Harvard Professor Arrested--Gates Black in America

[Morag]

Mind sharing what putting a photo of both side to side would prove?

Sure. You've indicated that you would have been frightened of Dr. Gates, so presumably Sgt Crowley must have been, too. It will be interesting to see what people are so scared of- and if he is standing next to someone a foot shorter or 20 years older or 50 pounds lighter, then we will be able to make an educated guess as to how scary Gates may have seemed.

 

[southcitymom]

Mind sharing what putting a photo of both side to side would prove?

Gates is 5'7", 150-lbs and uses a cane to walk. I think he even had bronchitis. Crowley is bigger, younger, stronger, healthier....and he had a weapon and back-up from his force!!!

That picture needs to be held in mind to fully understand why some of us believe that it's ludicrous to think Crowley was really scared of Gates and that Crowley probably arrested Gates because Gates pi$$ed him off something fierce. Which, as has been said before, isn't a crime.

 

[magnolia]

Well, it should be easy to prove this. He was not arrested until he went out onto his own porch. So he must not have been out of control-stamping his foot, waving his cane, shouting with his bronchially-affected voice, asking for the officer's ID-while inside. The several non-police witnesses may be able to shed light on exactly what Gates did to so frighten the officer.

How do you define out of control?

Toddlers, teenagers, mentally ill persons, drunks- its easy to imagine those sorts of people being out of control...but a man of Gates' years, physical condition, and station in life...not so much. Absent threatening the safety of Crowley or others, I can't believe he was really out of control.

Why were the charges dismissed? I am sure the case would have been laughed out of court. There may or may not have been a racial element to this case, probably not, but there was an element of a cop doing something because he could, not because it was necessary.

Gates was arrested for yelling (hoarsely) on his own porch. And I'll bet he wasn't yelling, "I'll kill youse all" or anything stronger than "Get off my lawn."

Let's assume that police represent 1% of the population. Are the remaining 99% of us obliged to kowtow to them on the off chance that we will upset them? Or should the 1% have a better grip on their temperament and avoid arresting honorable citizens who may have p---ed them off or embarrassed them? I like and admire cops in general, but they make mistakes, too, and I will not grovel nor surrender my 1st amendment rights just to placate them. Shouldn't be necessary in our country.

I don't believe anyone has suggested that an American Citizen should grovel or surrender their 1st amendment rights. Sure, police officers are human. They make mistakes like everyone else. However, there is a right way and a wrong way to invoke ones rights. IMO, Mr. Gates tried to invoke at the wrong time in the wrong way.

 

[ziggy]

You know, it's not up to the policeman to judge whether a guy allegedly breaking in is a criminal or not by
A) his race
B) how he is dressed
C) what the suspicious person tell him

It matters not what the man said - it only matters that he did not cooperate in the very simple act of showing his I.D. and explaining to the police that it was his house.

Mr. Gates made the decision to escalate the situation rather than simply resolve it with cooperation and a "thank you" to the police for being very thorough.

Can race baiting be an act of a black person too? Sure, why not?

 

[magnolia]

Gates is 5'7", 150-lbs and uses a cane to walk. I think he even had bronchitis. Crowley is bigger, younger, stronger, healthier....and he had a weapon and back-up from his force!!!

That picture needs to be held in mind to fully understand why some of us believe that it's ludicrous to think Crowley was really scared of Gates and that Crowley probably arrested Gates because Gates pi$$ed him off something fierce. Which, as has been said before, isn't a crime.

Yet, Mr. Gates was well enough to travel overseas and force his way through a jammed door.

What does Crowley's size, age, strength and health have to do with anything? This has nothing to do with whether Crowley was afraid of Gates. It has everything to do with a man that went into a rage because police officers were dispatched out to protect his property.

 

[southcitymom]

Yet, Mr. Gates was well enough to travel overseas and force his way through a jammed door.

What does Crowley's size, age, strength and health have to do with anything? This has nothing to do with whether Crowley was afraid of Gates. It has everything to do with a man that went into a rage because police officers were dispatched out to protect his property.

