I can't find a hole in this theory...

[otg]

I think we're almost there, UKG. Which is gonna be something, considering this discussion goes back almost two years now:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5733074#post5733074"]Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices - Page 3 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


(...and this was before we had some of the information we have now about it.)

otg,

With all due respect. If you test some material using spectral analysis and you find out it has the property of being birefringent, then its two indexes, e.g. ordinary-ray and extra-ordinary ray, alone should allow you to identify it from a table of indices, but I guess they use computers to do that too these days. Cellulose is optically biaxial and is highly birefringent.

But that would be the case only if he was doing the spectral analysis at the same time he was doing the rest of the autopsy. He wasn't. He was doing an autopsy on a dead body, and gathering evidence that would be analyzed later -- probably by an independent lab.

It could be argued that Coroner Meyer was being economical in his use of words. Rather than state a splinter of wood had been found inside JonBenet, he chose to describe it as birefringent material.

True, it could be. I'll just leave that one there, because we don't (and probably won't) know.

Originally you asked:

Did the splinter come directly from the paintbrush, or was it transferred by a finger which had picked it up while breaking the paintbrush? We will probably never know the answer to that.

That is:

1. Did the splinter come directly from the paintbrush?

2. Transferred by a finger which had picked it up while breaking the paintbrush?

OK unless the episode of acute sexual assault incorporates the paintbrush as part of the sex play, then at this stage no splinter of wood will be on the perpetrators finger, because the paintbrush has not been snapped in two, so far.

Correct. And in this scenario, by your description, it is the paintbrush being used and not the fingers.

When the paintbrush is used as staging it is snapped in two. Now assuming the stager did not digitally assault JonBenet, e.g. why bother with a paintbrush, then the splinter probably originated from the paintbrush being inserted into JonBenet?

:waitasec:
I think I agree with you.

The use of the paintbrush is linked directly to Patsy, because her fibers are embedded into the knotting of the ligature/paintbrush garrote.

If you mean the "use of the paintbrush" as in... its use in the fashioning of a "garrote" (I can't believe I just used that word there.), then yes, I agree again.

No doubt you can suggest some other scenario?

You've read what I believe happened. It hasn't changed that much from what I stated in the thread referenced above. If you recall, I was somewhat excoriated at the time for suggesting that BR had anything to do with any of this.
.

 

[BOESP]

<Snip>

The RN is odd. Why would PR use notepaper, pens and idioms that could be traced back to her if she was staging a kidnapping?
<snip>

Who else's notepaper and pens is she going to use? It's her house.

 

[BOESP]

And what do the behavioral experts have to say about a mother who covers for her son by constructing a garotte and strangling her daughter with it? Any precedent for THAT behavior in the books?

I'm surprised you don't know or perhaps don't remember that the FBI made a statement (the agent's name escapes me and what follows is my paraphrase) that they had no case on file that came close to being similar to JonBenet's homicide or purported kidnapping.

By the way, it was a ligature strangulation, not asphyxiation by garotte.

 

[blefuscu]

Who else's notepaper and pens is she going to use? It's her house.

We are supposed to believe that PR goes to lengths to stage an intruder but is daft enough to use paper and a pen that can be traced back to her? Oh come on. In that case why didn't she just leave a signed confession and not a RN? Surely she is going to try and make it NOT look like she had any involvement if she had written it?

Why would she write, "don't contact the police..." and then immediately go and contact the police? Have you even compared her writing to the note?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Zahara ( probably spelled it wrong ) the little girl with the idiot for a dad and the stepmother that sawed the child into pieces...,.step mom also wrote a fake ransom note at one point and even started a fire as a diversion ....iirc
Only difference....the body parts were already dumped.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rashomon]

If both PR and JR are complicit in the crime why the need to lie about JBR eating pineapple? Is pineapple illegal in Colorado? :floorlaugh:

That the Ramseys "had to lie" about JBR eating pineapple on that night was a logical consequence of the story they had presented to LE, which was that JonBenet had been fast asleep when they arrived home, and not even woken up as they put her to bed. Since they could not 'backpedal' anymore and suddenly admit she had been awake (and eaten pineapple), the only option left open to them was denial.

The root motive of the Ramseys' lie was not to conceal that JonBenet had eaten pineapple (I think they either had not been aware of the forensic relevance of a victim's stomach content, or truly had not been an 'eyewitness' to JonBenet's eating pineapple because they were in another room while she ate it) -

The root motive of their lie was to conceal that JonBenet had been awake when they arrived home, and that the horrific events involving a Ramsey as the offender took place not long after they had arrived home and not yet gone to bed.

