional pain and suffering on the innocents our society should be protecting. Our Creator’s Ten Commandments didn’t decree “Thou shalt not murder, unless dude legally bought that sweet-arse AR-15.”

That ain’t the will of god, imo.

It’s negligence. It’s actually worse than negligence, imho.

The second amendment doesn’t give Americans the right to slaughter innocents en masse or buy, own or use any weapon we please. SCOTUS affirmed as much in 2008.

If he feds won’t do it, states can and will. They’re doing it right now. [emoji106]

The people are speaking up. And I thank the kids for screaming at the tops of their voices — they’re unwilling to be “collateral damage” in the gun violence war.

Thank you, Karinna

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

A 2013 study by the US National Library of Medicine/National Institutes of Health

The Relationship Between Gun Ownership and Firearm Homicide Rates in the United States, 1981–2010

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828709/

We examined the relationship between levels of household firearm ownership, as measured directly and by a proxy — the percentage of suicides committed with a firearm — and age-adjusted firearm homicide rates at the state level.

We observed a robust correlation between higher levels of gun ownership and higher firearm homicide rates. Although we could not determine causation, we found that states with higher rates of gun ownership had disproportionately large numbers of deaths from firearm-related homicides.

 

[bluesneakers]

A 2013 study by the US National Library of Medicine/National Institutes of Health

The Relationship Between Gun Ownership and Firearm Homicide Rates in the United States, 1981–2010

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828709/

But, IMO, too many people think "It can't happen to me." They are all the exceptions, the responsible gun owners who will only use their guns in a life or death situation to protect themselves.

To me this says it all, and anyone who wants a gun should have to study it.

We observed a robust correlation between higher levels of gun ownership and higher firearm homicide rates. Although we could not determine causation, we found that states with higher rates of gun ownership had disproportionately large numbers of deaths from firearm-related homicides.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Washington DC, to stem its gun violence epidemic decades ago, banned handguns (and some other weapons). It went all the way to the US supreme court, was mostly struck down, and DC vs. Heller was born.

So, in this instance, cities and states can enact some regulations and enforce the laws, but it's highly unlikely they'll be able to do what it took to stem DC's violence back when it enacted its law in 1975. (It's a good read, btw, if there's anyone here who hasn't read it already.)

IMO.

I found this interesting. Seems drugs and large cities, and likely poverty, have something to do with it.

The country’s murder rate jumped more last year than it had in nearly half a century, newly released federal crime data showed, although the number of homicides remained far below the levels of the 1980s and ’90s.

Fueling the surge in murders was street violence in a handful of major cities, notably Baltimore, Chicago, St. Louis, Washington, D.C., and Milwaukee, where most of the victims were young African-American males. The F.B.I. reported that guns were used in nearly three-quarters of the nation’s 15,696 murders during 2015.

Police officials and criminologists say there is no single explanation for the increase nationally, but point to disputes that more often end in gun violence and turf battles over a growing, and highly profitable, heroin trade.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/27/us/murder-crime-fbi.html


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[Elley Mae]

The number of robberies of federal firearms licensees reported to the ATF have increased 227 percent since 2013 and burglaries of such gun purveyors are up 71 percent over that same period.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-19/gun-theft-is-sweeping-america

 

[Karinna]

Yes, I’m aware.

I, too, shared my opinion. And I agree. It is frustrating that little seems to have changed in the almost 20 years since Columbine.

There’s no need to inflict additional pain and suffering on the innocents our society should be protecting. Our Creator’s Ten Commandments didn’t decree “Thou shalt not murder, unless dude legally bought that sweet-arse AR-15.”

That ain’t the will of god, imo.

It’s negligence. It’s actually worse than negligence, imho.

The second amendment doesn’t give Americans the right to slaughter innocents en masse or buy, own or use any weapon we please. SCOTUS affirmed as much in 2008.

If he feds won’t do it, states can and will. They’re doing it right now. [emoji106]

The people are speaking up. And I thank the kids for screaming at the tops of their voices — they’re unwilling to be “collateral damage” in the gun violence war.