I have said since the beginning that both men share culpability in the escalation of this incident and that is where I remain today.

While it does, of course, have something to do with Gates's reaction when Crowley came to his property, it doesn't end there. It also has something to do with many different other things to include how Crowley may have perceived Gates and how Gates may have perceived Crowley and how both men may have brought their individual prejudices and perceptions to the situation (just as we all do into every situation) and how two strong-willed men who are used to being listened to had a hard-time backing down, etc..etc..

If you don't think the physical attributes of these men is worth considering when we consider what went down that evening, that's cool. Others, myself included, think it's worth a look.

 

[Theonly1]

Just wanted to mention that while I totally think that Gates and Crowley could both likely have handled things in a more level-headed manner, the facts remain that no crime occurred. Gates (as we all know and as the officer himself admittedly discovered on the scene) was in his own home. Once that fact was proven to be true it was game over. Even if Gates unwisely had gotten huffy, asked the police for his badge number and supervisor, called him a racist, etc., it did not justify an arrest. Once the police KNEW that Gates was who he claimed to be and that he was in his own home then the police needed to get in the squad car and move on down the road.

And, I hate to be the bearer of "bad news" but Gates had every right to RESIST the arrest! But he did not, thankfully so at this point. We are allowed to resist an unlawful arrest (of course with non-deadly force). This thing could have gotten even uglier and Gates still would have walked out of the precinct. Breaking into your own home is not unlawful. Rolling your eyes, asking for a badge number, being an , and being disrespectful IN YOUR OWN HOME (though unwise) is not a crime. If a police officer (especially after ascertaining you are who you say you are and that there is no crime) gets a hair across his butt and decides to arrest you unlawfully you can resist that arrest lawfully. Thank god it did not come to that, but it could have.

 

[Theonly1]

Well, it should be easy to prove this. He was not arrested until he went out onto his own porch. So he must not have been out of control-stamping his foot, waving his cane, shouting with his bronchially-affected voice, asking for the officer's ID-while inside. The several non-police witnesses may be able to shed light on exactly what Gates did to so frighten the officer.

How do you define out of control?

Toddlers, teenagers, mentally ill persons, drunks- its easy to imagine those sorts of people being out of control...but a man of Gates' years, physical condition, and station in life...not so much. Absent threatening the safety of Crowley or others, I can't believe he was really out of control.

Why were the charges dismissed? I am sure the case would have been laughed out of court. There may or may not have been a racial element to this case, probably not, but there was an element of a cop doing something because he could, not because it was necessary.

Gates was arrested for yelling (hoarsely) on his own porch. And I'll bet he wasn't yelling, "I'll kill youse all" or anything stronger than "Get off my lawn."

Let's assume that police represent 1% of the population. Are the remaining 99% of us obliged to kowtow to them on the off chance that we will upset them? Or should the 1% have a better grip on their temperament and avoid arresting honorable citizens who may have p---ed them off or embarrassed them? I like and admire cops in general, but they make mistakes, too, and I will not grovel nor surrender my 1st amendment rights just to placate them. Shouldn't be necessary in our country.

Amen to that! I'm an emotional person by nature. Law school will drum a lot of that out of you (if you let it). You end up looking at the scenario in a step-by-step process. As I understand it, Gates was already inside his home. Crowley and Co. come upon the scene wondering about Gates' identity (which is totally understandable). Gates is inside when they query his identity. Gates gets huffy which is not surprising because he's just gotten back into town and his door is giving him trouble. Gates has his driver with him helping him call people to deal with the problem. The police have a bit of trouble ascertaining Gates' identity at first. But once they get the information that Gates is the owner of said home (as we all know they did) and that there is no break-in occuring they needed to leave because there was no crime. However, you have a pissed-off resident and I would think an irritated cop being queried for his badge number. Two males who aren't used to being questioned, perhaps, and here the trouble begins.