So in order to make it more difficult for LE to 'connect the dots', and also to dissociate themselves from their involvement in the actual events, the Ramseys' story was that the last time they had seen JonBenet alive was when she had been fast asleep and just fine.

 

[UKGuy]

I think we're almost there, UKG. Which is gonna be something, considering this discussion goes back almost two years now:
Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices - Page 3 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


(...and this was before we had some of the information we have now about it.)


But that would be the case only if he was doing the spectral analysis at the same time he was doing the rest of the autopsy. He wasn't. He was doing an autopsy on a dead body, and gathering evidence that would be analyzed later -- probably by an independent lab.

True, it could be. I'll just leave that one there, because we don't (and probably won't) know.

Correct. And in this scenario, by your description, it is the paintbrush being used and not the fingers.

:waitasec:
I think I agree with you.

If you mean the "use of the paintbrush" as in... its use in the fashioning of a "garrote" (I can't believe I just used that word there.), then yes, I agree again.

You've read what I believe happened. It hasn't changed that much from what I stated in the thread referenced above. If you recall, I was somewhat excoriated at the time for suggesting that BR had anything to do with any of this.
.

otg,
Its Happy Days again.

That was my fault for not explaining myself properly in my first post.

Yes we have done most of this before, including ruling out BlueCrab's EA theory.

This time round we have more evidence at our disposal, and was it Ol' Sherlock who said "Once you have ruled everything out, what's left must be the answer", or words to that effect? Enter stage left BR.

Kolar's book and his behavioural analysis put BDI on the table ahead of JDI. And it just so happens BDI is the most consistent theory out there. The rest simply have more holes.


.

 

[SyraKelly]

otg,
Its Happy Days again.

That was my fault for not explaining myself properly in my first post.

Yes we have done most of this before, including ruling out BlueCrab's EA theory.

This time round we have more evidence at our disposal, and was it Ol' Sherlock who said "Once you have ruled everything out, what's left must be the answer", or words to that effect? Enter stage left BR.

Kolar's book and his behavioural analysis put BDI on the table ahead of JDI. And it just so happens BDI is the most consistent theory out there. The rest simply have more holes.


.

I agree-I think B had more of a motive THAT NIGHT then John!!
I keep coming back and asking myself-Why that night?

 

[BOESP]

We are supposed to believe that PR goes to lengths to stage an intruder but is daft enough to use paper and a pen that can be traced back to her? Oh come on. In that case why didn't she just leave a signed confession and not a RN? Surely she is going to try and make it NOT look like she had any involvement if she had written it?

Why would she write, "don't contact the police..." and then immediately go and contact the police? Have you even compared her writing to the note?

But you didn't answer my question: whose paper and pen would she use if she wrote the note? Surely you had something in mind when you said that.

 

[Whaleshark]

We are supposed to believe that PR goes to lengths to stage an intruder but is daft enough to use paper and a pen that can be traced back to her? Oh come on. In that case why didn't she just leave a signed confession and not a RN? Surely she is going to try and make it NOT look like she had any involvement if she had written it?

Why would she write, "don't contact the police..." and then immediately go and contact the police? Have you even compared her writing to the note?

But everything used in the crime was from the house.

And where are they going to go in the middle of the night on Christmas night to get supplies not associated with their house?

This is why they had to act like things in their house were unfamiliar to them or not in the right places, or how they would normally 'use' them....

...and especially helpful was the chaos that morning with people coming in and moving things around, removing prints, leaving new touch dna, cleaning things up, changing and destroying the crime scene.

So once a bowl is on the table, with a 'large' spoon in it, a glass moved and used on the table, a kleenex box not in its 'exact' normal location, a flashlight that may/may not be theirs, even though they have one just like it, they can try to add doubt about their own items. that's all they can do.

but every item in the crime and in the house was theirs, and no foreign objects or items were left behind by someone else....

 

[UKGuy]

I'm surprised you don't know or perhaps don't remember that the FBI made a statement (the agent's name escapes me and what follows is my paraphrase) that they had no case on file that came close to being similar to JonBenet's homicide.

By the way, it was a ligature strangulation, not asphyxiation by garotte.

BOESP,
You win a cigar. No agent is named its just refers to profilers, here is some quotes, they offer some meat for discussion.

Perfect Murder, Perfect Town

Douglas told Dateline’s Chris Hansen that he had sat across the table from some of the country’s, if not the world’s, greatest liars and that when he had met with the Ramseys for four hours, he left with the opinion that they did not kill their daughter.

