Has the case fizzled a bit?

[Venom]

Then I suggest you do a simple experiment. Get a similar sweater, wear it all day with your significant other near you, then have he, she, it undress and dress a child or some similar standin and then test the stand in for transfer.

You see these things can be done. But that might ruin the forum musings eh?

So you have done this?

It's funny how some people complain about musings around here, but yet offer no theories on how an intruder didn't leave any of their fibers, fingerprints, hairs in the house. This is a place for discussion...state why JR isn't a good suspect, what points to an intruder?

 

[questfortrue]

They must be some pesky fibers, to be there after she was wiped down. And along with those pesky fibers intertwined in the ligature.

I’m practicing my short replies here, Venom. Exactly – pesky. You know what Wecht in one of his subsequent books replied about the fibers?: Fibers are not like worms. They do not crawl inside ligature knots. And echoing Wecht’s line of thought, since it was a brand new pair of panties, fibers did not fly through the air to land in the crotch of the brand new pair of panties, from a brand new package of panties, which she was changed into after being wiped down.
OK, guess I’ll join OTG on his side of street now. Neighborhood’s getting rough!
:rockon:

 

[midwest mama]

Why not? If the fibers were on her underwear and she put them on it is entirely possible. Most families wash clothes together. His undershirt that he wore under the shirt goes in the washer along with her undies, All gets washed and dried, Fibers galore.

Scarlett, my dear, you are reaching, to put it mildly. Patsy herself thought she would be arrested - even joked about looking fat in jail garb. The Ramseys were so prepared to be arrested, that they made arrangements to have John's brother become guardian of Burke, if necessary. Guess they must have worried that someone might have slipped out of the web of "spin" and were allowing for the odd chance of a shred of truth getting through to interfere with the subterfuge that was carefully crafted to keep them from having to face charges.

The combination of a gutless DA, followed by an incompetent DA, plenty of expendable cash, and a powerful legal team worked it's magic in keeping the Ramseys from seeing the inside of a jail cell. There was a vote to indict handed down by the GJ, yet no arrest. Twelve people saw enough evidence to justify an arrest, based simply on probable cause. If the one person who mucked things up would have done his job, we all would have seen evidence up the ying yang come out at a trial which probably would have convinced another group of twelve that JB's parents were rightfully arrested for her wrongful death.

AH balked by stating "not enough evidence". Travesty. That child had her skull cracked open, was violated in a heinous manner, and suffered through having the breath of life choked out of her. You can doubt till you're blue in the face that there is enough total evidence to arrest John Ramsey for Felony Murder -- and you will be in the company of some others who agree with you. But I believe JB would have received justice by now if this case would have happened anywhere else but in Boulder, at the time AH was DA.

 

[BBB167893]

I say LET THE JURY DECIDE once and for all. - Previous post.

The Grand Jury did decide and then a juror came out and said they couldn't figure out who did what between John and Patsy.

They vote to indict BOTH parents for neglect leading to death and then say they couldn't figure out who did what?

Blue Bottle, have I got a thread for you! Just give me a moment.

And a DA is supposed to prosecute based on the fact that something terrible happened and the Ramseys were the only ones there?

Leaving aside for a moment that 95-98% of the suspects who make it to the indictment stage ARE guilty, you seem to be missing the point. Cases like this are not solved through forensic evidence. They are solved by isolating the suspects and working at them until one cracks. Which is what the cops WANTED to do.

 

[BBB167893]

You know, this makes me wonder if Lacy "redacted" the part of the 911 call tape she released to Wood because Burke was in fact on it.

Ha. That would explain a lot.

I've thought that for a while, now. Or did anyone else notice how the audio goes dead right where Burke's voice is supposed to be? I'm not talking static, either. I know an erased tape when I hear it.

 

[BBB167893]

Id like a source for that. An original source because I can not find it anywhere except from an old post here where someone brought a post from another forum and it was some lawyer named Levin that brought that up.

I can not find any independent finding on that.

And I don't mean from a site. From actual evidence report.

I am as interested in this case as anyone and I want to make sure before I accept something as fact, I have a true and valid source.

Don't change the subject, Scarlett. Just answer Chelly's question.

