I am so Angry

[Dara]

Yes, Dara, I did; however, the document itself says that it is not addressing waiver in environmental disasters. I am looking for something that does. No success so far.

Me, too. I wish the footnote that said that report didn't cover natural disasters, but there are all kinds of arrangements and programs that do. :banghead:

 

[BarnGoddess]

You know, the more I read in this thread, the more confused I get. Those of us who understand (that is stayed awake during civics class), should just defer to those who didn't. I say: Let's let the President take the blame for the whole mess, including the fact that we have hurricanes as big as Katrina that are allowed to hit New Orleans. You know he's going to get the blame either way, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I heard his father answer questions from the media when he and former President Clinton announced the Katrina Fund. He said he could take it. He also said to issue your complaints to his mother, Barbara. So go ahead, lay it on him. He personally merged FEMA and Homeland Security, no one else did. He also should have handled the levee crisis 40 years ago. I know he was in school then, but he should have been aware and handled it at least a year ago. Just taken those "pesky" environmentalists to task and overridden their protests and lobbying against any project that involved the Corp of Engineers.

Make a list those of you who blame the President for this, and we'll see how much he's personally responsible for. Got to be lots of stuff on that list.

 

[TexMex]

Source: The following information is excerpted from A Guide to Federal Aid in Disasters, FEMA, 4/95.

Requirements: In order for the President to declare a federal major disaster or emergency, the Governor of the requesting state must submit the following:

Local Emergency Declaration
State of Emergency Proclamation
The Governor's written request for federal assistance must also include:

Certification of implementation of the State Emergency Plan.
Description of how the disaster caused needs beyond State/local capabilities.
A description of State/local resources already committed.
Preliminary estimates of supplementary Federal assistance needed.
Certification of compliance with cost-sharing requirements of the Stafford Act.
Basis for request: The situation is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the state and affected local governments, and

Federal assistance under the Stafford Act is necessary to supplement the efforts and available resources of the state, affected local governments, disaster relief organizations, and compensation by insurance.

Definitions: For the purposes of a Presidential Declaration of a Major Disaster or Emergency, the following definitions apply:

Major disaster A major disaster is defined as "any natural catastrophe (including any hurricane, tornado, storm, high water, wind driven water, tidal wave, tsunami, earthquake, volcanic eruption, landslide, mudslide, snowstorm, or drought), or, regardless of cause, any fire, flood, or explosion, in any part of the U.S. which in the determination of the President causes damage of sufficient severity and magnitude to warrant major disaster assistance under this Act to supplement the efforts and available resources of States, local governments, and disaster relief organizations in alleviating the damage, loss, hardship, or suffering caused thereby."
Emergency An emergency is defined as "any occasion or instance for which, in the determination of the President, Federal assistance is needed to supplement State and local efforts and capabilities to save lives and to protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in any part of the U.S."

 

[JBean]

That's the way I interpreted it too. The other document (National Response Plan) seems to address this situation better and is a much newer document. I still don't believe a president can override a governor's authority ... but I could be wrong.

The catch 22 is that a decision for the feds to override the governor is based on the information supplied to them by.............the governor.

 

[kgeaux]

The president does have the right in certain circumstances to waive this, but I am not certain that this would have been deemed a federal emergency. I would be interested if anyone knows of instances where there was a waiver and what the circumstances were.

I know foregin attack would constitute a federal emergency. Someone mentioned Bush Sr. declaring a fed. emergency and sending in troops after the Watts riots--the California governor was in agreement so it's not a precedence for this case. I am unaware of any federal move EVER into a state without state permission, not only without permission, but with a very specific "permission withheld. "

Dara and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. She needs time for things to wash out at the local and state level before she can be sure that she can place blame on those officials, I do not need additonal time. She believes the above mentioned Watts riots provide presedence, I do not.

 

[less0305]

I don't live in Arkansas....but this is in their state emergency response plan.

2. Upon declaration of a major disaster or emergency by the president, a federal-state assistance agreement will be executed by the Governor and the Federal Emergency management Agency through its Region VI. In the agreement, the Governor designates the State Coordinating Officer (SCO) who works with the Federal Coordinating Officer (FCO) in the coordination of recovery operations for state and local government agencies, affected individuals, and qualified non-profit organizations.


4. Arkansas Military Department

a. The Governor is the only authority who can commit National Guard personnel and resources. He may order use of such resources when requested by the County Judge, Sheriff, Mayor or as recommended by the Adjutant General, Director ADEM or other department/agency directors with state government

I didn't bold that sentence - their own document does. You can go there and look at it yourself. But I imagine lots of states have basically the same language in their emergency response plans.

More...

DIRECTION AND CONTROL (See Annex A)

A. The Governor is the chief executive and has broad powers under Arkansas Code Annotated 12-75-101 et.al. These powers include the authority to declare a state of emergency, direct and allocate resources in the state, and to request federal assistance.

