I can't find a hole in this theory...

[Whaleshark]

What I was trying to point out, as I explained in my initial post in this thread, was that I don't see how PR is implicated in the RN. People have said "it's PR's paper and pen" but like you've just pointed out, Whaleshark, everyone had access to the paper and pen, not just PR.

yes, they did... and I was trying to point out, that, because of that fact, your statement below, then...:

We are supposed to believe that PR goes to lengths to stage an intruder but is daft enough to use paper and a pen that can be traced back to her? Oh come on. In that case why didn't she just leave a signed confession and not a RN? Surely she is going to try and make it NOT look like she had any involvement if she had written it??.

...Could also apply in the same argument about John then:

"We are supposed to believe that JR goes to lengths to stage an intruder but is daft enough to use paper and a pen that can be traced back to him? Oh come on. In that case why didn't he just leave a signed confession and not a RN? Surely he is going to try and make it NOT look like he had any involvement if he had written it?"

See how that works.

 

[Britt]

...Write "if you call police" she dies. Then call police, so there would be an excuse to find her dead, as the kidnappers said they would do...

Exactly.

Discord of situation - running out of time - supposed to be on plane to meet other kids. Not enough time to dispose of body to be found later because 'kidnappers warned not to call police or they'd kill her'. Make the 911 call, and hide the body in the house - cops won't look through the house for kidnapped body, They believed they could figure out later how to get her out of the house and dumped somewhere.

I agree with this. I think it's why JR disappeared for a long time that morning, desperately looking for a way to complete their "work in progress."

 

[Chrishope]

yes, they did... and I was trying to point out, that, because of that fact, your statement below, then...:



...Could also apply in the same argument about John then:

"We are supposed to believe that JR goes to lengths to stage an intruder but is daft enough to use paper and a pen that can be traced back to him? Oh come on. In that case why didn't he just leave a signed confession and not a RN? Surely he is going to try and make it NOT look like he had any involvement if he had written it?"

See how that works.

Right, so we can quit saying it was Patsy's paper and pen, etc. It was the Ramsey's paper and pen, etc.

So, going along with doc's theory (which I think is a pretty good theory) wouldn't PR have to recognize that the RN is on "their" paper? Or at least paper very like their own? Wouldn't she have to recognize that it was written with a sharpie, vice a ballpoint?

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

In your post 337 you said "DocG's theory does NOT hinge on anything to do with JR being afraid that JB was going to tell on him. Not a thing."

I agreed that it does not hinge on JR being afraid. Perhaps I should have added "of JB telling on him".

I said it hinges on JR killing JBR, which I think you and I agree on.

Some of us were speculating on why JR killed her - what his motive might be.

So you seem to agree JR is the killer, and you state that doc's theory doesn't hinge on JR being afraid of JB telling on him, so why are you asking me for a motive that doesn't include fear?

What is your theory?

Would John molesting and then the actual rape of been his Christmas present to himself? Now that is sick and deranged and I don't think John Ramsey is sick or deranged in the head. I don't think he was molesting JonBenet.

John Ramsey says he carried a sleeping JonBenet to bed and/or he read a book to her. Did LE find any fibers from John's shirt on JonBenet's bed?

 

[Chrishope]

Would John molesting and then the actual rape of been his Christmas present to himself? Now that is sick and deranged and I don't think John Ramsey is sick or deranged in the head. I don't think he was molesting JonBenet.

John Ramsey says he carried a sleeping JonBenet to bed and/or he read a book to her. Did LE find any fibers from John's shirt on JonBenet's bed?

It wouldn't matter if they did, the fiber didn't have to be there from that night. It doesn't matter if they didn't, because despite Locard's Principle, fibers don't always transfer. If they found several hundred black shirt fibers in the bed, that would be something. A handful of fibers in her bed could be there from secondary transfer. Absence of fibers doesn't mean he wasn't in her bedroom.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,
You win a cigar. No agent is named its just refers to profilers, here is some quotes, they offer some meat for discussion.