 

[BBB167893]

That is just a question from a prosecutor looking for an answer that could trap a potential suspect. That is not proof of anything. I just read this entire transcript and I find more that points away from this being evidence than to it. WHY? Because if you really have fibers unique to Patsy entwined in the ligature, you have a smoking gun. You have enough to prosecute. Anyone could find guilt based on that with other little circumstantial evidence.

I have not seen one piece of evidence, Not one test finding that supports this question. It is not a fact. IT is a question. Nothing more.

The transcript doesn't quite do it justice, Scarlett. If you can see the video of that little exchange, Patsy's reaction is, to borrow a phrase, a Kodak moment. She sways in her seat, her mouth twists into a sickly grin, and she looks like she's about to vomit, or faint. Or both.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't know how much I believe that without something more than someone else's say so. Why if they had this did they not put it in front of Patsy and say..We have the smoking gun..

Because they must not have.

I encounter that logical fallacy quite often. Frankly, one of the reasons this case is in the damn shape it's in is because the DA's office didn't know how to keep their cards close to the vest.

I have a hard time taking information from books people got paid for and accepting it as fact.

I'll try not to take that personally.

Incidentally, what's your beef with people getting paid for books? We live in a free-market society, don't we? Is not the basis of that free-market society that a person is entitled to compensation for their labor? Pretty much EVERYBODY who writes a book in this country on ANY subject gets paid for it.

If this is all really true, and they had all this evidence against her then it makes no sense not to charge her and prosecute.

Another common refrain. You forget two big things:

1) What would they charge her with? Each parent could claim that the other one did it.

2) The DA's office in Boulder didn't like to get its hands dirty with actual WORK, especially when the stakes were so high.

And to that end, Alex Hunter is symbolic of the whole problem in our nation. God forbid an elected official getting wealthy on our money should have to do any work!

If all this information is completely true then why not put it all out there for free?

A valid question, one we have pondered here many times. I guess everybody has their own ideas, but for my part, my brother has had this nagging feeling for a while now that they don't for the same reason they didn't want a Grand Jury and then sabotaged it when they were dragged into one: because there's something (what I don't know) in those records that could ruin some important people if it ever came to light. Henry Lee suggested something like that when he told Hunter that he would have to confess his own sins in order to move forward.

I can also explain the transfer like this..

Patsy has worn that coat how many times? Maybe she wore it and had her paint kit and transferred fibers to the bag with the paint supplies. Killer picks up paint stick it has fibers on it, They become entwined in the ligature as killer holds rope and uses brush to make the garrote.

For one thing, Patsy herself said that she never wore that coat/sweater to paint.

I'm a big believer in the practice of letting someone hang themselves with their own rope. Case in point. I've been asked why they would wipe JB down if they were staging a crime scene. Answer:

DOI, page 150: "John is kind of squeamish about blood and stuff anyway, so that clearly wasn't going to be an option."

The Dragon is back and breathing fire!

 

[BBB167893]

Then I suggest you do a simple experiment. Get a similar sweater, wear it all day with your significant other near you, then have he, she, it undress and dress a child or some similar standin and then test the stand in for transfer.

You see these things can be done. But that might ruin the forum musings eh?

Either way, it sounds a lot safer than having yourself zapped with a taser!

 

[BBB167893]

OK, guess I’ll join OTG on his side of street now. Neighborhood’s getting rough!

And so am I!

 

[BBB167893]

You can doubt till you're blue in the face that there is enough total evidence to arrest John Ramsey for Felony Murder -- and you will be in the company of some others who agree with you. But I believe JB would have received justice by now if this case would have happened anywhere else but in Boulder, at the time AH was DA.

Precisely the point I've been making these last few years, Mama. You really can't compare Boulder to anyplace in reality. It's like comparing pig droppings to chocolate ice cream.

 

[BBB167893]

Here ya go, BB01:

[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3813504"]The cross-fingerpointing defense - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Now, don't say I never did anything for you.

 

[cynic]

I have a hard time taking information from books people got paid for and accepting it as fact.

This is something that’s very important for everyone to understand about James Kolar.
He is not going to be making a dime from the writing of his book.

Carol McKinley has told us:
“Jim Kolar says it’s taken him months of introspection and much of his retirement savings to launch his self-published book.”

