I am so Angry

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  • #681
kgeaux said:
Sorry, Dara. It took me awhile to find it. This thread has 28 pages, and I've reviewed 14 of them before I found the post! I wasn't trying to take a cheap shot, I promise. I thought I could quickly find the link and edit.....but as I said, it took way longer than I thought.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=793370&postcount=331

Here's the post with the link. I hope it helps to clear up what I based my statement on.
It just doesn't get any nicer the more we read. More red tape, more political moves and more we are distanced from the laws that are suppose to protect us and our loved ones.And we haven't even got to sex offenders or murderors, these are the politicians that spin for us. I am going to pray alot more tonight.
 
  • #682
TexMex said:
So unless we agree with you that Bush bears 99.9% of the blame then we don't want the truth or care about what happened to the people affected?
Nope. And if you are willing to blame him for what he's done wrong, it doesn't apply to you. BTW, I don't even give him that much blame. I give him some, and that number may change, and was really trying to determine if he could have stepped in. I found some more documentation that would help us, but really, it's getting counterproductive. And when I asked a few tough questions this morning I could have predicted it.

It's a tradgedy that some feel the PRIMARY responsibility for the safety of the residents of New Orleans, La rests with the city, parish and state officials they elected?
If not primary, then ultimate.
I haven't seen anybody say Bush is blameless--just that there are others ahead of him on the list.
You may have missed a post or two.

Well, given Bush's decimation of FEMA and appointment of Brown, etc, I'd put them in the middle with him on each end.
You know why the Astrodome can handle the Katrinians? Because it is an evacuation point for Galveston and has supplies of food, water, meds, generators. The city officials here followed the guidelines to BE PREPARED.
That's really great. The FEMA study from 2004 said they needed a lot of preparation for NO and said they'd be doing it. Looks like another area where FEMA said they would, but it's the local government who should, or something like that.
 
  • #683
WSJ:

The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his/her emergency operations center.

The actions and inactions of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin are a national disgrace due to their failure to implement the previously established evacuation plans of the state and city. Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved.

In addition to the plans, local, state and federal officials held a simulated hurricane drill 13 months ago, in which widespread flooding supposedly trapped 300,000 people inside New Orleans. The exercise simulated the evacuation of more than a million residents. The problems identified in the simulation apparently were not solved.

A year ago, as Hurricane Ivan approached, New Orleans ordered an evacuation but did not use city or school buses to help people evacuate. As a result many of the poorest citizens were unable to evacuate. Fortunately, the hurricane changed course and did not hit New Orleans, but both Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin acknowledged the need for a better evacuation plan. Again, they did not take corrective actions. In 1998, during a threat by Hurricane George, 14,000 people were sent to the Superdome and theft and vandalism were rampant due to inadequate security. Again, these problems were not corrected.
 
  • #684
kgeaux said:
Sorry, Dara. It took me awhile to find it. This thread has 28 pages, and I've reviewed 14 of them before I found the post! I wasn't trying to take a cheap shot, I promise. I thought I could quickly find the link and edit.....but as I said, it took way longer than I thought.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=793370&postcount=331

Here's the post with the link. I hope it helps to clear up what I based my statement on.
Not really. The Watts riots aren't mentioned in the text of the article. The article states that the president could have taken power and explains why. You can follow the links to the supplemental material, but it's supplemental.

But, hey, you got to sift through pages and pages of my posts. I hope it was worth it to not prove your point.
 
  • #685
Quote:




You know why the Astrodome can handle the Katrinians? Because it is an evacuation point for Galveston and has supplies of food, water, meds, generators. The city officials here followed the guidelines to BE PREPARED.

quote dara:
That's really great. The FEMA study from 2004 said they needed a lot of preparation for NO and said they'd be doing it. Looks like another area where FEMA said they would, but it's the local government who should, or something like that.
Dara, Tex said that officials in and of the government of TEXAS prepared their emergency shelter with the necessary supplies, not FEMA. It's not FEMA's responsibility to follow through to make sure the city and state followed the guidelines. Again, it was not FEMA's responsibility to do the work themselves. Like Texas, they should have done it themselves.
 
