Henry Lee's comment on the Touch DNA

  • #401
I just waxed my chin with some duct tape (ouch), but was able to remove or dislodge it fairly easily. My tongue just pushed it off.

I don't think we understand what the tape was for, then, because its not part of a staging of a brutal murder. Remember, staging a 'brutal murder' is what RDI is all about. NOT staging a 'botched kidnapping turned murder,' as is now more recently claimed.

The tape is very important to understand, because its not really part of a 'brutal murder' staging, as RDIclaims.

RDI wants things both ways. I don't think you can have 'brutal murder' staging with the tape, nor can you have 'botched kidnapping turned murder' with the brutality of the headbash and the neck furrow. Neither scenario makes any sense.

OUCH! Hope your chin is okay. Talk about sacrificing for a good cause.

Did you place the tape on two different articles of clothing, to get some fibers attached to the sticky side first? Did you use regular duct tape, or the kind that was placed over JB's mouth? If you used the regular kind, without placing it on two separate articles of clothing, to get some fibers on it...no wonder it hurt! IMO Regular duct tape, is probably the stickiest tape ever made. When I was little, I called it DUCK Tape.
 
  • #402
WERE YOU?

NO PHONE CALL EVER CAME FROM ANY KN.That is a FACT.Are you to have us believe a KN called and didn't say anything? what would be the point? no KN would come in,kill his intended target,leave her there..and then call.without the intended victim,there is no reason for further interaction.
It's obvious you're just playing the 20 q game in an attempt to annoy us.

Right, and lets not forget the fact that EVEN THOUGH the Ramsey's were supposedly waiting on a phone call from the "kidnapper", John picked up the phone and called his pilot, to make trip arrangements for "remaining family members". YEP, sounds like he was desperately sitting by the phone, waiting for the kidnapper to call, to me.
 
  • #403
OUCH! Hope your chin is okay. Talk about sacrificing for a good cause.

Did you place the tape on two different articles of clothing, to get some fibers attached to the sticky side first? Did you use regular duct tape, or the kind that was placed over JB's mouth? If you used the regular kind, without placing it on two separate articles of clothing, to get some fibers on it...no wonder it hurt! IMO Regular duct tape, is probably the stickiest tape ever made. When I was little, I called it DUCK Tape.
lol,apparently a lot of ppl do.I saw a roll at the store w/ a little duck on the wrapper.
 
  • #404
I just waxed my chin with some duct tape (ouch), but was able to remove or dislodge it fairly easily. My tongue just pushed it off.

PRECISELY! So why didn't JonBenet just push it off?

I don't think we understand what the tape was for, then, because its not part of a staging of a brutal murder.

On the contrary, it couldn't be anything else.

Remember, staging a 'brutal murder' is what RDI is all about. NOT staging a 'botched kidnapping turned murder,' as is now more recently claimed.

Where did you get THAT one from?

RDI wants things both ways.

You're the one making arguments against statements we've never made.

[QUOTEI don't think you can have 'brutal murder' staging with the tape, nor can you have 'botched kidnapping turned murder' with the brutality of the headbash and the neck furrow. Neither scenario makes any sense.[/QUOTE]

That assumes of course that the Rs knew exactly what a kidnapping gone awry OR a brutal murder should look like in the first place. As we've explained before, it was purely amateur night; you could tell. And many did.
 
  • #405
RDI states there was never any kidnapping.

Check.

The murder was staged to look like kidnappers were going to kidnap JBR but murdered her instead for whatever reason.

Check, with some quibbles.

Maybe the R's thought three fake intruders would be seen as unable to kidnap a small child and would have to murder her instead.

Three?! Oh, yes...the other members of the "foreign faction." (That one's as transparent as my living room window.)

The brutality was thrown in to steer away from the parents.

That, I think was part of it. Another part is that these were not experienced criminals. Just how much training did they have on how to kill someone in this fashion, anyway? It's not like they were Delta Force agents!

They'd brutally bash her head,

Could have happened in a fit of anger.

run the garrote deep into her neck,

Would YOU want the coroner to come back and say "this couldn't really have killed someone"?

and then 'wrap her lovingly'.