Tricia Griffith has told us:
“This man took his retirement money out and published the book at great personal risk.”
“Kolar used his own money to publish this book, to hire lawyers, to do everything. He will not make his money back.
Plus there is the very real possibility he will be sued which will cost him a lot. Although you can't win a lawsuit when someone is telling the truth it doesn't mean it won't stop a lawsuit. Just can't win it.”

IF he manages to recoup the money he has spent on the project, further proceeds, if there are any, will go to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
http://www.ncmec.org/missingkids/servlet/PublicHomeServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&

If all this information is completely true then why not put it all out there for free?

Because there is at least a chance that proceeds might be forwarded to a very good charity.

If this is all really true, and they had all this evidence against her then it makes no sense not to charge her and prosecute.

That decision had nothing to do with the state of the evidence, the grand jury DID indict.
SuperDave has already answered that question.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I encounter that logical fallacy quite often. Frankly, one of the reasons this case is in the damn shape it's in is because the DA's office didn't know how to keep their cards close to the vest.



I'll try not to take that personally.

Incidentally, what's your beef with people getting paid for books? We live in a free-market society, don't we? Is not the basis of that free-market society that a person is entitled to compensation for their labor? Pretty much EVERYBODY who writes a book in this country on ANY subject gets paid for it.



Another common refrain. You forget two big things:

1) What would they charge her with? Each parent could claim that the other one did it.

2) The DA's office in Boulder didn't like to get its hands dirty with actual WORK, especially when the stakes were so high.

And to that end, Alex Hunter is symbolic of the whole problem in our nation. God forbid an elected official getting wealthy on our money should have to do any work!



A valid question, one we have pondered here many times. I guess everybody has their own ideas, but for my part, my brother has had this nagging feeling for a while now that they don't for the same reason they didn't want a Grand Jury and then sabotaged it when they were dragged into one: because there's something (what I don't know) in those records that could ruin some important people if it ever came to light. Henry Lee suggested something like that when he told Hunter that he would have to confess his own sins in order to move forward.



For one thing, Patsy herself said that she never wore that coat/sweater to paint.

I'm a big believer in the practice of letting someone hang themselves with their own rope. Case in point. I've been asked why they would wipe JB down if they were staging a crime scene. Answer:

DOI, page 150: "John is kind of squeamish about blood and stuff anyway, so that clearly wasn't going to be an option."

The Dragon is back and breathing fire!

I don't know why any of what I posted would be personal. It's about the case.
She does not have to paint in the jacket for her fibers from her coat to be all over it. All she has to do is be wearing someone she had on under the jacket, touch the jacket, carry the jacket to have the transfer of fibers. Fibers that belong in the house and on her.

The thing is that it is entirely possible for there to be an innocent transfer of fibers. It can't be ruled out. And that is a hard thing to overcome.

This case for the Ramseys being perpetrators has more problems for me than answers.
I'm but talking about complicated theories but just basic findings. If in fact there were the fibers at all which I am not completely convinced there were without proof.
People can say or print anything but without the proof of the basis for the theory it becomes just just another whisper down the lane game.

I find many more problem with fiber theories than conclusive evidence of Audrey committed by P.

 

[madeleine]

But I believe JB would have received justice by now if this case would have happened anywhere else but in Boulder, at the time AH was DA.

I agree and somehow it's a good thing that he didn't even try...he would have lost :facepalm: and it would have been game over....he wouldn't have been the right man for this......but it's frustrating to think about how things would have went with someone like Kane in charge....sigh....

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Scarlett, my dear, you are reaching, to put it mildly. Patsy herself thought she would be arrested - even joked about looking fat in jail garb. The Ramseys were so prepared to be arrested, that they made arrangements to have John's brother become guardian of Burke, if necessary. Guess they must have worried that someone might have slipped out of the web of "spin" and were allowing for the odd chance of a shred of truth getting through to interfere with the subterfuge that was carefully crafted to keep them from having to face charges.

The combination of a gutless DA, followed by an incompetent DA, plenty of expendable cash, and a powerful legal team worked it's magic in keeping the Ramseys from seeing the inside of a jail cell. There was a vote to indict handed down by the GJ, yet no arrest. Twelve people saw enough evidence to justify an arrest, based simply on probable cause. If the one person who mucked things up would have done his job, we all would have seen evidence up the ying yang come out at a trial which probably would have convinced another group of twelve that JB's parents were rightfully arrested for her wrongful death.