The police report filed by the officer is obviously slanted towards the police (a duh). Even the report mentions that Gates was known homeowner at that juncture and that the officer did not like the acoustics in the house and wanted to get Gates outside. That was absolutely not necessary. At that point in time, the officer needed to get in the squad car, turn over the key and move on down the road. It is implied that Gates wanted to keep the argument going with the officer but then it is also mentioned in the police report about wanting to get him outside because of the kitchen acoustics. Which was it? I bet you that Gates did not want to go outside after he gave them his identification because he did not want to go outside when the cops first showed up. Once outside, any yelling and/or *****ing can start to be considered unruliness in a "public place". Uh huh, you get where I'm going with this.

Let's even go so far as to assume Gates once outside asked the officer for his badge number again or told him he'd call the officer's supervisor. Is this behavior in bad taste? You bet your behind. Is it bordering on stupid? Yes. But is it illegal and arrestable? I don't think so. Because even at that juncture the police know there was not an underlying crime. All you had was one highly irritated black professor feeling very indignant and still being questioned on his porch. How threatening was this guy? Come on. Nowhere in the police report did the officer say he felt threatened, right?

Gates, once he was told he was being arrested, had every right to fight them off. But he did not. I'm sure once he started resisting arrest they would have tased him, or slammed him on the ground, at the very least. As citizens we have the right to resist truly unlawful arrests. Police (and I love them, truly I do) have no right to march around slapping cuffs on law-abiding citizens and we don't have to lick their boots to ensure that we don't get matching wristbands.

Anyway, was Gates acting the fool? Yes. But he had every right to act the damn fool.

 

[magnolia]

Sure. You've indicated that you would have been frightened of Dr. Gates, so presumably Sgt Crowley must have been, too. It will be interesting to see what people are so scared of- and if he is standing next to someone a foot shorter or 20 years older or 50 pounds lighter, then we will be able to make an educated guess as to how scary Gates may have seemed.

Crowley deals with unruly people every day. I am not used to this type of behavior, so Yes, Gates behavior would frighten me. I believe "concern" is a more appropriate word to use for Crowley's reaction to Gates behavior.

What do you think the end result should be when an officer is dispatched to a house where a man is yelling, screaming, and verbally abusing his wife? No matter what the situation is, yelling, screaming, and verbal abuse is not acceptable in our society. IMO, this is not the first time someone has been verbally abused by Gates. Sgt. Crowley will probably not be his last.

 

[nanny1]

I have said since the beginning that both men share culpability in the escalation of this incident and that is where I remain today.

While it does, of course, have something to do with Gates's reaction when Crowley came to his property, it doesn't end there. It also has something to do with many different other things to include how Crowley may have perceived Gates and how Gates may have perceived Crowley and how both men may have brought their individual prejudices and perceptions to the situation (just as we all do into every situation) and how two strong-willed men who are used to being listened to had a hard-time backing down, etc..etc..

If you don't think the physical attributes of these men is worth considering when we consider what went down that evening, that's cool. Others, myself included, think it's worth a look.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that Gates most likely brought this all on himself. When he first moved to Lexington a while back,he paid a visit to the Lexington Police Dept introduced himself because he wanted them to see his black face and did not want to be stopped while driving black. I would say that he was awaiting an occassion to scream racism. In my opinion if he had gotten stopped for speeding the same behavior would have occurred.

 

[magnolia]

Amen to that! I'm an emotional person by nature. Law school will drum a lot of that out of you (if you let it). You end up looking at the scenario in a step-by-step process. As I understand it, Gates was already inside his home. Crowley and Co. come upon the scene wondering about Gates' identity (which is totally understandable). Gates is inside when they query his identity. Gates gets huffy which is not surprising because he's just gotten back into town and his door is giving him trouble. Gates has his driver with him helping him call people to deal with the problem. The police have a bit of trouble ascertaining Gates' identity at first. But once they get the information that Gates is the owner of said home (as we all know they did) and that there is no break-in occuring they needed to leave because there was no crime. However, you have a pissed-off resident and I would think an irritated cop being queried for his badge number. Two males who aren't used to being questioned, perhaps, and here the trouble begins.

