Harley in the Hangar: Chop Shop?

[Carli]

Re extra charges and single trial. I don't know (and don't care lots) about how all that would boil down, but I think that indictable and summary offences have completely different guidelines - all the way from whether or not a jury is sworn in to what basically amounts to very little more than a roadside ticket and a "He said. He said" contest which might, or might not, be settled when Marty the bike owner's insurance company hit the witness stand. I don't suppose you can try somebody for an indictable offense with summary offense evidence, "totality of the evidence" notwithstanding.

In any event, it's worth remembering that the threshold required for police to lay charges falls very, very far short of the "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold to find a verdict of guilty. That's in no way to suggest that police investigation is anything less than capable. Only to remind oneself that those findings are uncontested. IMO this is especially important when a case apparently significantly relies on circumstantial evidence . (This may not be true, of course. Time will tell.)

 

[Sillybilly]

On the subject of evidence, can we dig a little further? On another thread someone asked if the witness testimony of 50 people who all state they saw someone defy a "no trespassing" sign should be sufficient to find that person guilty of trespass. I replied no, citing a long winded scenario in which the person ignoring the sign was actually racing to the aid of an injured child. Swedie had by far the most brilliant response, noting that the person was not trespassing because (unknown to the witnesses) he owned the property!

That's just to make another cautionary point. There are facts. And then there are facts. Without point and counterpoint there is no possible way that justice can be properly served. IMO. IMHO.

You may not have noticed but a lot of posts were removed (always for a reason) which means we don't continue to discuss them.

 

[Carli]

I didn't realize that. If it's a problem hopefully everyone will disregard the first paragraph. I had and have no intention of breaking the rules, but simply wanted to share Swedie's funny and clever response to underscore a point - that point being that factual evidence remains subject to contest. In a trial, evidence is presented by the prosecution where its significance may be explained away as irrelevant by the defense. Again, as we all know, the threshold for arrest is far, far lower than the need to present evidence as an indicator of culpability "beyond a reasonable doubt."

 

[Juballee]

For some reason, I thought that the chop shop charges would have bolstered the idea that the murder was committed for the purpose of stealing the truck, so I would have assumed that they would have gone together in the same trial.

 

[Alethea Dice]

For some reason, I thought that the chop shop charges would have bolstered the idea that the murder was committed for the purpose of stealing the truck, so I would have assumed that they would have gone together in the same trial.

I think it would have helped support the truck as a motive too, but because it's a separate crime, it would be a separate trial. If they wanted to use it to support the theory, they would probably want that trial done first with a verdict in their favour. They can use the theft of the truck as the motive anyway, but it would be hard to use the chop shop as the reason for wanting the truck if he's never been charged with having a chop shop.

JMO

 

[Juballee]

The lack of additional charges for the chop shop lead me to believe that the whole chop shop story was an exaggeration or a full out fabrication meant to incriminate DM further in the eyes of the public. And it worked like a charm, if you ask me. There are no charges, no proof that we can verify, yet most people still believe it, if this site is any kind of indicator of public opinion.

 

[Sillybilly]

The lack of additional charges for the chop shop lead me to believe that the whole chop shop story was an exaggeration or a full out fabrication meant to incriminate DM further in the eyes of the public. And it worked like a charm, if you ask me. There are no charges, no proof that we can verify, yet most people still believe it, if this site is any kind of indicator of public opinion.

If there was anything that 'further' incriminated DM, it was Tim's truck and his body both being found on properties related to DM, not the discovery of stolen parts in the MA hangar

 

[Carli]

The lack of additional charges for the chop shop lead me to believe that the whole chop shop story was an exaggeration or a full out fabrication meant to incriminate DM further in the eyes of the public. And it worked like a charm, if you ask me. There are no charges, no proof that we can verify, yet most people still believe it, if this site is any kind of indicator of public opinion.

Moreover, these items were being sold online, not held as evidence or seized by the police, so I agree. An airplane hangar is a big place. Vehicles and planes had been being collected for decades, starting with CM. Several of these items had doubtless acquired considerable value. That original reports of a "giant chop shop" with "hundreds of stolen vehicles and parts" was quickly reduced to "up to 10" vehicles where police were trying to find rightful owners but then, at the end of the day we seem to be left with Marty's bike which reportedly was missing its VIN number. Who may have removed that VIN and when that occurred remain open questions, IMO.

Whether the whole chop shop theory might be considered prejudicial, the references to how auto theft is a multi-million dollar industry with a significant percentage of stolen autos originating in Ontario, paired with police references to the MillardAir hangar as a "giant chop shop", definitely packs heavy innuendo, IMO. If there's any credence to it, I'm confident that we'll hear more about this chop shop, at trial, when, presumably, we may be expected to learn that the accused are professional car thieves, in seeking vehicles for their illegal endeavour, set up phony test drives with owners, then murder them and steal their trucks. (Apparently a marginally privileged upbringing makes you too stupid to consider just going to the local supermarket parking lot and surreptitiously stealing any vehicle you want thus avoiding the problems of murdering owners.) MOO.