Check.

Makes no sense, but anyway...

Child murder NEVER makes sense to me, Holdon. And the day it does, I will pray for swift death.

RDI believes then that the crime scene was deliberately staged by the parents to appear as follows:

A ransom kidnapping by three people was botched, and so they brutally murdered her instead.

or

A ransom kidnapping by three people ended with the brutal murder of JBR, when their demands were not met.

Is there a final answer for RDI here? Is one of these the actual position for RDI now, in 2008?

While I resent having to be painted into such a narrow corner (my father, were he alive, would no doubt remind me of the difference between simple and simple-minded) I guess #2 is close enough for jazz.
 
  • #406
Changed staging plans midstream? Parents staged a kidnapping at first, and then midstream changed to botched kidnapping turned brutal murder?

More like it just snowballed.
 
  • #407
Thats not what I read. The phone rang several times.

Well, I don't know what you read, but you read wrong!

Det Thomas writes on page 27, pb:

"10:00 came and went. Detective Arndt thought it strange that no one, including the Ramseys, seemed to pay any attention to the deadline."

From PMPT, page13, pb:

"When 10:00 came and went without a call, Arndt thought it strange that nobody in the house commented."

How do you know the phone never got a 'passing glance'? Were you there?

No, but the police were.

Did you speak to someone who was there, that stated the R's paid no attention to the phone?

In a manner of speaking, I guess you could say they spoke to us!

What is this passing glance stuff besides fiction?

See for yourself.
 
  • #408
More like it just snowballed.

Snowballed staging.

Well thats just great.

Anytime you get too much conflicting or confusing evidence, just call it 'snowballed staging' and that will handle it. I mean, how more vague does it get? Doesn't it bother you that any set of pheonomenon could be explained with 'snowballed staging'?
 
  • #409
While I resent having to be painted into such a narrow corner (my father, were he alive, would no doubt remind me of the difference between simple and simple-minded) I guess #2 is close enough for jazz.


I'm simply figuring out what RDI thinks happened. Its really not as easy as you think to do that. One minute its staging of a botched kidnapping turned brutal murder (insert SD quote here), another its staging of ransom kidnappers' demands not met (insert SD quote here), and still another its 'staging on the fly, it changed as it progressed', effectively accounting for any collection of conflicting crime scene phenomenon. Congratulations on that one, there can be no argument.
 
  • #410
Thats a joke.

If LE had proven the cord and tape belonged to the R's, then why is it widely reported that neither were sourced to them? LE has proven no such thing. Where do you get this stuff?

You read into posts what you want to, not what was meant.
I never said or implied that LE proved PR bought the cord and tape, though they are certain she did. So am I.
What WAS proven is that cord and tape identical to those found on the body WERE sold at McGuckin's for the EXACT amount as two items found on a receipt belonging to PR.
If it walks like a duck...
 
  • #411
You read into posts what you want to, not what was meant.
I never said or implied that LE proved PR bought the cord and tape, though they are certain she did. So am I.
What WAS proven is that cord and tape identical to those found on the body WERE sold at McGuckin's for the EXACT amount as two items found on a receipt belonging to PR.
If it walks like a duck...

If all you have a hardware store receipt with like amounts on it, you really have nothing.

Do you have any idea how many items below $5 are priced the same?

Besides, the big problem for RDI is that there is no corroborating evidence that places EITHER the cord OR the tape at the R's residence. Let alone with a price sticker on a wrapper that even said McGuckins on it. Corroborating evidence is nice when it comes to having a receipt that doesn't list the actual item. I think like amounts would be significant if there was corroboration, BUT THERE ISN'T.
 
