Gun Control Debate #6

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

And also from your article you posted
(quote)
Globally, the US sees fewer gun-related murders than many of its southern neighbors.
According to the Small Arms Survey, El Salvador is currently home to the most gun-related murders in the world (excluding active war-zones) with guns killing more than 90 people for every 100,000 of population.
From 2010-2015, Honduras saw the highest averages of gun-related homicides, with guns killing 67 out of every 100,000 people there.
Venezuela and El Salvador are close behind over the same five-year period, with 52 and 49 gun-related deaths, respectively, for every 100,000 of population.
The US rate over that period is 4.5 gun-related homicides per 100,000 people.

These countries are rife with crime, drug cartels, corruption and so on. JMO, you should not look up to them. What explains the difference in gun-related death between the US and similar countries?

 

[rosemadderlake]

Vets' History: Operation "Dewey Canyon III"

By VVAW

In April of 1971 the war was raging in Indochina. The vast majority of American were sick and tired of it and wanted the war to end. Thousands and thousands were actively demonstrating their opposition to the war as the US government was losing more and more support for its Vietnam policies.

Soldiers in Vietnam were refusing to go on combat missions. At home, veterans formed a national organization, Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). It was in April of 1971 that VVAW held its first national demonstration to protest the war in Vietnam. The demonstration was named "Operation Dewey Canyon III" (Dewey Canyon I and II were secret operations into Laos that were never reported to the American people). It was held in Washington DC from April 18th to April 23rd, and was the most powerful antiwar demonstration held up to that time; it sparked off a series of major demonstrations that made it clear that the American people wanted the US out of Indochina.

From Vietnam Veterans Against the War, http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=1656


---

BBM: Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) 1971. --A defining moment in a long, ten year battle of war abroad and major resistance at home.

Much has been written in reflection but if you look at the politics, at all the social change, this country elected the conservative Nixon overwhelmingly.

So, while our youth gathering by the millions in demonstration across America is surely not pointless (as some have said) because whether or not it emboldens a new electorate, emboldens change, remains to be seen, but a word of caution because it also emboldens everyone on two sides of an issue.

The advantage of youth is spirit, the advantage of age is patience. The complexity of addressing gun violence vs the second amendment in America is going to require both. And 'government moves like an ocean liner, not a speedboat', to quote a wise former president.

Are kids in it for the long haul? They appear very focused. And their loss is personal. What is spectacular is their movement, moved the Florida legislature, moved corporations, brought it to the national stage, and put politicians invested in one lobby on notice. They've done more in two months than at anytime since the assault weapon ban was quietly expired in 2004. -jmo

 

[Karinna]

These countries are rife with crime, drug cartels, corruption and so on. JMO, you should not look up to them. What explains the difference in gun-related death between the US and similar countries?

There is no other country similar to the United States IMO.
And do you not think the U.S. is also not rife with crime, drugs, & corruption? What about all the drug/gang activity there? What about all the corruption in Govt. scandals over the years, etc.? What about all the LE shootings of innocent citizens, etc.? America has a huge crime rate.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

There is no other country similar to the United States IMO.
And do you not think the U.S. is also not rife with crime, drugs, & corruption? What about all the drug/gang activity there? What about all the corruption in Govt. scandals over the years, etc.? What about all the LE shootings of innocent citizens, etc.? America has a huge crime rate.

I strongly suspect that the US are no more corrupt than, say, France.

 

[Woodland]

Have you found any other information that you think is more accurate? There are variables in the different stats. that are posted online that i have found.

No I have not seen anything at all - apparently the US has never found it prudent to track this info. If someone has finally done so, looking forward to reading it - will it be in depth, meaningful, have some credible accuracy? We'll see.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Remington: Oldest US gunmaker files for bankruptcy

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43540708

The firm, founded more than 200 years ago, filed for bankruptcy protection to cut a deal with its creditors.

Remington's chief financial officer said the company's sales dropped significantly in the year before its bankruptcy, court papers show.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Remington Files for Bankruptcy Amid a 'Trump Slump' in Gun Sales

http://time.com/5215326/remington-gun-company-bankruptcy/

The chapter 11 filing in Delaware bankruptcy court Sunday comes with a revised plan to eliminate $620 million in debt, pay most creditors in full, and hand over most of the company to a group of lenders.