Thank you, Karinna

And Thankyou too Et Tu Croquet. I agree with what you say, and No, killing each other never solved a thing, in fact it shows such huge disregard for other people that are supposed to be our human family here. We are supposed to evolve as a species, and reach for the stars instead of creating such untold misery upon each other. Maybe one day we will all get it, one can only hope and make this a much better place to be, seeing as we all have to be here. It's wonderful the kids are demanding better, as we all should, and i pray for their futures whatever country they reside on the globe.

 

[bluesneakers]

The number of robberies of federal firearms licensees reported to the ATF have increased 227 percent since 2013 and burglaries of such gun purveyors are up 71 percent over that same period.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-19/gun-theft-is-sweeping-america

Why aren't the states requiring gun dealers to do more to prevent burglaries?

Firearm theft from licensed retailers including gun stores is becoming increasingly common, according to data released by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives this week
...
Criminals know that gun stores can be easy targets to obtain armfuls of firearms in a matter of minutes.
...
Chipman, a former ATF special agent, added that “when states require gun dealers to take responsible steps to prevent their stores from being burglarized—by properly securing not only their stores, but the firearms themselves—they eliminate the risk of thieves taking off with weapons. We know how to solve this problem, but we need more states to acknowledge this issue and put best practices for reducing gun store theft into action.”

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I can only imagine how parents of the time cringed at the fame of Elvis, then the Beatles. And John Lennon, making a self-effacing joke, mumbling the band is bigger than god. AND PARENTS BURNED THE FAB FOUR IN EFFIGY.

LOL. Okay. I'm having a little fun. Because there's always been scandal and violence. Yes, somewhat less divorce, but more miserable, abusive, loveless homes, in my opinion. But there also wasn't easy access to as many guns, especially "combat-like" rifles.

I found this interesting. The divorce rates have mostly been in decline since their first, very sharp spike in the — wait for it — late '40s (which never recovered) and then took flight through the 70s. (Speculation: A seemingly endless war? Recession? Economic upheaval? Nixon and Watergate? Cold War? Olympics terror attack? Energy crisis?)

It's been slowly declining since then, although marriage rates have fallen, too.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...d-states-in-one-chart/?utm_term=.23b77541888d

Interesting read.

Just jumping off your post — not directing this at Karinna! I don't think it's fair or accurate to attribute "causation" of gun violence to single-parent homes. If it is a root contributor, then everybody complaining about it must get off their hineys and be the change. Extended families, neighborhoods, strangers, friends, communities, etc.

All this blame and finger-pointing, imho. "Not my fault!" We're capable of better.

MOO, IMO, etc.

No they were anti War protests and a time of revolution more of a sexual revolution, peace & love revolution, The Make love, Not war era.
The hippie movement, sex, drugs & rock n roll etc. Protest songs big time, which i think are still relevant today too.
But also at that time the family dynamic was different as well, and most kids still had a mother and father unlike with the high divorce rates & all the single parent families we have nowadays.
But now we really have more or less the same, but a more violent culture, and still the endless wars that go on orchestrated by Govt.'s. What awful mixed confusing messages kids are getting. The music scene & entertainment industry promotes violence big time, and kids want to be cool so emulate all the nonsense they absorb it like a sponge. The more outrageous the better, and impressionable kids love it.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Yes! The robbery and burglary of legally owned firearms fuels the criminal trade. It's kinda nauseating, tbh.

This could be lessened/prevented with better security methods, from safes to removing guns from large in-store displays (they're insured, so gun stores aren't in a super big hurry to overprotect those weapons, MOO), etc. etc. etc.

Law-abiding Americans contribute up to 600,000 firearms to the illegal market every year. This is something we can help change, individually, if we choose. We aren't powerless. We can do better to secure and protect our stuff.

Up to 600,000 guns are stolen every year in the US – that's one every minute
Data shows thefts of firearms from vehicles are rising in many large cities. One gun swiped from a truck in Atlanta was used in three crimes, including murder

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/21/gun-theft-us-firearm-survey

The number of robberies of federal firearms licensees reported to the ATF have increased 227 percent since 2013 and burglaries of such gun purveyors are up 71 percent over that same period.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-19/gun-theft-is-sweeping-america

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

100 percent this :heartbeat:

Why aren't the states requiring gun dealers to do more to prevent burglaries?