I did bold that!!!

 

[marrigotti]

I know foregin attack would constitute a federal emergency. Someone mentioned Bush Sr. declaring a fed. emergency and sending in troops after the Watts riots--the California governor was in agreement so it's not a precedence for this case. I am unaware of any federal move EVER into a state without state permission, not only without permission, but with a very specific "permission withheld. "

Dara and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. She needs time for things to wash out at the local and state level before she can be sure that she can place blame on those officials, I do not need additonal time. She believes the above mentioned Watts riots provide presedence, I do not.

The Watts riots were not a natural disaster, so I don't see how they provide precedence.

 

[JBean]

I know foregin attack would constitute a federal emergency. Someone mentioned Bush Sr. declaring a fed. emergency and sending in troops after the Watts riots--the California governor was in agreement so it's not a precedence for this case. I am unaware of any federal move EVER into a state without state permission, not only without permission, but with a very specific "permission withheld. "

Dara and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. She needs time for things to wash out at the local and state level before she can be sure that she can place blame on those officials, I do not need additonal time. She believes the above mentioned Watts riots provide presedence, I do not.

Natural disaster, war , riots they are all handled completely differently. No comparison actually.
I agree with you 100% Kgeaux, but I don't think it's opinion i think it's fact. . Just knowing there were hundreds of buses not used to evacuate the locals by way of some preplanned method speaks volumes to me as to how little was done at the local level.

 

[kgeaux]

You know, the more I read in this thread, the more confused I get. Those of us who understand (that is stayed awake during civics class), should just defer to those who didn't. I say: Let's let the President take the blame for the whole mess, including the fact that we have hurricanes as big as Katrina that are allowed to hit New Orleans. You know he's going to get the blame either way, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I heard his father answer questions from the media when he and former President Clinton announced the Katrina Fund. He said he could take it. He also said to issue your complaints to his mother, Barbara. So go ahead, lay it on him. He personally merged FEMA and Homeland Security, no one else did. He also should have handled the levee crisis 40 years ago. I know he was in school then, but he should have been aware and handled it at least a year ago. Just taken those "pesky" environmentalists to task and overridden their protests and lobbying against any project that involved the Corp of Engineers.

Make a list those of you who blame the President for this, and we'll see how much he's personally responsible for. Got to be lots of stuff on that list.

We have a list of presidents in my local paper that have not dealt with the levee problem. As concernedperson says, this problem has been known and talked about and nothing has been done FOREVER. I think the first president who was asked for help was Truman! I'll walk out to the end of my driveway and rescue the paper from the recycle bin afterwhile and list them out for you!

 

[less0305]

I know foregin attack would constitute a federal emergency. Someone mentioned Bush Sr. declaring a fed. emergency and sending in troops after the Watts riots--the California governor was in agreement so it's not a precedence for this case. I am unaware of any federal move EVER into a state without state permission, not only without permission, but with a very specific "permission withheld. "

Dara and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. She needs time for things to wash out at the local and state level before she can be sure that she can place blame on those officials, I do not need additonal time. She believes the above mentioned Watts riots provide presedence, I do not.

I agree so much kgeaux. Even during times of drills for terrorists attacks, governors have made it clear and concise that the federal government should NOT overstep the governor's power. It is in black and white in congressional hearings on that very subject.

 

[Dara]

Dara and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. She needs time for things to wash out at the local and state level before she can be sure that she can place blame on those officials, I do not need additonal time. She believes the above mentioned Watts riots provide presedence, I do not.

What? Kgeaux, please don't do that. Please don't put words in my mouth you KNOW I didn't say. I didn't say one word about the Watts riots, I did not say they provide precedence.

Please take back your misstatement.

I see now that nothing is more important to some people than absolving Bush. Even after a weekend of shots at me, I didn't see it. I thought maybe people did want the truth and did care about what happened. But I see that some don't. The tragedy of this hurricane goes on and on.

 

[kgeaux]

Natural disaster, war , riots they are all handled completely differently. No comparison actually.
I agree with you 100% Kgeaux, but I don't think it's opinion i think it's fact. . Just knowing there were hundreds of buses not used to evacuate the locals by way of some preplanned method speaks volumes to me as to how little was done at the local level.

Total agreement. The Louisiana plan is wonderful on paper, and many things went right. But many things went wrong, right from the get go. The second that lawlessness began to occur, we should have given over control to the feds. Blanco is on record as saying she did not want to give the feds. "law enforcement" rights in Louisiana, and that's why she withheld permission. And that lawlessness is where the chit hit the fan big time.

 

[Dara]

The Watts riots were not a natural disaster, so I don't see how they provide precedence.

Since I never said that, and kgeaux either made an error or took a cheap shot, I hope you are directing that at her and not me.