Remington, which makes weapons for military, law enforcement, and hunting customers, had already outlined a plan on Feb. 12 to file for bankruptcy and give control to lenders including Franklin Resources Inc. and JPMorgan Asset Management.

(snip)

After the Sandy Hook shooting, Cerberus announced it would sell the company, as its own agitated investors demanded an exit, but it failed to find a buyer.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Full-page ad confronts Minnesota's congressional delegation on gun control, NRA donations

The ad comes two days after thousands of students marched for stricter gun control measures.

http://www.startribune.com/star-tri...ation-on-gun-control-nra-donations/477939703/

A full-page ad in Monday’s Star Tribune called out Minnesota’s congressional delegation on gun control measures and accepting NRA donations.

The ad, from a group calling itself Listen to the Children, asked the Washington policymakers if they would introduce, cosponsor or vote for legislation to ban the manufacture and sale of high-capacity magazines for firearms, and if they would return any donation from the NRA and its affiliates and refuse to accept future NRA donations.

The ad said the politicians’ answers will be printed in the Star Tribune in one week and those who don’t send answers will be considered responding “no” to the questions.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Schools, Research & Gun Safety: Minn. Dems Unveil Gun Violence Plan

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2018/03/26/democratic-senators-gun-control-plan/

Unveiled on Monday, the comprehensive plan includes 14 pieces of legislation that address school safety and security, public health research and gun safety measures.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Op-Ed: Gun Violence Is a Reproductive Health Issue
"We must center the rights of parents to raise their children safely — and the rights of young people to be safe."

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/gun-violence-is-a-reproductive-health-issue

According to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, every year, almost 3,000 American children and teens die from gun violence.

More than 17,000 children and teens are shot in murders, assaults, suicide attempts, unintentional shootings, or by police intervention each year.

Children of color and their communities are disproportionately affected by gun violence.

Parents should never have to fear that their children will lose their lives to senseless gun violence.

But right now, countless parents nationwide must think about this threat to their children’s safety every day, and in their schools no less.

This violates their fundamental right to raise their children in a safe and healthy environment, and it violates our right to live in one.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

They are not really that different, only the number of people that die varies.

The problem is really violence and why people choose it over love & understanding? Why have we as a collective never solved these problems, in America and abroad?

Rsff

Yes, many more die from gun violence than, say, stabbings.

Because people disagree. If we all agreed on everything, we wouldn’t be individuals with free will.

Having a lethal weapon handy just increases the odds that a disagreement will turn into violence.

MOO

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

My reply was to a previous poster that posted up the article upthread about kids learning CPR.

CPR won’t save a classmate that’s bled out. Or who has an exploded lung or liver caused by gunfire from a semiauto military-style rifle.

Entire trauma teams are needed. This isn’t a video game we’re talking about.

IMO

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

And also from your article you posted
(quote)
Globally, the US sees fewer gun-related murders than many of its southern neighbors.
According to the Small Arms Survey, El Salvador is currently home to the most gun-related murders in the world (excluding active war-zones) with guns killing more than 90 people for every 100,000 of population.
From 2010-2015, Honduras saw the highest averages of gun-related homicides, with guns killing 67 out of every 100,000 people there.
Venezuela and El Salvador are close behind over the same five-year period, with 52 and 49 gun-related deaths, respectively, for every 100,000 of population.
The US rate over that period is 4.5 gun-related homicides per 100,000 people.

Guess where a lot of those guns come from.

America. Imagine that.

https://www.cfr.org/report/strategy-reduce-gun-trafficking-and-violence-americas

The flow of high-powered weaponry from the United States to Latin America and the Caribbean exacerbates soaring rates of gun-related violence in the region and undermines U.S. influence in the Western Hemisphere. Though the Senate rejected measures to expand background checks on firearms sales, reinstate a federal assault-weapons ban, and make straw purchasing a federal crime, the Obama administration can still take executive action to reduce the availability and trafficking of assault weapons and ammunition in the Americas.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

IMO this movement has been misdirected. Going after gun control as thier major platform weekend thier message. If they had included in thier message mental health, and getting illegal guns off the streets I believe they would have a lot more support.

rsff

Mental health was discussed. So was ridding illegal guns from the streets. So was gun reform. Things like universal background checks.