The police report filed by the officer is obviously slanted towards the police (a duh). Even the report mentions that Gates was known homeowner at that juncture and that the officer did not like the acoustics in the house and wanted to get Gates outside. That was absolutely not necessary. At that point in time, the officer needed to get in the squad car, turn over the key and move on down the road. It is implied that Gates wanted to keep the argument going with the officer but then it is also mentioned in the police report about wanting to get him outside because of the kitchen acoustics. Which was it? I bet you that Gates did not want to go outside after he gave them his identification because he did not want to go outside when the cops first showed up. Once outside, any yelling and/or *****ing can start to be considered unruliness in a "public place". Uh huh, you get where I'm going with this.

Let's even go so far as to assume Gates once outside asked the officer for his badge number again or told him he'd call the officer's supervisor. Is this behavior in bad taste? You bet your behind. Is it bordering on stupid? Yes. But is it illegal and arrestable? I don't think so. Because even at that juncture the police know there was not an underlying crime. All you had was one highly irritated black professor feeling very indignant and still being questioned on his porch. How threatening was this guy? Come on. Nowhere in the police report did the officer say he felt threatened, right?

Gates, once he was told he was being arrested, had every right to fight them off. But he did not. I'm sure once he started resisting arrest they would have tased him, or slammed him on the ground, at the very least. As citizens we have the right to resist truly unlawful arrests. Police (and I love them, truly I do) have no right to march around slapping cuffs on law-abiding citizens and we don't have to lick their boots to ensure that we don't get matching wristbands.

Anyway, was Gates acting the fool? Yes. But he had every right to act the damn fool.

It is my understanding, Gates started verbally abusing Sgt. Crowley shortly after he/Crowley first walked in the door. Sorry, but abusive behavior because someone has to deal with common aggravating life circumstances is not an acceptable excuse in this situation. That said, No, I don't agree that Gates had every right to (as you put it....act like a fool.

I have read comment after comment about how frail Gates is. Didn't I see a video this morning showing Gates riding off on a motorcycle - or was it a bicycle? Whichever one it was, Gates very obviously is not as frail as people say he is. Not that his stamina and health has anything to do with it because invalids can go into a rage and cause harm to another person.

 

[southcitymom]

Why is it so hard for you to believe that Gates most likely brought this all on himself. When he first moved to Lexington a while back,he paid a visit to the Lexington Police Dept introduced himself because he wanted them to see his black face and did not want to be stopped while driving black. I would say that he was awaiting an occassion to scream racism. In my opinion if he had gotten stopped for speeding the same behavior would have occurred.

It's not hard for me to believe Gates played a part in bringing this on himself. I'm uncertain what I said that indicated otherwise. Every single conflict I have had in my life - I have played a part in bringing it on myself!

I think, when considering Gates's actions, it begs the question of WHY a non-criminal professional black man in our country may feel like he is going to be treated differently by police based on his race. The answer to that question is, for me, obvious - historically, black men are treated differently (and not in a good way) by law enforcement. Lots of the discussion here has centered around that fact.

So, I fully empathize with Gates even while I might feel that he acted foolishly. As much as I can from my limited perspective as a middle-aged white woman, I feel like I understand where Gates was coming from.

Additionally, I feel like Crowley made some foolish decisions. I think Gates really got his goat and he responded by asserting the full range of his authority and arresting Gates. This was, IMHO, macho posturing. He was too angry at Gates to do what police officers are trained to do when they face an aggravated person - de-escalate the conflict. I do not believe he felt Gates was any real threat.

That said, I also fully empathize with Crowley. Police have one of the hardest jobs in the world and my respect for them is boundless - always walking into uncertain or dangerous situations in an attempt to restore order - what a complete pain in the a$$. As much as I can from my limited perspective of someone who has never walked the street as a law enforcement officer, I feel like I understand where Crowley was coming from.

Gates and Crowley are both good, even exceptional, men, IMHO. Nothing I have read leads me to any other conclusion. But they both failed that evening - and hey, that's okay. I'll probably fail at 20 more things today before I hit my pillow tonight.

Here's to hoping a communal beer at the White House will be good for them both, help them to back off their individual ego-driven "positions" and slip into the other one's skin for a bit.