AH balked by stating "not enough evidence". Travesty. That child had her skull cracked open, was violated in a heinous manner, and suffered through having the breath of life choked out of her. You can doubt till you're blue in the face that there is enough total evidence to arrest John Ramsey for Felony Murder -- and you will be in the company of some others who agree with you. But I believe JB would have received justice by now if this case would have happened anywhere else but in Boulder, at the time AH was DA.

I disagree, unfortunately. The Ramseys had connections and money, two things that will help you get away with murder anywhere in this country. Of course Hunter had a horrible rate of taking cases to trial so that is something to take into consideration, but I am not convinced that they wouldn't get away with it in any other jurisdiction.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Scarlett, my dear, you are reaching, to put it mildly. Patsy herself thought she would be arrested - even joked about looking fat in jail garb. The Ramseys were so prepared to be arrested, that they made arrangements to have John's brother become guardian of Burke, if necessary. Guess they must have worried that someone might have slipped out of the web of "spin" and were allowing for the odd chance of a shred of truth getting through to interfere with the subterfuge that was carefully crafted to keep them from having to face charges.

The combination of a gutless DA, followed by an incompetent DA, plenty of expendable cash, and a powerful legal team worked it's magic in keeping the Ramseys from seeing the inside of a jail cell. There was a vote to indict handed down by the GJ, yet no arrest. Twelve people saw enough evidence to justify an arrest, based simply on probable cause. If the one person who mucked things up would have done his job, we all would have seen evidence up the ying yang come out at a trial which probably would have convinced another group of twelve that JB's parents were rightfully arrested for her wrongful death.

AH balked by stating "not enough evidence". Travesty. That child had her skull cracked open, was violated in a heinous manner, and suffered through having the breath of life choked out of her. You can doubt till you're blue in the face that there is enough total evidence to arrest John Ramsey for Felony Murder -- and you will be in the company of some others who agree with you. But I believe JB would have received justice by now if this case would have happened anywhere else but in Boulder, at the time AH was DA.

No, that is not reaching that is a probability. If I took a piece of tape and went to my dryer and picked up an article of clothing from my son, I bet fibers from my shirt or dh's shirt would be on it.

FOr it to be something to hang your hat on, It would have to be say an article of clothing that PR wore at say a job. She only wore it there, She never brought it home and changed before coming home. Something that was not worn or kept in the home in closest where clothes touched clothes, people hugged people with clothes on.

It just does not come across as anything other than a normal transfer.

This is not just a possibility but a probability.

Making any other scenario up, Would be reaching. But that is most likely and I think Occams Razor applied here supports that.

I am reading transcripts, finding documents and going through this step by step, And I am sure it is going to take me a while. It is hard to find information on the case without bias of some sort one way or the other.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

This is something that’s very important for everyone to understand about James Kolar.
He is not going to be making a dime from the writing of his book.

Carol McKinley has told us:
“Jim Kolar says it’s taken him months of introspection and much of his retirement savings to launch his self-published book.”

Tricia Griffith has told us:
“This man took his retirement money out and published the book at great personal risk.”
“Kolar used his own money to publish this book, to hire lawyers, to do everything. He will not make his money back.
Plus there is the very real possibility he will be sued which will cost him a lot. Although you can't win a lawsuit when someone is telling the truth it doesn't mean it won't stop a lawsuit. Just can't win it.”

IF he manages to recoup the money he has spent on the project, further proceeds, if there are any, will go to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
http://www.ncmec.org/missingkids/servlet/PublicHomeServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&

Because there is at least a chance that proceeds might be forwarded to a very good charity.
That decision had nothing to do with the state of the evidence, the grand jury DID indict.
SuperDave has already answered that question.

I am not sure that that is true. We will have to see. I still don't put a lot of stock in books written about cases. It just is one persons opinion on what they think.

It is just a personal thing for me. I am not judging anyone about it, But for me, The information coming from a book is not going to have as much impact on me.

 

[Nom de plume]

Why not? If the fibers were on her underwear and she put them on it is entirely possible. Most families wash clothes together. His undershirt that he wore under the shirt goes in the washer along with her undies, All gets washed and dried, Fibers galore.

Because they were new!

 

[Venom]

Because they were new!

Thank you!