  • #686
FEMA Chief Waited Until After Storm Hit

By TED BRIDIS, Associated Press Writer


The government's disaster chief waited until hours after Hurricane Katrina had already struck the Gulf Coast before asking his boss to dispatch 1,000 Homeland Security employees to the region — and gave them two days to arrive, according to internal documents.

Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, sought the approval from Homeland Security Secretary Mike Chertoff roughly five hours after Katrina made landfall on Aug. 29. Brown said that among duties of these employees was to "convey a positive image" about the government's response for victims.

Before then, FEMA had positioned smaller rescue and communications teams across the Gulf Coast. But officials acknowledged Tuesday the first department-wide appeal for help came only as the storm raged.

Brown's memo to Chertoff described Katrina as "this near catastrophic event" but otherwise lacked any urgent language. The memo politely ended, "Thank you for your consideration in helping us to meet our responsibilities."

The initial responses of the government and Brown came under escalating criticism as the breadth of destruction and death grew. President Bush and Congress on Tuesday pledged separate investigations into the federal response to Katrina. "Governments at all levels failed," said Sen. Susan Collins (news, bio, voting record), R-Maine.

Homeland Security spokesman Russ Knocke said Brown had positioned front-line rescue teams and Coast Guard helicopters before the storm. Brown's memo on Aug. 29 aimed to assemble the necessary federal work force to support the rescues, establish communications and coordinate with victims and community groups, Knocke said.

Instead of rescuing people or recovering bodies, these employees would focus on helping victims find the help they needed, he said.

"There will be plenty of time to assess what worked and what didn't work," Knocke said. "Clearly there will be time for blame to be assigned and to learn from some of the successful efforts."

Brown's memo told employees that among their duties, they would be expected to "convey a positive image of disaster operations to government officials, community organizations and the general public."

"FEMA response and recovery operations are a top priority of the department and as we know, one of yours," Brown wrote Chertoff. He proposed sending 1,000 Homeland Security Department employees within 48 hours and 2,000 within seven days.

Knocke said the 48-hour period suggested for the Homeland employees was to ensure they had adequate training. "They were training to help the life-savers," Knocke said.

Employees required a supervisor's approval and at least 24 hours of disaster training in Maryland, Florida or Georgia. "You must be physically able to work in a disaster area without refrigeration for medications and have the ability to work in the outdoors all day," Brown wrote.

The same day Brown wrote Chertoff, Brown also urged local fire and rescue departments outside Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi not to send trucks or emergency workers into disaster areas without an explicit request for help from state or local governments. Brown said it was vital to coordinate fire and rescue efforts.

Meanwhile, the airline industry said the government's request for help evacuating storm victims didn't come until late Thursday afternoon. The president of the Air Transport Association, James May, said the Homeland Security Department called then to ask if the group could participate in an airlift for refugees.

___

On the Net:

FEMA: http://www.fema.gov

Homeland Security Department: http://www.dhs.gov
 
  • #687
Dara said:
Not really. The Watts riots aren't mentioned in the text of the article. The article states that the president could have taken power and explains why. You can follow the links to the supplemental material, but it's supplemental.

But, hey, you got to sift through pages and pages of my posts. I hope it was worth it to not prove your point.


You've possibly read by now when I said I mis-spoke when I said Watts. It was the riots in Los Angeles.

As I said, I disagree with you. I do not think a state of lawlessness in which a governor of a state seeks out federal oversight comes close to being the same situation in which there is a state emergency caused by weather and where the governor does not want federal oversight. I think the difference between these two scenarios quite adequately proves the point I was making, which was that no president has ever forced federal oversight over a state in weather related catastrophe.

I am comfortable disagreeing with you. Sorry if that upsets you.

In answer to your question in the pm: I am not uncomfortable at all when any public official, including the president, is critisized. I do not worship at the altar of Bush, and I have been critical of him myself.
 
  • #688
I think it was last Thursday, maybe it was Friday...it was about my first post or so on Katrina. I said my opinion, that I was sad to see that people were finger-pointing so early on, that politics was being strewn about. I wanted to wait to understand more.