  • #412
11 TOM HANEY: Do you recall purchasing duct
12 tape and cord (inaudible) in the early part of December
13 of '96?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I never used this type of
15 stuff. I use -- I would buy the multiple rolls of the
16 clear.
17 TOM HANEY: Clear tape?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Clear tape.
19 TOM HANEY: You don't recall making a
20 purchase of either or both of those things, like I
21 said, back in early December, December 2nd of '96?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
23 TOM HANEY: Do you ever recall purchasing
24 black duct tape?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
0398
1 TOM HANEY: Ever have it around the house?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember seeing any.
3 I have my tape in the little drawer by the
4 refrigerator, but it was usually masking tape and the
5 clear tape for the UPS box.
6 TOM HANEY: It seems like you -- there can't
7 be a house in the world that doesn't have duct tape
8 because it repairs everything.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I never liked it because
10 it is so gooey. Isn't it gooey?
11 TOM HANEY: Yeah.


FROM AMES: She never used "this type of stuff". No WAIT... she "never liked it, because it is so gooey". NO, wait a minute...she is not sure if its gooey or not, because she HAD NEVER USED IT. So she has to ask..."Isn't it gooey?" :rolleyes:

IMO..she caught herself. She says she never used that sort of tape before, and never saw any lying around the house...but then says that she never liked it, because it is so gooey. Then asks...Isn't it gooey?
BECAUSE...she HAD used it before, she KNEW it was gooey, otherwise she wouldn't have said.."it is so gooey". She knew that Haney would say.."Okay, how do you know that it is gooey if you have never used it before." So, that's why she asks him..."Isn't it gooey?"....AFTER stating that she never liked it, because it is so gooey".

GOOD GRIEF :rolleyes:
 
  • #413
Snowballed staging.

Well thats just great.

Anytime you get too much conflicting or confusing evidence, just call it 'snowballed staging' and that will handle it.

The fact that it IS conflicting is a big red flag for staging, as I and others have attempted to explain in the past. Gregg McCrary said it: "real crime scenes are not inconsistent."

I mean, how more vague does it get?

If you want me to elaborate, just SAY so.

Doesn't it bother you that any set of pheonomenon could be explained with 'snowballed staging'?

All right, allow me to clarify. (Not that it will do me any good.) When you have two people, both with forceful personalities, in a highly agitated state, it follows that they are probably going to be of two minds about something. That conflict is likely to spill over into the workings of what they're doing. Or did you think they brought it up in committee?
 
  • #414
In fairness, neither of the Rs seem like duct tape and cord people to me.

They aren't the repair it yourself type (broken window since August? -If you want to believe that one) and duct tape isn't good for wrapping X-mas gifts, or for sending parcels. The cord was too large for those uses.

The receipt doesn't specify what was bought. I don't have a problem with saying it might have been duct tape and cord, nor do I have a problem saying it may have been something else altogether.
 
  • #415
I'm simply figuring out what RDI thinks happened.

You sure go about it in an odd way.

Its really not as easy as you think to do that.

I used to think that.

One minute its staging of a botched kidnapping turned brutal murder (insert SD quote here), another its staging of ransom kidnappers' demands not met (insert SD quote here),

If you have those quotes, I'd be mighty obliged if you'd put your money where your keyboard is.

and still another its 'staging on the fly, it changed as it progressed', effectively accounting for any collection of conflicting crime scene phenomenon.

It's really not that hard after all.

Congratulations on that one, there can be no argument.

Yes, I find it matches your "myths," "lies," and "tabloid fabrications" contentions quite well.
 
  • #416
11 TOM HANEY: Do you recall purchasing duct
12 tape and cord (inaudible) in the early part of December
13 of '96?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I never used this type of
15 stuff. I use -- I would buy the multiple rolls of the
16 clear.
17 TOM HANEY: Clear tape?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Clear tape.
19 TOM HANEY: You don't recall making a
20 purchase of either or both of those things, like I
21 said, back in early December, December 2nd of '96?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
23 TOM HANEY: Do you ever recall purchasing
24 black duct tape?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
0398
1 TOM HANEY: Ever have it around the house?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember seeing any.
3 I have my tape in the little drawer by the
4 refrigerator, but it was usually masking tape and the
5 clear tape for the UPS box.
6 TOM HANEY: It seems like you -- there can't
7 be a house in the world that doesn't have duct tape
8 because it repairs everything.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I never liked it because
10 it is so gooey. Isn't it gooey?
11 TOM HANEY: Yeah.


