Henry Lee's comment on the Touch DNA

  • #361
Was it fabric reinforced or plain vinyl? Was it even vinyl and not cloth? Are there any photos of the tape? How wide and how long was the piece.

Its a lot to not know.

This is what John has to say about it....it wasn't duct tape, that much I DO know. And from his desciption it sounds like just vinyl..and no cloth. Kinda like electrical tape but a little wider.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It wasn't really duct
15 tape, it was -- well I'm sure you've seen it. But
16 it was like black. It wasn't electrical tape. It
17 was kind of white, black, unusual tape, I thought.

He calls it usual tape, but goes on to say that its like what he uses in sailing.

When you click on Jamesons or Mame's name, in the link that I provided earlier...they are both IDI's, as you probably know. It will take you to a board that you have to join...and you can check out what they have to say about it. I cannot find a link stating exactly what the tape was made from, maybe they have one. All I could find was a picture of it, on the blanket...where John took it from her mouth and placed it. If you would like that, I can provide it for you. You will have to enlarge the picture, after saving it to your computer...to see the tape, though.
 
  • #362
This is what John has to say about it....it wasn't duct tape, that much I DO know. And from his desciption it sounds like just vinyl..and no cloth. Kinda like electrical tape but a little wider.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It wasn't really duct
15 tape, it was -- well I'm sure you've seen it. But
16 it was like black. It wasn't electrical tape. It
17 was kind of white, black, unusual tape, I thought.

He calls it usual tape, but goes on to say that its like what he uses in sailing.

When you click on Jamesons or Mame's name, in the link that I provided earlier...they are both IDI's, as you probably know. It will take you to a board that you have to join...and you can check out what they have to say about it. I cannot find a link stating exactly what the tape was made from, maybe they have one. All I could find was a picture of it, on the blanket...where John took it from her mouth and placed it. If you would like that, I can provide it for you. You will have to enlarge the picture, after saving it to your computer...to see the tape, though.

I would. Tanks.
 
  • #363
  • #364
Actually, WE don't have to know exactly what kind of tape it was. LE knows, because they actually have it in evidence. It was the identical tape to that which was sold in 2 places in Boulder. An Army/Navy store, and McGuckin's Hardware, where it sold for the exact amount listed on a receipt belonging to PR, purchased early December, along with an exact amount for the exact same cord.
Don't misunderstand that statement- I do not believe she bought those items to commit a pre-meditated crime. They were bought for innocent purposes and used to stage the crime because they were right there in the basement.
 
  • #365
Actually, WE don't have to know exactly what kind of tape it was. LE knows, because they actually have it in evidence. It was the identical tape to that which was sold in 2 places in Boulder. An Army/Navy store, and McGuckin's Hardware, where it sold for the exact amount listed on a receipt belonging to PR, purchased early December, along with an exact amount for the exact same cord.
Don't misunderstand that statement- I do not believe she bought those items to commit a pre-meditated crime. They were bought for innocent purposes and used to stage the crime because they were right there in the basement.


Agreed! What matters to me, is what you have stated in your post, and the fact that what should have been the "sticky" side, had Patsy's fibers..as well as tan fibers stuck to it, making it non-adhesive.
 
  • #366
I agree,Deedee.The other items are proven to have come FROM the house,and the tape and cord both are sold at a store where Patsy was found to have purchased items of the same exact price.
Overwhelmingly,the evidence points to someone inside the house.That can't just be tossed out.
 
  • #367
Actually, WE don't have to know exactly what kind of tape it was. LE knows, because they actually have it in evidence. It was the identical tape to that which was sold in 2 places in Boulder. An Army/Navy store, and McGuckin's Hardware, where it sold for the exact amount listed on a receipt belonging to PR, purchased early December, along with an exact amount for the exact same cord.
Don't misunderstand that statement- I do not believe she bought those items to commit a pre-meditated crime. They were bought for innocent purposes and used to stage the crime because they were right there in the basement.