I then got nitpicked about that, for several days, after I started agreeing that many of the problems coming to light were at the local level and up. At NOOOOO time did I ever say make Bush blameless. I have been consistent throughout, all will be blamed, and all rightly so. I don't want to go back and quote them, it's not worth the energy. But I wanted to wait, until we learned more. Have we learned a lot since Thursday and Friday? I think so. So couldn't I be entitled to make comments of what we were learning? He**, I don't know all the answers, no one here does. No one. We're all learning. Some want to do the blame game from bottom to top; some want to go top to bottom. I can respect that, if it's done in a respectful manner. And no matter what, it doesn't change anything that's already happened.

My heart can hurt for the victims, my heart can hurt for the nation that looks foolish, my heart can hurt for Bush, Blanco and Nagrin, and all politicians in the middle (for at least the last 40 years, I guess) who know, deep down inside, what coulda and shoulda been done, and what they did in setting priorities, egos, funds, etc. I doubt any of those people wanted this to happen. None.

I still go back to how I felt that Thursday or Friday, and that is just my own personal view. It still holds for me, myself, today. I think we will learn and find out more with each passing day. We have to! There are undoubtedly going to be Congressional hearings, SPIN SPIN SPIN from both sides, scholars and lawyers, activists, etc. I really try to listen with a neutral view, and take it in. I will come to my own conclusions. No one on this board will probably sway me one way or the other, honestly. And my conclusions may be off base, but they will be mine. I like to learn. To learn, IMO, often takes some analysis. This is too huge of an tragedy and of a complex nature for us to have figured it out on WS within 7-8 days. So why the rush to complete judgment on this? I don't think at all that anyone cares to go back and read my posts, but if they did, I think they'd see that oftentimes I would say "oh no," or "hmmm" or ? when I read something that maybe countered what I had thought I knew, etc. I have said "good point" when someone on "the other point of view" has said something that looked damning. I am not blind in my devotion, nor too stupid to think for myself, which was referenced, in general, to Bush supporters.

I had to say the above and get it off my chest. I am wearing my proverbial heart on my sleeve. We all are dealing with this situation differently, from our own personal experiences, past, outlook on life, educational level, etc. I do not like to argue, I really don't. If I had to pick a career over again, heck I'd probably be a social worker of some type. Well, I basically have been, in a lot of ways, LOL. I like to have respectful dialogue with most people. For a long time I was just a lurker here, didn't want to post. Maybe I should go back to that. I try not to lose sight that we really won't know the FACTS, in context, here on WS, for a long, long time. It'd be nice if one of us could solve all the problems here, but it's doubtful. Sorry.

I know I' m rambling, this has gone on way too long. I appreciate so many kind-hearted people here. It just bothers me that we can't live and learn with respect of our differences.

It appears this afternoon, some headway was maybe made, we were discussing documents, plans, etc. and trying to figure out what's what, rather that continually bashing each other. That was nice to see. I would love for the WSleuthers to sleuth in finding out info so that we're more informed.

Peace to all.

Signed,

Pollyanna (my outlook, not my name!)
 
  • #689
kgeaux said:
You've possibly read by now when I said I mis-spoke when I said Watts. It was the riots in Los Angeles.
And you've seen by now that I was looking for other links and questioning the issue long after the link you found.

I am comfortable disagreeing with you. Sorry if that upsets you.
I thought you would have learned your lesson about making assumptions, but apparently not. Wrong again.
 
  • #690
OK, good my blood is boiling. It just goes to all my previous posts about this nincompoop.A person who ignores real needs but covering the FEMA azz.

Just spoke with my daughter who is returning from Louisiana. There are people stranded all over the roads from Louisiana to Georgia begging for gas. There are convoys into the hundreds on the roads.Power trucks are converging but people on the side of the road aren't being helped. They have tried to evacuate but not a lot of help is available.

The trees are snapped for as far as the eye can see.The south thought Sherman was bad but Katrina is a really big 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬.Help is needed everywhere, just freaking everywhere.

And FEMA boy is spouting platitudes. Well, kiss my butt.
 
  • #691
DEPUTYDAWG said:
It appears this afternoon, some headway was maybe made, we were discussing documents, plans, etc. and trying to figure out what's what, rather that continually bashing each other. That was nice to see. I would love for the WSleuthers to sleuth in finding out info so that we're more informed.
Yes, that was nice. Sure didn't last long. I was one of those participating. I hadn't felt like doing so, and then a few posters seemed to be really interested. I've gotten responses back from the library that would help with figuring it out, but you know, I'm wondering if it's worth it. I'd be glad to continue with that, but not when I see underhanded garbage some will stoop to.
 