Perfect Murder, Perfect Town


Perfect Murder, Perfect Town



.

UKGuy, it wasn't John Douglas. It was someone from CASKU who made the statement but I can't recall. It seems that I read it in Thomas's book.

 

[DeeDee249]

It wouldn't matter if they did, the fiber didn't have to be there from that night. It doesn't matter if they didn't, because despite Locard's Principle, fibers don't always transfer. If they found several hundred black shirt fibers in the bed, that would be something. A handful of fibers in her bed could be there from secondary transfer. Absence of fibers doesn't mean he wasn't in her bedroom.

But the fibers were found INSIDE the crotch of the brand-NEW panties on JB. That says it all to me.

 

[DeeDee249]

What I was trying to point out, as I explained in my initial post in this thread, was that I don't see how PR is implicated in the RN. People have said "it's PR's paper and pen" but like you've just pointed out, Whaleshark, everyone had access to the paper and pen, not just PR.

It is also her handwriting. To see examples, there is a thread here- and there are also examples here http://www.acandyrose.com
in the JonBenet archives.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume5/j5_1_2.htm

"...[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]the transverse diameter of the average adult erect penis is approximately 3.5 cm (35 mm)..." The maglite isn't that much bigger at 39.67mm

I understand that the injuries didn't look like rape, to Dr. Meyer, but rather digital penetration, but are you saying that insertion of an average size penis would not be possible?
[/FONT]

Nedra Paugh made a remark of the size of Burke's penis. How embarrassing to know your grandmother made jokes about you.

 

[redheadedgal]

UKGuy, it wasn't John Douglas. It was someone from CASCU who made the statement but I can't recall. It seems that I read it in Thomas's book.

p. 241-242... no specific CASKU team members named in regard to the statement just that that was their profile for/of the case

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I didn't know about it in '96, but I've led a sheltered life I don't know how well known it was.

It's not a theory that has a lot of appeal to me, but I can't rule it out.

I thought the act was to do it to yourself and not others for pleasure and not getting off on the other person's distress.

 

[BOESP]

p. 241-242... no specific CASKU team members named in regard to the statement just that that was their profile for/of the case

Thanks a bunch! My memory isn't what it used to be. I can't even spell Ciller errr Killer correctly.:waitasec:

 

[redheadedgal]

I thought the act was to do it to yourself and not others for pleasure and not getting off on the other person's distress.

there are two types: alone or with a partner, both dangerous:

http://www.ehow.com/about_5419009_asphyxiation.html


ftr, i don't for one second believe JR was engaging in this behavior with jonbenet.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

there are two types: alone or with a partner. it is said that the practise is just as dangerous with a partner as alone:

http://www.ehow.com/about_5419009_asphyxiation.html


ftr, i don't for one second believe JR was engaging in this behavior with jonbenet.[/QUTE


I don't see it either. I'm looking more and more at Burke as the molester and for the head bash.

 

[Whaleshark]

Right, so we can quit saying it was Patsy's paper and pen, etc. It was the Ramsey's paper and pen, etc.

So, going along with doc's theory (which I think is a pretty good theory) wouldn't PR have to recognize that the RN is on "their" paper? Or at least paper very like their own? Wouldn't she have to recognize that it was written with a sharpie, vice a ballpoint?

Yes, the Ramseys' paper and pen. More accurate.

Yes, of course she would. Not only that - That's why I asked docg that if she was not involved, wouldn't she recognize his handwriting and linguistics, even if he would have tried to disguise his handwriting...
If we think we recognize whose handwriting it is, a copy on the Internet, of people we don't know, didn't live with, and have only heard about, wouldn't then Patsy recognize her own husband's handwriting, words, manner of speaking, paper, etc.... More than anyone else?

Doc's answer to that was she may not have noticed because she wouldn't have expected it and may have seen only what she wanted to.