Wasn't there a phone call 'between 8 and 10 AM'? And wouldn't that have to be the intruder, using the reasoning you've used here?

I'm sorry, but not only can you not source the receipt amounts, nor prove that cord and that tape sold for that amount, nor prove that those amounts that appeared on a receipt in fact were those items. Remember there is no trace of the 'recent' purchase anywhere, nor is there any use of the same cord or tape anywhere in the house.

RDI can't turn the fact that the cord and tape are not sourced to the house into 'they were bought for innocent purposes'. You simply have zero evidence that is the case. Had the cord or tape shown up someplace else in the house, then RDI wouldn't need to fabricate or imagine that they were bought for innocent purposes, because then it would've been an actual fact.
 
  • #368
No problem...just give me a minute to dig it up for you.

http://crimeshots.com/CrimeScene2.html

6th picture down on the right.

OK, well its wider than electrical tape, but narrower than duct tape. That makes it probably 1" wide.and at least 3" long. Part of it is obscured by the blanket. I don't see any black, only gray. Maybe its black on the other side. The FBI says its Suretape brand and had been recently manufactured (only a month old). This places the purchase of the tape very close to JBR's murder, and eliminates the chances it was anything but fresh. It could not have been an unsticky, remnant piece previously used on some other object.
 
  • #369
OK, well its wider than electrical tape, but narrower than duct tape. That makes it probably 1" wide.and at least 3" long. Part of it is obscured by the blanket. I don't see any black, only gray. Maybe its black on the other side. The FBI says its Suretape brand and had been recently manufactured (only a month old). This places the purchase of the tape very close to JBR's murder, and eliminates the chances it was anything but fresh. It could not have been an unsticky, remnant piece previously used on some other object.

Actually it had to be an unsticky remnant. First because various people have tested the same tape and found it not all that adhesive to begin with, and Second because it had PR's fibers and unsourced tan fibers on it, meaning that it wasn't taken fresh from the roll and placed on her mouth.
 
  • #370
OK, well its wider than electrical tape, but narrower than duct tape. That makes it probably 1" wide.and at least 3" long. Part of it is obscured by the blanket. I don't see any black, only gray. Maybe its black on the other side. The FBI says its Suretape brand and had been recently manufactured (only a month old). This places the purchase of the tape very close to JBR's murder, and eliminates the chances it was anything but fresh. It could not have been an unsticky, remnant piece previously used on some other object.

It was unsticky due to Patsy's fibers being on it, and also tan fibers from an unsourced item. So, you take some tape that is unsticky to begin with, according to people that know because they have tested it...and sprinkle a few clothing fibers on it, and then add some more fibers to it from whatever item you would like...and see just how sticky it is. Holdon, even TWO well known IDI's (like yourself) have stated that they tested similar tape and it was not sticky, brand new...off the roll.
 
  • #371
Actually it had to be an unsticky remnant. First because various people have tested the same tape and found it not all that adhesive to begin with, and Second because it had PR's fibers and unsourced tan fibers on it, meaning that it wasn't taken fresh from the roll and placed on her mouth.

Exactly!
 
  • #372
]It was unsticky due to Patsy's fibers being on it, and also tan fibers from an unsourced item. [/B]So, you take some tape that is unsticky to begin with, according to people that know because they have tested it...and sprinkle a few clothing fibers on it, and then add some more fibers to it from whatever item you would like...and see just how sticky it is. Holdon, even TWO well known IDI's (like yourself) have stated that they tested similar tape and it was not sticky, brand new...off the roll.

Wow, you've got that tape unsticky no matter if it was fresh off the roll or contaminated with fibers

. Unsticky tape fresh off the roll doesn't sound like tape, does it. I mean, new tape is supposed to be sticky, otherwise its not tape, right?

You want me to believe that brand new tape off the roll, tape that was just manufactured a month before, was not sticky? I'm sorry I can't believe it. Who would?
 