 

[bluesneakers]

100 percent this :heartbeat:

More on the subject..

Stolen Guns in America

According to data from the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), during the four-year period from 2012 to 2015, nearly half a billion dollars worth of guns were stolen from individuals nationwide, amounting to an estimated 1.2 million guns. Twenty-two thousand guns were stolen from gun stores during this same period.4 A gun is stolen in the U.S. every two minutes.

This problem does not affect all states equally. The rate and volume of guns stolen from both gun stores and private collections vary widely from state to state.

From 2012 through 2015, the average rate of the five states with the highest rates of gun theft from private owners—Tennessee, Arkansas, South Carolina, Oklahoma, and Alabama—was 13 times higher than the average rate of the five states with the lowest rates—Hawaii, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, and Massachusetts

Between 2012 and 2016, burglaries of licensed gun dealers increased 48 percent, and robberies of licensed gun dealers increased 175 percent. During this period, nearly 31,500 guns were stolen from gun stores nationwide.

However, these thefts are not evenly distributed across the country. Thefts from gun stores are more prevalent in the South, with seven of the 10 states with the highest number of firearms stolen from gun dealers located in the southern region of the United States. Some states also experienced a sharp increase in the number of guns stolen from dealers in 2016.

These thefts increased 122 percent in Georgia from 2015 to 2016, from 515 guns to 1,144 guns. California and South Carolina saw a 174 percent increase and a 383 percent increase, respectively, during the same period

This study identified a few common traits of gun owners who are victimized by theft: Those who own many guns, those who regularly carry their guns outside their homes, and those who do not employ safe storage practices while at home face a higher risk of gun theft.

Gun owners and dealers have a substantial responsibility to take reasonable measures to protect against theft and help ensure that their guns do not become part of this illegal inventory.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Your parents were too old. They were over thirty

How times have changed. The “Never trust anyone over 30” phrase, these days, is closer to 40. Take *that,* Generation Gap! [emoji6][emoji854]

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Yes! The robbery and burglary of legally owned firearms fuels the criminal trade. It's kinda nauseating, tbh.

This could be lessened/prevented with better security methods, from safes to removing guns from large in-store displays (they're insured, so gun stores aren't in a super big hurry to overprotect those weapons, MOO), etc. etc. etc.

Law-abiding Americans contribute up to 600,000 firearms to the illegal market every year. This is something we can help change, individually, if we choose. We aren't powerless. We can do better to secure and protect our stuff.

Up to 600,000 guns are stolen every year in the US – that's one every minute
Data shows thefts of firearms from vehicles are rising in many large cities. One gun swiped from a truck in Atlanta was used in three crimes, including murder

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/21/gun-theft-us-firearm-survey

Let's not forget the gun walking by our own government.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...obama-era-operation-fast-and-furious.amp.html

The Obama-era operation was a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) operation in which the federal government allowed criminals to buy guns in Phoenix-area shops with the intention of tracking them as they were transported into Mexico. But the agency lost track of more than 1,400 of the 2,000 guns they allowed smugglers to buy.

 

[bluesneakers]

How times have changed. The “Never trust anyone over 30” phrase, these days, is closer to 40. Take *that,* Generation Gap! [emoji6][emoji854]

Gen X: We don't trust anyone.

 

[rsd1200]

Washington DC, to stem its gun violence epidemic decades ago, banned handguns (and some other weapons). It went all the way to the US supreme court, was mostly struck down, and DC vs. Heller was born.

So, in this instance, cities and states can enact some regulations and enforce the laws, but it's highly unlikely they'll be able to do what it took to stem DC's violence back when it enacted its law in 1975. (It's a good read, btw, if there's anyone here who hasn't read it already.)

IMO.