 

[kgeaux]

Since I never said that, and kgeaux either made an error or took a cheap shot, I hope you are directing that at her and not me.

It's in the link you provided, Dara. The one that you are using as proof that the president can take authority over a state.

 

[kgeaux]

What? Kgeaux, please don't do that. Please don't put words in my mouth you KNOW I didn't say. I didn't say one word about the Watts riots, I did not say they provide precedence.

Please take back your misstatement.

I see now that nothing is more important to some people than absolving Bush. Even after a weekend of shots at me, I didn't see it. I thought maybe people did want the truth and did care about what happened. But I see that some don't. The tragedy of this hurricane goes on and on.

I am not absolving him. He does bear blame.

And the riot thing is in your link. It's the link you provided showing that in your opinion, the pres. can take over a state. It's the one you've been saying we all agree on since the weekend!

 

[BarnGoddess]

I agree so much kgeaux. Even during times of drills for terrorists attacks, governors have made it clear and concise that the federal government should NOT overstep the governor's power. It is in black and white in congressional hearings on that very subject.

Well said........How many times have we heard: "The Governor of ________ has asked the President to declare ____________a disaster area." That would be for a flood, blizzard, tornado, etc. That is the standard operating procedure. It's the way to get help and federal funds lickity split.

Originally Posted by kgeaux
I know foregin attack would constitute a federal emergency. Someone mentioned Bush Sr. declaring a fed. emergency and sending in troops after the Watts riots--the California governor was in agreement so it's not a precedence for this case. I am unaware of any federal move EVER into a state without state permission, not only without permission, but with a very specific "permission withheld. "


Kgeaux, which Watts riots? I don't remember any when Bush Sr. was President. Only the ones back in the 60's.

 

[Dara]

It's in the link you provided, Dara. The one that you are using as proof that the president can take authority over a state.

Ah, ok, cheap shot.

I've been putting up links and sharing information to try to figure this out.

I guess that's not the important part for some people, but it has been all along to me.

 

[TexMex]

I see now that nothing is more important to some people than absolving Bush. Even after a weekend of shots at me, I didn't see it. I thought maybe people did want the truth and did care about what happened. But I see that some don't. The tragedy of this hurricane goes on and on.

So unless we agree with you that Bush bears 99.9% of the blame then we don't want the truth or care about what happened to the people affected?
It's a tragedy that some feel the PRIMARY responsibility for the safety of the residents of New Orleans, La rests with the city, parish and state officials they elected?
I haven't seen anybody say Bush is blameless--just that there are others ahead of him on the list.

I hope that's not what you mean--that we don't care...

You know why the Astrodome can handle the Katrinians? Because it is an evacuation point for Galveston and has supplies of food, water, meds, generators. The city officials here followed the guidelines to BE PREPARED.

 

[kgeaux]

Ah, ok, cheap shot.

I've been putting up links and sharing information to try to figure this out.

I guess that's not the important part for some people, but it has been all along to me.

Sorry, Dara. It took me awhile to find it. This thread has 28 pages, and I've reviewed 14 of them before I found the post! I wasn't trying to take a cheap shot, I promise. I thought I could quickly find the link and edit.....but as I said, it took way longer than I thought.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=793370&postcount=331

Here's the post with the link. I hope it helps to clear up what I based my statement on.

 

[kgeaux]

Well said........How many times have we heard: "The Governor of ________ has asked the President to declare ____________a disaster area." That would be for a flood, blizzard, tornado, etc. That is the standard operating procedure. It's the way to get help and federal funds lickity split.

Originally Posted by kgeaux
I know foregin attack would constitute a federal emergency. Someone mentioned Bush Sr. declaring a fed. emergency and sending in troops after the Watts riots--the California governor was in agreement so it's not a precedence for this case. I am unaware of any federal move EVER into a state without state permission, not only without permission, but with a very specific "permission withheld. "


Kgeaux, which Watts riots? I don't remember any when Bush Sr. was President. Only the ones back in the 60's.

I am showing my age here. I clearly remember the Watts Riots!! The riots in the link provided, however, are identified as Los Angeles Riots.....my bad.

In an article posted on its website Sunday, Newsweek magazine notes that legal wrangling was also going on within the Bush administration as the situation in New Orleans deteriorated:
President Bush could have "federalized" the National Guard in an instant. That's what his father, President George H.W. Bush, did after the Los Angeles riots in 1992.... But after Katrina, a strange paralysis set in. For days, Bush's top advisers argued over legal niceties about who was in charge, according to three White House officials who declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the negotiations. Beginning early in the week, Justice Department lawyers presented arguments for federalizing the Guard, but Defense Department lawyers fretted about untrained 19-year-olds trying to enforce local laws, according to a senior law-enforcement official who requested anonymity citing the delicate nature of the discussions.