  • #373
Well there is a difference in the stickiness of tape. I've noticed a great difference in various brands of duct tape. Some tape is so sticky that it's very hard to remove. Other tape barely sticks. Who would believe it? Pretty much anybody familiar with tape.

If the tape in question was low tack tape to begin with, then it was on something else before being removed and placed on JBR's mouth, then it would be unsticky (or minimally sticky) by that time.

Wasn't the American girl doll made of tan cloth?
 
  • #374
Just some thoughts, for what they're worth...my opinion, and nothing more:

Here is a page with autopsy photos--WARNING, GRAPHIC!!

http://zyberzoom.com/JonBenet.html

No doubt y'all have seen these before. The first one appears to show saliva and mucous had dribbled down the right side of JonBenet's face from the nose and mouth, as if she were lying down at that point on her back, with her head turned to the right. Thomas also said there was a drop of blood-tinged mucous or saliva on her upper right sleeve; I'm deducing this was from her head being turned to the right and the fluid dripping down the face, onto the upraised arm/sleeve.

If saliva ran down the right side of JonBenet's face from her mouth, she didn't have duct tape on her mouth yet, did she? So why was she dribbling saliva down her face in that position unless she was unconscious before the duct tape was applied? And why apply duct tape to an unconscious child?

These are questions that I'd like to see the experts explain, those who did the autopsy, studied the lab reports, and know what they're talking about from experience, objectively testifying under oath, with no dog in this hunt.

The "black duct tape" has a "white" side to it, or it used to, at any rate. Years ago, some of us wondered about the "white" tape on the blanket. So I bought some black duct tape: the cloth kind. It was indeed white or pale/ivory on the sticky side. So I can only assume, without the ever elusive expert testimony, the black duct tape in the picture on the blanket was like that and the white, sticky side was up, black side down on the blanket, and that's what we see.

As to how sticky it was from the roll: I put it on my mouth and it was indeed quite strong. It hurt to pull it off. I don't advise trying it. Ouch!

Since many items were removed from the home by Pam Paugh, we cannot say for certain what was in those. She certainly could have unknowingly spirited away many things in something like the golf club bag: Bloomies undies; a roll of duct tape; a roll of cord; a dark cloth; etc.

Did she? We'll never know, will we?

But one thing we do know, and the Ramseys, Wood, and the RST are the source for it: the alleged actual package of remaining underwear, the (children's 12-14) Bloomies which Patsy bought in New York for her niece, from which the size 12-14 pair found on JonBenet allegedly came, were "found" in the Ramseys' "belongings" by the Ramseys/an investigator who worked for them. The story goes this package was found some time after LE released the house to the Ramseys, and that LE had somehow missed gathering them, though LE said in Atlanta they had collected every pair of underwear in JonBenet's panty drawer. (The story as to exactly when and where these were found changes and has few, if any, specific details...as per RST usual.)

That size 12-14 Bloomies package was allegedly then kept from LE for five years, though the Ramseys and their lawyers and investigators admitted they well knew that package was important evidence in the murder case. Even when questioned EXTENSIVELY about the Bloomies and told the significance of them by Boulder LE in Atlanta in 2000, the Ramseys still withheld that evidence for another 2+ years until they were given to Lacy. (The Bloomies were so large that there is no practical way JonBenet could possibly have worn them while upright and moving, though Patsy claimed JonBenet put them on herself and wore them to the White's home that evening, as well as when Patsy changed the sleeping JonBenet into the longjohns. The question remains: who put them on her and when?)

My point is this: we cannot state conclusively the Ramseys did not have means and opportunity to remove a roll of duct tape, a roll of cord, etc., from the home after the murder. We cannot state conclusively LE did not miss finding those items, among other important evidence, when the Ramseys themselves have admitted to removing items from the home and knowingly withholding evidence for five years.
 
  • #375
Wow, you've got that tape unsticky no matter if it was fresh off the roll or contaminated with fibers

. Unsticky tape fresh off the roll doesn't sound like tape, does it. I mean, new tape is supposed to be sticky, otherwise its not tape, right?