Agree, states can, and should, step up to the plate, but, I posted this earlier in the thread, unless the states, bordering the states with stricter firearm laws, step up to the plate, or Congress grows some, and makes uniform laws, this is still going to happen:
_____
Soon after the tragic mass shooting in Las Vegas, the White House batted down the idea of enacting more gun control with the argument that many cities with strict gun laws have high murder rates. The White House specifically pointed to Chicago and Baltimore as “some of America’s cities with the strictest gun laws” coupled with “the highest rates of gun violence.”

An analysis of data from 107 pairs of bordering states2 throughout the country shows a relationship between the strictness of a state’s gun laws relative to its neighbor and the number of firearms recovered3 from that neighbor.4

Chicago is close to the borders of two states — Wisconsin and Indiana — that have weak gun laws. A 2014 report from the city of Chicago noted that 60 percent of guns used to commit crimes in Chicago from 2009 to 2013 originated outside of Illinois, and Indiana and Wisconsin were two of the biggest sources of recovered guns.5 And Illinois is not alone.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-laws-stop-at-state-lines-but-guns-dont/

FWIW, I'd already heard that this is going in on my state. Firearms go out, drugs/cash, come back. That's the entire extent of my knowledge about it, too. Period.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Let's not forget the gun walking by our own government.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...obama-era-operation-fast-and-furious.amp.html

The Obama-era operation was a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) operation in which the federal government allowed criminals to buy guns in Phoenix-area shops with the intention of tracking them as they were transported into Mexico. But the agency lost track of more than 1,400 of the 2,000 guns they allowed smugglers to buy.

Absolutely right you are, Belle. And we can stop a lot of it if we want to.


Trump looks to loosen restrictions on arm sales overseas; boost sales of firearms to foreign governments
http://www.newsweek.com/trump-looks-loosen-restrictions-arms-sales-boost-business-overseas-773852

The American Gun Glut Is a Problem for the Entire World
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...n-glut-is-a-problem-for-the-entire-world.html

From the article:

The point here is not that the AR-15 is a uniquely evil gun (it isn’t), but that while President Donald Trump demagogues about Mexican immigrants bringing drugs and crime across the border into the U.S., tens of thousands of American guns are making that journey in the opposite direction, often illegally and often destined for the people operating and profiting from the Mexican drug trade.

Mexico’s gun laws are extremely restrictive, but the proximity of the U.S. and the lack of regulation here make them relatively easy to smuggle into the country. As arms trafficking experts Sarah Kinosian and Eugenio Weigend wrote in a Los Angeles Times op-ed last year, Mexican criminals tend to get their hands on U.S. weapons the same way American criminals do: through straw purchases, in which one person buys a gun legally and sells it or hands it off illegally.

 

[rsd1200]

The ATF and FBI seem to be understaffed.

“The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives remains incredibly understaffed, with fewer agents than the Broward County sheriff’s office,” Chipman told ThinkProgress in an email. “Instead of spending valuable ATF resources on recovering weapons from prohibited individuals, Congress should give our federal law enforcement agencies the resources and tools they need to proactively stop these dangerous individuals from getting guns in the first place.”

Despite the technology upgrades, the FBI has largely relied on “significant amounts of overtime” to keep up with the growing number of gun background checks, according to its FY 2018 budget request to Congress. To fix that, the agency is requesting $8.9 million to keep 85 full-time examiners.

Also from the link, Dylan Roof got his firearm at age 21, legally, through a loophole. He admitted to a drug charge, but his background check didn't come back within three days, so he was permitted to purchase.

https://thinkprogress.org/exclusive...-before-completing-a-background-9d380d53aa1d/

 

[rsd1200]

2017

“Recently, ATF has discovered that some law enforcement officers who do not have an FFL are purchasing ‘off roster” firearms … and reselling those firearms to non-law enforcement entities for a profit,” Harden wrote.
That amounts to a violation of federal law of selling firearms without a federal license, the memo said.

“There is no extra consideration,” she said. “We believe the most effective way to stop the behavior is to educate law enforcement in what the laws are and aren’t.” ( I'd kinda think they'd know that already.)




http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/public-safety/sd-me-atf-memo-20170412-story.html

 

[Jennifer17]

I think that it is a terrible shame that this has become politicized. When good people cannot admit that there is a problem, because that would be ceding to the 'other side' is a whole other problem in itself.