Apparently, not everyone paid attention.

Gun violence is the platform.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2018/mar/24/fact-checking-march-our-lives/

Young people flocked to March for Our Lives rallies in Washington, Parkland, Fla., and many other cities around the nation March 24 to speak out against gun violence.

The rallies occurred about six weeks after the mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland that left 17 dead.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Disgusting, fake propaganda. rbbm

A fake photo of Emma González went viral on the far right, where Parkland teens are villains

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a...illains/ar-BBKGLzk?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=msnsumm_A1

A doctored animation of González tearing the U.S. Constitution in half circulated on social media during the rally, after it was lifted from a Teen Vogue story about teenage activists. In the real image, González is ripping apart a gun-range target.

The doctored image mushrooming across social media appeared to confirm the belief among Second Amendment absolutists that calls for stricter gun-control measures are sacrosanct, destroying the very foundation of the United States. The animation bounced around conservative Twitter before it received a signal boost Saturday from actor Adam Baldwin.

He tweeted to a quarter of a million followers with a hashtag reading “#Vorwärts!,” the German word for “forward” and an apparent reference to the Hitler Youth, whose march song included the word.

“Emma Gonzales, wearing the flag of an authoritarian communist nation. Makes sense, they both hate an armed citizenry,” one meme shared on Reddit’s conservative page r/TheDonald. It was shared on social media through variations of the theme, including one by conservative commentator Andrew Wilkow. González’s father migrated from Cuba to the United States.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

The story behind 11-year-old Naomi Wadler and her March for Our Lives speech

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/t...r-our-lives-speech/ar-BBKHeHb?ocid=msnsumm_A1

The youngest speaker at the March for Our Lives rally Saturday made one of the biggest splashes with an eloquent speech urging the nation not to forget black women, who are disproportionately represented among the victims of gun violence.

Naomi Wadler, an Alexandria fifth-grader, became a hashtag, a meme shared around the world, praised by celebrities who included actress Lupita Nyong’o and comedian Eddie Griffin. The 11-year-old was heralded as future presidential material.

But Wadler hasn’t seen any of that: She’s not on social media.

“I have been accustomed to not Google myself, so I haven’t seen everything,” Wadler said Sunday in a phone interview during her spring break beach trip. “My speech might not have caused a giant impact on society, but I do hope all the black girls and women realize there’s a growing value for them.”

“I am here to acknowledge and represent the African American girls whose stories don’t make the front page of every national newspaper, whose stories don’t lead on the evening news,” Wadler said. “I represent the African American women who are victims of gun violence, who are simply statistics instead of vibrant, beautiful girls full of potential.”

“For far too long, these names, these black girls and women, have been just numbers,” Wadler later said. “I’m here to say ‘Never again’ for those girls too.”

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Students marching to Paul Ryan's hometown for gun reform are getting nationwide attention

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news...eform-getting-nationwide-attention/458974002/

Instead of a fun trip to the beach, some local students are using their spring break for a cause.

About 50 students, including leaders Katie Eder and Brendan Fardella of Shorewood High School, started walking Sunday from Madison to Janesville, the hometown of House Speaker Paul Ryan. The journey is 50 miles and will take four days.

The march ends with a rally in Traxler Park in Janesville on March 28.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

‘God Bless ‘Em’: Pat Robertson Applauds The ‘March For Our Lives’ Gun Reform Effort

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/...ds-the-march-for-our-lives-gun-reform-effort/

In the wake of the mass shooting at a high school in Parkland, Florida, last month, televangelist Pat Robertson voiced his support for a ban on assault weapons, saying that there is no reason why “the general population needs to have automatic weapons” and that a ban on them was “sensible.”

(snip)

While asserting that “gun control is not going to stop the violence” and that “restricting gun purchases is not going to do any good,” Robertson was nevertheless impressed by the effort.

(snip)

“God bless ’em. It’s a good step forward in our democracy.”