 

[southcitymom]

Crowley deals with unruly people every day. I am not used to this type of behavior, so Yes, Gates behavior would frighten me. I believe "concern" is a more appropriate word to use for Crowley's reaction to Gates behavior.

What do you think the end result should be when an officer is dispatched to a house where a man is yelling, screaming, and verbally abusing his wife? No matter what the situation is, yelling, screaming, and verbal abuse is not acceptable in our society. IMO, this is not the first time someone has been verbally abused by Gates. Sgt. Crowley will probably not be his last.

I posted a link earlier in this thread of an article interviewing an Atlanta woman who knew both Gates and Crowley very well. She indicated they are both nice, kind, respectful and reasonable people, and she was stunned that either man had been involved in a situation such as this.

Is Gates prone to verbal abuse, as you think? Well, I don't know him, but this woman does and her experience with him wouldn't seem to indicate that.

 

[rubelet]

I have read comment after comment about how frail Gates is. Didn't I see a video this morning showing Gates riding off on a motorcycle - or was it a bicycle? Whichever one it was, Gates very obviously is not as frail as people say he is. Not that his stamina and health has anything to do with it because invalids can go into a rage and cause harm to another person.

I think he rides an adult size tricycle.
I know I shouldn't laugh but the pictures make me giggle. That said, I don't think a riding a trike is much indication of stamina and health.

However, you are right. A person of the most unassuming size could go into a rage and harm another person. But that is absolutely not in question here. We know the extent of the disturbance Gates' was making that prompted his arrest. We know he never posed a physical threat to Sgt Crowley nor threatened, in his rage, to physically harm Crowley.

 

[Kimster]

Before I conclude that this is a case for racism, I would like to know how many other instances there are where LE screws up and arrests people for breaking into their own homes? And was Mr. Gates rude from the get-go, or rude because of how he was being treated? It just seems to me that once he showed his ID, the problem should have been alleviated. They could check that with their computer in the patrol car to make sure, too.

However, just because LE wasn't playing with a full deck that night doesn't mean racism, unless this ONLY happens to blacks, Mexicans, etc.

 

[rubelet]

What do you think the end result should be when an officer is dispatched to a house where a man is yelling, screaming, and verbally abusing his wife? No matter what the situation is, yelling, screaming, and verbal abuse is not acceptable in our society. IMO, this is not the first time someone has been verbally abused by Gates. Sgt. Crowley will probably not be his last.

Respectfully snipped by me..

It's frustrating to read arguments comparing this incident to other crimes and legal scenarios. I think comparing the situation between Mr. Gates and Sgt. Crowley to an incidence of domestic abuse is unfair, illogical and only serves to manipulate the argument. Those situations are handled differently by law enforcement.

Police officers are trained to deal with a multitude of different scenarios, to analyze the situations they respond to. They are not likely to conflate domestic disputes and a person mouthing off inside his private home when mistaken for an intruder and continually questioned about his identity (I guess the arrest hinges on the statements made on the veranda, but the debate remains about how well that was handled. It is still not the same as a domestic disturbance call).


As many of our websleuths community members have pointed out, a citizen has the right to behave in the way Mr. Gates did in this situation, even if it could have been handled better. Police officers could not have associated Mr. Gates' belligerence with a man verbally abusing his wife, and they do not make arrests based upon such broad legal interpretations of verbal abuse.

 

[Nova]

Before I conclude that this is a case for racism, I would like to know how many other instances there are where LE screws up and arrests people for breaking into their own homes? And was Mr. Gates rude from the get-go, or rude because of how he was being treated? It just seems to me that once he showed his ID, the problem should have been alleviated. They could check that with their computer in the patrol car to make sure, too.

However, just because LE wasn't playing with a full deck that night doesn't mean racism, unless this ONLY happens to blacks, Mexicans, etc.

Kimster, I agree with you. I think few if any here have concluded that Sgt. Crowley's behavior was motivated by racism. If there is proof otherwise, we haven't seen it.

What I have argued is that there may be personal and historic reasons why Prof. Gates perceived the encounter as racist and protested righteously (at least in his own mind).