Based on the original count of vehicles at the hangar, there should have been 100 or more such untimely deaths in Ontario during car thefts. Has there been a significant decrease in Ontario car thefts since this "giant chop shop" was put out of business? Are markedly fewer owners now being murdered during vehicle heists then before DM and co were incarcerated? I for one, will also be interested in hearing how the relatively large number of employees didn't happen to notice all this shop chopping going on. If these men, most with lengthy backgrounds in aviation knew what was going on, maybe even changed careers to participate, then why have none of them be arrested? I agree with Juballee. The "chop shop" and the " shoots" may very well be just confections to inflame public opinion where the case against the accused is primarily circumstantial. MOO, IMHO. The spin has definitely worked so far. MOO.

 

[Carli]

If there was anything that 'further' incriminated DM, it was Tim's truck and his body both being found on properties related to DM, not the discovery of stolen parts in the MA hangar

So are you saying we probably should ignore the "giant chop shop" allegations?

 

[matou]

IMO vehicles weren't the only things being "chopped" in the hangar. JMO

 

[Carli]

IMO vehicles weren't the only things being "chopped" in the hangar. JMO

You mean the Millardair hangar may actually have been some kind of slaughterhouse with lots of vehicle owners being dismembered? Horrible. Talk about Piggy's Palace redux. Amazing how one crime's template fits so conveniently over another, isn't it. MOO. IMHO.

 

[Arnie M]

The lack of additional charges for the chop shop lead me to believe that the whole chop shop story was an exaggeration or a full out fabrication meant to incriminate DM further in the eyes of the public. And it worked like a charm, if you ask me. There are no charges, no proof that we can verify, yet most people still believe it, if this site is any kind of indicator of public opinion.

I find it difficult to follow your logic ..... after being charged with three counts of murder I do not think police would need to toss in some stolen parts charges in order to "publicly Incriminate DM further" ... and we know LE towed away another trailer besides the Harley one so it could have been stolen too ..... plus police said several vehicles in the hangar were repainted and had serial numbers filed off .... and If I could place a bet I would say the repainted grey woodchipper was the one stolen from Oakville.

I suspect LE have priorities such as
1. The murder of Mr Bosma
2. The murder of Ms Babcock
3. The death of Wayne M.
4. Illegal firearm
5. Anything else ... stolen goods etc.

I admire your loyalty to DM .... and maybe he simply purchased those (stolen) goods from someone else , but possession is 9/10ths of the law in those situations unless he can show they were purchased under circumstances that appeared completely legitimate at the time , including legible receipts and prices reasonably close to market value..

.

Hamilton police confirmed they’d recovered several stolen vehicles — including a motorcycle that had been chopped down to its parts with the serial numbers scratched off — from the Waterloo hangar owned by Millard. No charges have been laid in connection to those vehicles.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2..._attempted_third_test_drive_of_dodge_ram.html

WATERLOO REGION — Police say they've found evidence that suggests the Millardair hangar at the Region of Waterloo International Airport was being used as a giant "chop shop" for stolen vehicles.

Hamilton police confirm they're investigating multiple stolen vehicles and parts found inside the massive Breslau hangar owned by the 27-year-old man at the centre of the Tim Bosma murder investigation.

http://www.therecord.com/news-story/3250211-stolen-vehicles-found-inside-millard-s-airport-hangar/

Multiple stolen vehicles and parts were found in the building

http://collisionrepairmag.com/news/...estigate-possible-chop-shop-at-millard-hangar

The description of vehicles dismantled, repainted and having serial numbers ground away fits with a "typical chop shop," said Waterloo Regional Police Inspector Kevin Thaler.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/3250204-murder-suspect-s-waterloo-hangar-set-up-as-chop-shop-/

 

[Carli]

Here's a photograph of the hangar interior dated January Feb 5th 2013. Looks quite pristine to my untrained eye. There must have been a flurry of "giant chop shop" and or slaughtering activity going on in the following 3 months. IMO. MOO. IMHO.

 

[Tamarind]

If there was anything that 'further' incriminated DM, it was Tim's truck and his body both being found on properties related to DM, not the discovery of stolen parts in the MA hangar

Well some people are found dead beneath parking garages having fallen or jumped off, and their car is often either in the parking garage or left at a friends. Does that mean the friend or the parking garage owner/attendant is responsible? Or should there be a trial to determine the true facts of the case?