  • #692
DEPUTYDAWG said:
I think it was last Thursday, maybe it was Friday...it was about my first post or so on Katrina. I said my opinion, that I was sad to see that people were finger-pointing so early on, that politics was being strewn about. I wanted to wait to understand more.
DD, that was a truly GREEEEEEAAATT post. It expressed my sentiments so well. Thanks for saving me all that typing. :D
 
  • #693
Loved your post DeputyDawg!!!! :clap:
 
  • #694
Dara said:
Yes, that was nice. Sure didn't last long. I was one of those participating. I hadn't felt like doing so, and then a few posters seemed to be really interested. I've gotten responses back from the library that would help with figuring it out, but you know, I'm wondering if it's worth it. I'd be glad to continue with that, but not when I see underhanded garbage some will stoop to.


Dara, if you are talking about me, I haven't done anything underhanded. I'm not pm'ing you with private snide comments. Everything I have had to discuss with you has been above board and done publically. And I certainly haven't stooped to anything. I have not called you names, have I? or made crazy comments suggesting that YOU get therapy. I have explained why I disagree with you. We interpret something differently. You seem to be feeling very defensive about it in my opinion. You are posting snippy little replies that certainly sound upset when I tell you I am sorry if I upset you, and then accuse me of not learning my lesson about making assumptions. Now, because someone disagrees with you, you wonder if it's worth it to post the results of your research? If you want to here only comments that agree with your view, maybe you're expressing yourself in the wrong venue.

I am surely not the first person to disagree with you, and I can assure you that it is nothing personal. I am not the one taking it to a personal level.
 
  • #695
kgeaux said:
Dara, if you are talking about me, I haven't done anything underhanded. I'm not pm'ing you with private snide comments.
You aren't? Well, I believe since posting or otherwise revealing PMs in public is against the rules, I guess I can't really respond to this in the way I'd like.
 
  • #696
concernedperson said:
OK, good my blood is boiling. It just goes to all my previous posts about this nincompoop.A person who ignores real needs but covering the FEMA azz.

Just spoke with my daughter who is returning from Louisiana. There are people stranded all over the roads from Louisiana to Georgia begging for gas. There are convoys into the hundreds on the roads.Power trucks are converging but people on the side of the road aren't being helped. They have tried to evacuate but not a lot of help is available.

The trees are snapped for as far as the eye can see.The south thought Sherman was bad but Katrina is a really big 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬.Help is needed everywhere, just freaking everywhere.

And FEMA boy is spouting platitudes. Well, kiss my butt.

I don't think it's FEMA's job to rescue stranded drivers -- or the power company's either. Maybe they should call the highway patrol.

The same thing happened after Hurricane Dennis. This is commonplace when gas can't be delivered. That's why I canceled my vacation over Labor Day - plus the fact that some Katrinians probably needed that hotel room worse than I did.
 
  • #697
Dara said:
You aren't? Well, I believe since posting or otherwise revealing PMs in public is against the rules, I guess I can't really respond to this in the way I'd like.


I have not posted any PM's. I have just mentioned that I have done all of my communications with you publically.
 
  • #698
kgeaux said:
I have not posted any PM's. I have just mentioned that I have done all of my communications with you publically.
Ah, you edited. LOL
 
  • #699
Ntegrity said:
I don't think it's FEMA's job to rescue stranded drivers -- or the power company's either. Maybe they should call the highway patrol.

The same thing happened after Hurricane Dennis. This is commonplace when gas can't be delivered. That's why I canceled my vacation over Labor Day - plus the fact that some Katrinians probably needed that hotel room worse than I did.

But everyone is blaming the victims. Personal responsibility and all that. What happens when you have limited means and the gas can only get you so far? I am more about helping then condemning. BTW, I haven't had a vacation since 1997. I am enduring personal responsibility daily. So the lost of your hotel room isn't especially appealing right now.
 
  • #700
concernedperson said:
What happens when you have limited means and the gas can only get you so far?
It doesn't matter if you're filthy rich. There's a gas shortage throughout the entire southeast. Gas pumps are dry as a bone. Katrina is responsible for that.
 
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