 

[Nova]

I don't believe anyone has suggested that an American Citizen should grovel or surrender their 1st amendment rights. Sure, police officers are human. They make mistakes like everyone else. However, there is a right way and a wrong way to invoke ones rights. IMO, Mr. Gates tried to invoke at the wrong time in the wrong way.

magnolia, I get that you don't care for public displays of anger. Neither do I.

And I get that you think police officers should be treated with respect. As a rule, so do I.

But the Constitution of this great republic does NOT specify a "right time" to assert one's rights, nor does it put but a few restrictions on the "right way" to exercise one's right of free speech.

 

[magnolia]

Respectfully snipped by me..

It's frustrating to read arguments comparing this incident to other crimes and legal scenarios. I think comparing the situation between Mr. Gates and Sgt. Crowley to an incidence of domestic abuse is unfair, illogical and only serves to manipulate the argument. Those situations are handled differently by law enforcement.

Police officers are trained to deal with a multitude of different scenarios, to analyze the situations they respond to. They are not likely to conflate domestic disputes and a person mouthing off inside his private home when mistaken for an intruder and continually questioned about his identity (I guess the arrest hinges on the statements made on the veranda, but the debate remains about how well that was handled. It is still not the same as a domestic disturbance call).


As many of our websleuths community members have pointed out, a citizen has the right to behave in the way Mr. Gates did in this situation, even if it could have been handled better. Police officers could not have associated Mr. Gates' belligerence with a man verbally abusing his wife, and they do not make arrests based upon such broad legal interpretations of verbal abuse.

I sure hope the citizen's of Massachusetts don't rely on the statement in your post.

If you will refer to sub-section 250.2: (1)(b), you will find the following in the penal code.

(b) makes unreasonable noise or offensively coarse utterance, gesture or display, or addresses abusive language to any person present...

Although I appreciate and respect the info. posted on this thread, it is the sole discretion of a police officer to determine whether behavior of an individual constitutes disorderly conduct and if that individual should be arrested. From that point, it is up to a court to decide if that person is guilty of the charge.

I don't believe the meaning of the words "abusive language to any person present" in the sub-section is ambigious.

 

[Theonly1]

I sure hope the citizen's of Massachusetts don't rely on the statement in your post.

If you will refer to sub-section 250.2: (1)(b), you will find the following in the penal code.

(b) makes unreasonable noise or offensively coarse utterance, gesture or display, or addresses abusive language to any person present...

Although I appreciate and respect the info. posted on this thread, it is the sole discretion of a police officer to determine whether a citizen should be arrested for disorderly conduct - and up to a court to decide if that person is guilty of the charge.

I don't believe the meaning of the words "abusive language to any person present" in the sub-section is ambigious.

That's an tiny excerpt of the Massachusetts Model Penal Code, correct? How does that apply to a private house? Isn't Gates' porch his private property? As far as I know he did not become "disorderly" in his driveway or anywhere even beginning to smack of a public place. Further, his disorderliness would have to likely affect "members of the public" to be applicable. How is asking the officer for his supervisor's name bothersome to members of the public even if a crowd had gathered? Being disorderly in the presence of POLICE OFFICERS is different than the regular public because "it is an unfortunate but inherent part of a police officer's job to be in the presence of distraught individuals". [See linked case Commonwealth v. Joseph Mulvey.]

For the "public" to be affected, according to Massachusett's case law, it would have to been (for example) in his driveway raising a hell of a ruckus, or on the street, or some place that was frequented by the public (like an apartment house). Or if a crowd had gathered, they would have to have been likely affected by what he said and what he said must have served no legitimate purpose. Asking for a badge number or for the name of a supervisor shows a legitimate purpose to me. Massachusetts case law has also shown that "[n]othing less than conscious disregard of a substantial and unjustifiable risk of public nuisance will suffice for liability."

Further, luring Gates outside with mentioning being unable to hear or understand him due to the bad acoustics in the kitchen and then *bam* arresting him once he's outside does not look good for the police.

Check out this case: Commonwealth v. Joseph Mulvey

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ma&vol=appslip/appMar03i&invol=1