 

[Tamarind]

Moreover, these items were being sold online, not held as evidence or seized by the police, so I agree. An airplane hangar is a big place. Vehicles and planes had been being collected for decades, starting with CM. Several of these items had doubtless acquired considerable value. That original reports of a "giant chop shop" with "hundreds of stolen vehicles and parts" was quickly reduced to "up to 10" vehicles where police were trying to find rightful owners but then, at the end of the day we seem to be left with Marty's bike which reportedly was missing its VIN number. Who may have removed that VIN and when that occurred remain open questions, IMO.

Whether the whole chop shop theory might be considered prejudicial, the references to how auto theft is a multi-million dollar industry with a significant percentage of stolen autos originating in Ontario, paired with police references to the MillardAir hangar as a "giant chop shop", definitely packs heavy innuendo, IMO. If there's any credence to it, I'm confident that we'll hear more about this chop shop, at trial, when, presumably, we may be expected to learn that the accused are professional car thieves, in seeking vehicles for their illegal endeavour, set up phony test drives with owners, then murder them and steal their trucks. (Apparently a marginally privileged upbringing makes you too stupid to consider just going to the local supermarket parking lot and surreptitiously stealing any vehicle you want thus avoiding the problems of murdering owners.) MOO.

Based on the original count of vehicles at the hangar, there should have been 100 or more such untimely deaths in Ontario during car thefts. Has there been a significant decrease in Ontario car thefts since this "giant chop shop" was put out of business? Are markedly fewer owners now being murdered during vehicle heists then before DM and co were incarcerated? I for one, will also be interested in hearing how the relatively large number of employees didn't happen to notice all this shop chopping going on. If these men, most with lengthy backgrounds in aviation knew what was going on, maybe even changed careers to participate, then why have none of them be arrested? I agree with Juballee. The "chop shop" and the " shoots" may very well be just confections to inflame public opinion where the case against the accused is primarily circumstantial. MOO, IMHO. The spin has definitely worked so far. MOO.

I agree I think a few reports were deliberately inflammatory, not sure why other than as you suggest, to sway public opinion. The bold part of your post above, actually got me thinking. If DM has such criminal friends and he or one of these friends just wanted a truck, then why not as you say go take it? They allegedly knew where it was parked and at the time there were no big iron gates to keep people out. The possibilities on the test drive are endless, so how it apparently ended so concise and almost deliberate is something that I find to be an, anomaly !

 

[SnooperDuper]

I agree I think a few reports were deliberately inflammatory, not sure why other than as you suggest, to sway public opinion. The bold part of your post above, actually got me thinking. If DM has such criminal friends and he or one of these friends just wanted a truck, then why not as you say go take it? They allegedly knew where it was parked and at the time there were no big iron gates to keep people out. The possibilities on the test drive are endless, so how it apparently ended so concise and almost deliberate is something that I find to be an, anomaly !

You need to steal both the truck and its key, because there is security built into the key fob. That's why they did not just go take it.

 

[Tamarind]

You need to steal both the truck and its key, because there is security built into the key fob. That's why they did not just go take it.

If in fact they did go to take it. One thing that I find strange is, why would anyone drive a truck back through Toronto and park it on a driveway? I wonder how many people knew MB location, just wondering. We do know that several people were either living at DM's home or had an office there at least, so the place was quite busy and many may have had a key.

 

[Carli]

You need to steal both the truck and its key, because there is security built into the key fob. That's why they did not just go take it.

You own a trailer. You and your buddies push the truck into the trailer. You either already own or later purchase a replacement key fob. You can get 'em from the manufacturer. You can even buy 'em on ebay. People who own vehicles with this security key fob function do lose their keys from time to time. It doesn't mean they have to throw away their truck.

 

[Alethea Dice]

You own a trailer. You and your buddies push the truck into the trailer. You either already own or later purchase a replacement key fob. You can get 'em from the manufacturer. You can even buy 'em on ebay. People who own vehicles with this security key fob function do lose their keys from time to time. It doesn't mean they have to throw away their truck.

True. Once you have the VIN number, it's not hard to get a blank fob programmed. But I have to wonder if they'd even bother if they were just going to chop it up for parts.

 

[Carli]

True. Once you have the VIN number, it's not hard to get a blank fob programmed. But I have to wonder if they'd even bother if they were just going to chop it up for parts.

Agreed. If we're to believe that the accused are the sort of guys who usually hang out with the walking tattoo adverts who have ready access to illegal guns, easy drugs, easy girls and lots of rap and roll, why do I think that not having a key to the vehicle they want to heist would be some kind of insurmountable problem. Sez one to t'other: "Like kewl dude. Gotta have that ride!" T'other replies: "Yer talkin', man, but damn, we don't have no key. Wanna flee? Get yer own key." Sez one back: "Yeah, yer right,man. Let's be jivin' on home and play us some crocinole or sumpin'." They adjust their crotches and lurch off across the parking lot, diving into a couple of head spins every now and then because, well because ramming the full weight of your body, head first into concrete sometimes is like totally where it's at. Don't negate. Appreciate.