 

[Woodland]

Disgusting, fake propaganda. rbbm

A fake photo of Emma González went viral on the far right, where Parkland teens are villains

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a...illains/ar-BBKGLzk?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=msnsumm_A1

I think the Parkland students know nasty things will come their way over this - I also think the adults guiding them will help them overcome and understand the unwanted and fake stories that will accompany their movement.

The students have proved they are smarter than many and have smart guidance - jmo. So who cares what the detractors are putting up on the net - the detractors seem pretty scared of the change about to take place. The detractors have had their way for a long time now - move over for something better and more effective.

All jmo.

 

[kaen]

These kids, IMO, are being horribly exploited and encouraged in a very predatory and misguided way as they process a horrific tragedy by one of their own former classmates.

This new found activism isn't "therapy", but profound denial and a sick exploitation of what the REAL problems are that produced the circumstances for their former classmate to conduct a mass shooting. The adults in their lives, IMO, have failed them miserably. They think they are acting with "laser focus" on what the real problems are, but can't see the forest for the trees.

The adults, the administrators, the governmental authorities, ALL FAILED THESE KIDS with their idiotic leniency and intentional shielding of Nick Cruz. The ADULTS and AUTHORITIES with their negligence and appalling deflection killed the 17 students and teachers at Stoneman Douglas. The gun was just the tool in the hands of an out of control psychopath, who no adult had the balls to confront, remove, and restrain, because of horrifically misguided lenient policies.

None of these deeply misguided teens and activists seem to realize that the weapons that needs to be controlled are the profoundly disturbed STUDENTS and ex-students (like NC) who conduct these awful rampages in schools.

There are no boogymen hiding in the bushes trying to break into schools to shoot kids-- in case after case after case, it is a STUDENT or a FORMER STUDENT that perpetrates these unspeakable atrocities. "Security theater" doesn't fix the problem. More metal detectors doesn't fix the problem. More armed security guards doesn't fix the problem. "Gun control" doesn't fix the problem.

Dealing properly and assertively with disturbed, dangerous students WILL improve the situation.

Stronger doors, more entry buzzers, and stronger glass at the office doors won't stop a determined student shooter.

We HAVE to start calling them STUDENT SHOOTERS to really begin to understand the warped psychology behind what is going on, and get to the root of the problem, to STOP the mayhem.

"Gun control" is just NOT the problem. It is nothing but a huge distraction.

The beauty of a forum like this is the differing opinions that can occur looking at the same situation. I do not find these kids misguided or exploited. In fact, whether the speakers/protestors were a part of the Parkland school or not, those who are speaking out have a valid perspective.

I agree that all of those with power to stop the shooter did little and should be accountable. But, I would go further than you and say that lawmakers up the chain also failed by pulling funds from the CDC for studies of gun related violence, not creating common sense laws and taking monies from special interest groups.

I think the students and those not connected with the students disagree that the only weapon to be controlled are the shooter and those like him. Access to weapons with bullets that create wounds that make mincemeat out a human's organs with exit wounds that are the size of oranges or grapefruits is also the issue. I think these students at Parkland are no longer "children" and want laws to ensure that future students don't have to lose their innocence in such a senseless way.

All the safeguards that you point out are not going to stop a determined shooter do have merit and should be considered, I will say it---IMO. IF we can create a safe place where students can learn without the fear of being massacred, why wouldn't we do it? I find it interesting that many in this country would like to look exclusively at the shooter or the gun. I believe we need to look at both. We require better mental health services. We require real options to deal with students who are at-risk. AND, we also require limits on semi-automatic guns that can rapidly release bullets and have such devastation that being shot by one almost always insures that the person dies.

I think it is important to note that we are currently talking about schools but these incidents have occurred in movie theaters, shopping malls, on the streets, nightclubs, celebratory luncheons, college campuses and churches. I don't think it makes sense just to call them students. Some of the shooters have had acknowledged mental illnesses and others would not have been identified as having mental illness. Interestingly, they all had access to guns, more often than not many guns. In my book, they are human beings with high powered weaponry loose in our communities.

As you stated, humans are the problem. But, I think that not adding the "with a gun" to the description only tells half the story and brings about a remedy that doesn't address the full force of the problem.