Could be - hard to believe though... Everyone would have figured out his handwriting, including police, except her?

I don't know...

 

[dodie20]

there are two types: alone or with a partner. it is said that the practise is just as dangerous with a partner as alone:

http://www.ehow.com/about_5419009_asphyxiation.html


ftr, i don't for one second believe JR was engaging in this behavior with jonbenet.[/QUTE


I don't see it either. I'm looking more and more at Burke as the molester and for the head bash.

IMO, this is one of the hardest things to fathom...JR doing this to his 6 yr old daughter. Anything is possible, but it doesn't make much sense. And then add the 'digital' penetration, and it really gets unbelievable. I would think someone who was going to those extremes and risking murder, would also go to sexual extremes. That's just MOO, but the 2 things seem to be unbalanced. I do remember as a kid, a lot of the other kids I knew, played different 'pass out' games. I even had 1 friend, whose 8 yr old sister, taught her how to grab somebody from the temples, (just right), and he'd drop like a sack of potatoes. I, myself, invented a game called 'dizzy spells'. We'd stand at the top of our staircase, spin around and around, then close our eyes and walk down backwards...wondering if we would make it safely to the bottom, or tumble from the top. Kids do stupid things. They huff gasoline and chemicals, they invent dangerous games, and they make each other pass out. Is this what BR was doing? IDK, but it's possible. I've wondered if this was some variation of the 'choking game', that went completely awry. If not for that head bash, I'd be more inclined to think so. moo

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Right, so we can quit saying it was Patsy's paper and pen, etc. It was the Ramsey's paper and pen, etc.

So, going along with doc's theory (which I think is a pretty good theory) wouldn't PR have to recognize that the RN is on "their" paper? Or at least paper very like their own? Wouldn't she have to recognize that it was written with a sharpie, vice a ballpoint?

In the Bonitia Papers is this

Det. Robert Whitson arrived at the Ramsey residence at approximately 9:30 a.m. to inform John that the FBI had been notified and were assisting in the investigation. Whitson briefly talked to John about security for the home, and John again stated that he had personally locked up the house on the night of December 25, and that he rechecked that morning and found everything was still locked. "Whitson and Patterson then asked John for samples of his handwriting. John went to a counter near the spiral staircase and picked up two letter-size pads of white lined paper. John handed both pads to Det. Patterson explaining that one pad contained prior writings of Patsy and the other his prior writings. Patterson took the pads and made a notation on the tope of each indicating which one belonged to Patsy and which one belonged to John."

 

[Whaleshark]

Ok, so they did each use their own pad, perhaps, but both pads were there on the counter, and either one, or both of them, used one of the pads that they owned to write the note. They did it anyway, and they are both equally implicated, as they both had access to their own, and each other's writing pads...

 

[redheadedgal]

Right, so we can quit saying it was Patsy's paper and pen, etc.

why? the various detectives and investigators labelled it as such:

ST, pg. 31

When Sergeant Bob Whitson had arrived at the house, he asked for handwriting samples of John and Patsy Ramsey, standard procedure to begin eliminating people as possible suspects. John Ramsey had picked up two tablets of white lined paper -- one from a countertop and the other from a hallway table a few steps from the spiral staircase -- and handed them to the policeman. Whitson scribbed John across the top of one, which contained business notes Ramsey said he made, and Patsy atop the second, on which the first four pages were covered with doodles, lists and other writing in a feminine hand.


AJK, pg. 93

When Sgt. Bob Whitson asked John Ramsey for samples of handwriting for him and his wife, Ramsey grabbed a pad of paper and wrote out the following: "Now is the time for all good men". He also produced another pad of paper from the kitchen that he described as belonging to Patsy.

 

[redheadedgal]

Ok, so they did each use their own pad, perhaps, but both pads were there on the counter, and either one, or both of them, used one of the pads that they owned to write the note. They did it anyway, and they are both equally implicated, as they both had access to their own, and each other's writing pads...

no-- see my previous post