You want me to believe that brand new tape off the roll, tape that was just manufactured a month before, was not sticky? I'm sorry I can't believe it. Who would?

Um, Holdon, the tape that was tested, wasn't very sticky straight off the roll to BEGIN with. Couple that with the fact that Patsy's fibers...along with unsourced tan fibers ... were found on the already not very adhesive tape, and you have unsticky tape. WHO SAYS that it had just came off the roll? You have NO PROOF of that, whereas I DO have proof that it was NOT sticky. Common sense should tell you Holdon, that ANY type of tape, that has fibers from two different sources on the sticky side of it....is going to make it not very sticky at all. The tape had been pulled off of something and placed onto her mouth. Her AG doll had tan fibers consistant with those found on the "sticky" side of the tape.
 
  • #376
Well there is a difference in the stickiness of tape. I've noticed a great difference in various brands of duct tape. Some tape is so sticky that it's very hard to remove. Other tape barely sticks. Who would believe it? Pretty much anybody familiar with tape.

If the tape in question was low tack tape to begin with, then it was on something else before being removed and placed on JBR's mouth, then it would be unsticky (or minimally sticky) by that time.

Wasn't the American girl doll made of tan cloth? [/quote]

Why yes it was.
 
  • #377
Um, Holdon, the tape that was tested, wasn't very sticky straight off the roll to BEGIN with. Couple that with the fact that Patsy's fibers...along with unsourced tan fibers ... were found on the already not very adhesive tape, and you have unsticky tape. WHO SAYS that it had just came off the roll? You have NO PROOF of that, whereas I DO have proof that it was NOT sticky. Common sense should tell you Holdon, that ANY type of tape, that has fibers from two different sources on the sticky side of it....is going to make it not very sticky at all. The tape had been pulled off of something and placed onto her mouth. Her AG doll had tan fibers consistant with those found on the "sticky" side of the tape.

Please tell me your proof isn't 'common sense'. Proof that it was not sticky could only take the form of an official remark based on the actual tape found at the crime scene, not some other tape various people 'tried'. Was there some remark made by the investigators who have access to the tape in question, that it was not sticky because of excessive fiber contamination?

Good luck on that one.
 
  • #378
Just some thoughts, for what they're worth...my opinion, and nothing more:

Here is a page with autopsy photos--WARNING, GRAPHIC!!

http://zyberzoom.com/JonBenet.html

No doubt y'all have seen these before. The first one appears to show saliva and mucous had dribbled down the right side of JonBenet's face from the nose and mouth, as if she were lying down at that point on her back, with her head turned to the right. Thomas also said there was a drop of blood-tinged mucous or saliva on her upper right sleeve; I'm deducing this was from her head being turned to the right and the fluid dripping down the face, onto the upraised arm/sleeve.

If saliva ran down the right side of JonBenet's face from her mouth, she didn't have duct tape on her mouth yet, did she? So why was she dribbling saliva down her face in that position unless she was unconscious before the duct tape was applied? And why apply duct tape to an unconscious child?

These are questions that I'd like to see the experts explain, those who did the autopsy, studied the lab reports, and know what they're talking about from experience, objectively testifying under oath, with no dog in this hunt.

The "black duct tape" has a "white" side to it, or it used to, at any rate. Years ago, some of us wondered about the "white" tape on the blanket. So I bought some black duct tape: the cloth kind. It was indeed white or pale/ivory on the sticky side. So I can only assume, without the ever elusive expert testimony, the black duct tape in the picture on the blanket was like that and the white, sticky side was up, black side down on the blanket, and that's what we see.

As to how sticky it was from the roll: I put it on my mouth and it was indeed quite strong. It hurt to pull it off. I don't advise trying it. Ouch!