FROM AMES: She never used "this type of stuff". No WAIT... she "never liked it, because it is so gooey". NO, wait a minute...she is not sure if its gooey or not, because she HAD NEVER USED IT. So she has to ask..."Isn't it gooey?" :rolleyes:

IMO..she caught herself. She says she never used that sort of tape before, and never saw any lying around the house...but then says that she never liked it, because it is so gooey. Then asks...Isn't it gooey?
BECAUSE...she HAD used it before, she KNEW it was gooey, otherwise she wouldn't have said.."it is so gooey". She knew that Haney would say.."Okay, how do you know that it is gooey if you have never used it before." So, that's why she asks him..."Isn't it gooey?"....AFTER stating that she never liked it, because it is so gooey".

GOOD GRIEF :rolleyes:
God catch, Ames. Patsy sure caught herself here and again Haney (just like all the others who interviewed the Ramseys) let it slide without pushing her into a corner. Each time I read those pitiful kid glove treatment interviews, I feel like :banghead: !!!!
 
  • #417
In fairness, neither of the Rs seem like duct tape and cord people to me.

They aren't the repair it yourself type (broken window since August? -If you want to believe that one) and duct tape isn't good for wrapping X-mas gifts, or for sending parcels. The cord was too large for those uses.

The receipt doesn't specify what was bought. I don't have a problem with saying it might have been duct tape and cord, nor do I have a problem saying it may have been something else altogether.


In all fairness, Patsy Ramseys spent many years in the beauty pageant world, as a contestant, her sister's pageant mentor, a judge, and the mother and coach of a small pageant competitor.

Not only is duct tape used as a bust and figure enhancer--in many different colors to blend in with various costumes/bathing suits/gowns, no less, but it is used as a "mark" on the floor for contestants to "hit" when they're doing their walks, talent performances, etc.

JonBenet Ramsey hit many marks in her short life, I assure you. You can even see some of them on the floors of the stages in the videos we have seen.

She also had many dance lessons, and practiced, practiced, practiced her routines.

Black duct tape is used on stages, in various performance venues, etc., because it is more easily concealed from the audience. Crews use it to hold down cables and cords, to keep them from being fallen over, as well.

But really, a man who owns two sailboats and a two planes, who has two sons and daughters, who the Ramseys have stated many times fish and camp and rock climb...can't be imagined to be familiar with duct tape?

But John sure was ready to lie about Fleet White's ownership of just such tape to LE, wasn't he? Read the '98 LE interviews with John and Patsy: they were very willing to point to the Whites as owning all kinds of articles that were evidence in the crime. They were shameless. And lying came and comes as quickly to their lips as breathing. Even in the murder investigation of their child.

The Ramseys know what happened to JonBenet, IMO. I have no doubt about it.
 
  • #418
I don't have a strong opinion on who was responsible for JB's death.

But assuming the R's were responsible, what reason would they have for not takings JB's body, putting her in the car and dumping her somewhere instead of leaving her in the basement?

I know the obvious advantages, but since I don't have the facts of this case down cold, I'm wondering if there are less obvious reasons based on the specific facts of the case.

(I have tried to perform searches for this topic, but keep coming up short.)

TIA!
 
  • #419
I don't have a strong opinion on who was responsible for JB's death.

But assuming the R's were responsible, what reason would they have for not takings JB's body, putting her in the car and dumping her somewhere instead of leaving her in the basement?

I know the obvious advantages, but since I don't have the facts of this case down cold, I'm wondering if there are less obvious reasons based on the specific facts of the case.

(I have tried to perform searches for this topic, but keep coming up short.)

TIA!

The same reason they would have for HANDWRITING more than 1500 characters, that included casual remarks beyond the scope of a kidnap for ransom?
 
  • #420
The same reason they would have for HANDWRITING more than 1500 characters, that included casual remarks beyond the scope of a kidnap for ransom?

Maybe I am confused. They could have wrote the note AND got rid of her body and claimed kidnapping for ransom.

The idea that the kidnappers changed their minds and left her there is a much less convincing story.
 

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