Since many items were removed from the home by Pam Paugh, we cannot say for certain what was in those. She certainly could have unknowingly spirited away many things in something like the golf club bag: Bloomies undies; a roll of duct tape; a roll of cord; a dark cloth; etc.

Did she? We'll never know, will we?

But one thing we do know, and the Ramseys, Wood, and the RST are the source for it: the alleged actual package of remaining underwear, the (children's 12-14) Bloomies which Patsy bought in New York for her niece, from which the size 12-14 pair found on JonBenet allegedly came, were "found" in the Ramseys' "belongings" by the Ramseys/an investigator who worked for them. The story goes this package was found some time after LE released the house to the Ramseys, and that LE had somehow missed gathering them, though LE said in Atlanta they had collected every pair of underwear in JonBenet's panty drawer. (The story as to exactly when and where these were found changes and has few, if any, specific details...as per RST usual.)

That size 12-14 Bloomies package was allegedly then kept from LE for five years, though the Ramseys and their lawyers and investigators admitted they well knew that package was important evidence in the murder case. Even when questioned EXTENSIVELY about the Bloomies and told the significance of them by Boulder LE in Atlanta in 2000, the Ramseys still withheld that evidence for another 2+ years until they were given to Lacy. (The Bloomies were so large that there is no practical way JonBenet could possibly have worn them while upright and moving, though Patsy claimed JonBenet put them on herself and wore them to the White's home that evening, as well as when Patsy changed the sleeping JonBenet into the longjohns. The question remains: who put them on her and when?)

My point is this: we cannot state conclusively the Ramseys did not have means and opportunity to remove a roll of duct tape, a roll of cord, etc., from the home after the murder. We cannot state conclusively LE did not miss finding those items, among other important evidence, when the Ramseys themselves have admitted to removing items from the home and knowingly withholding evidence for five years.

KK thanks for posting this and chiming in on the subject. You have a wonderful point...about the saliva on the side of JB's face. Kinda hard for saliva to run out of your mouth and onto your face, if you have a piece of tape across it....UNLESS it was already there to begin with. :clap: I am sure holdon will come up with a "logical" reason for this happening, though.
 
  • #379
Please tell me your proof isn't 'common sense'. Proof that it was not sticky could only take the form of an official remark based on the actual tape found at the crime scene, not some other tape various people 'tried'. Was there some remark made by the investigators who have access to the tape in question, that it was not sticky because of excessive fiber contamination?

Good luck on that one.

Whatever. NO my proof is NOT JUST using my common sense (in fact, you should try using YOURS sometime, its really not that hard). My proof is in the FACT that Patsy's fibers and unsourced tan fibers were found on the "sticky" side of the tape. Do me a favor...take a piece of similar tape, and stick it to two different pieces of cloth, and then place it over your mouth and take it off...and then YOU tell ME if its sticky or not. AND BTW..it was placed on her mouth AFTER she was unconsious.
 
  • #380
Whatever. NO my proof is NOT JUST using my common sense (in fact, you should try using YOURS sometime, its really not that hard). My proof is in the FACT that Patsy's fibers and unsourced tan fibers were found on the "sticky" side of the tape. Do me a favor...take a piece of similar tape, and stick it to two different pieces of cloth, and then place it over your mouth and take it off...and then YOU tell ME if its sticky or not. AND BTW..it was placed on her mouth AFTER she was unconsious.

I just waxed my chin with some duct tape (ouch), but was able to remove or dislodge it fairly easily. My tongue just pushed it off.

I don't think we understand what the tape was for, then, because its not part of a staging of a brutal murder. Remember, staging a 'brutal murder' is what RDI is all about. NOT staging a 'botched kidnapping turned murder,' as is now more recently claimed.

The tape is very important to understand, because its not really part of a 'brutal murder' staging, as RDIclaims.

RDI wants things both ways. I don't think you can have 'brutal murder' staging with the tape, nor can you have 'botched kidnapping turned murder' with the brutality of the headbash and the neck furrow. Neither scenario makes any sense.
 

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