In his new book, he wrote that parents who kill their children usually report them missing and leave a staged scene. When asked by Hansen if this fit the Ramsey case, Douglas said he couldn’t see any staging by the Ramseys. In his entire career, he had never seen a case where a parent put a ligature around a child’s neck or duct tape over a child’s mouth. Also, Douglas told Hansen, parents who kill their children take pains to avoid being the person to find the body.

“From what I’ve seen and experienced [in this case],” Douglas said, “I say they [the Ramseys] were not involved.”

Perfect Murder, Perfect Town

The FBI profilers who scrutinized the overall crime scene, the autopsy findings, and the fingerprints, fibers, and blood evidence told the police that the ransom note was the most important piece of behavioral evidence in the case. Of all the elements of the crime, it probably took longest to complete.

The police believed that if the ransom note was written before JonBenét’s murder, that left the door open to the possibility of an intruder, but if it was written after she was killed, it was unlikely an intruder would have stayed to write it. But the FBI and the police could not determine when the ransom note was written

Once JonBenét had been murdered, the only reason to write the note or to leave it behind was to provide a false motive for the crime. And, to give credibility to the ransom note and a bogus kidnapping, the offender had to make the police believe that JonBenét had been restrained and silenced. That was called staging within staging.

The moment JonBenét died and her body was left in a place where it would be found, the ransom money was lost forever to the kidnapper. If it was a real abduction gone sour, why leave the ransom note? After all, the handwriting might lead the police to the killer. The only reasonable conclusion was that the note had been left behind in an attempt to hide the killer’s identity and the real reason for JonBenét’s death.

If the killer was a stranger, why did he wrap JonBenét’s body in a blanket? Why try to comfort someone who was no longer of use? The dominant sign of hostility toward JonBenét was the use of the noose. Its elevation at every point around the neck was equal in distance from the shoulders, indicating that it had not been tied during a struggle. The FBI had never before encountered this type of violence in a child homicide. No parent who killed a child had ever used a “garrote” for strangulation.

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[blefuscu]

But you didn't answer my question: whose paper and pen would she use if she wrote the note? Surely you had something in mind when you said that.

Yeah I think JR wrote it not PR.

 

[blefuscu]

But everything used in the crime was from the house.

And where are they going to go in the middle of the night on Christmas night to get supplies not associated with their house?

This is why they had to act like things in their house were unfamiliar to them or not in the right places, or how they would normally 'use' them....

...and especially helpful was the chaos that morning with people coming in and moving things around, removing prints, leaving new touch dna, cleaning things up, changing and destroying the crime scene.

So once a bowl is on the table, with a 'large' spoon in it, a glass moved and used on the table, a kleenex box not in its 'exact' normal location, a flashlight that may/may not be theirs, even though they have one just like it, they can try to add doubt about their own items. that's all they can do.

but every item in the crime and in the house was theirs, and no foreign objects or items were left behind by someone else....

But why PR? Nothing that I've read or seen points to PR.

JR on the other hand......

 

[dodie20]

And what do the behavioral experts have to say about a mother who covers for her son by constructing a garotte and strangling her daughter with it? Any precedent for THAT behavior in the books?

well, they would have plenty to say, I think...just like they'd have a lot to say about a father who would kill his daughter in such a way. PR covering for BR, is no crazier than Any 1 of them doing the killing, or covering for the killer. Somebody did these things to JB and killed her, so why would 1 person as the perp, be unbelievable, as oppsed to another? It's the same end result, no matter who killed her. I don't see how you've so easily ruled out PR and BR. Yes, I know you think JR wrote the note and acted alone, and PR unknowing, called 911 and messed up his plans...but really, there's no proof, just you guessing that it was his handwriting, and guessing what his plans were. Maybe you're right, and he really did plan all this out, just like you said, but unless the murder was premeditated, I don't see it. Just because it Could have happened this way, doesn't mean it did. There are other possibilities. When I read the note, it was MOO, that the author might have been intoxicated, especially towards the end, because it started rambling off topic, and didn't make much sense. Also MOO, I noticed in the 911, that PR slurred a few words and phrases. For instance, when she said, 'she's not here', it sounded like she said, 'she's right here'. If that sentence hadn't been transcribed, I would have thought she confessed! Yes, I know I'm guessing too, but PR being intoxicated, is another possibility. MOO

 

[UKGuy]

I agree-I think B had more of a motive THAT NIGHT then John!!
I keep coming back and asking myself-Why that night?

SyraKelly,
Yes, that why that night? if its BDI and Kolar is correct about his behavioural analysis, then maybe BR thought the parents would be distracted, or engaged with the following mornings flight and departure on vacation?

Could be otg is correct and BR enjoyed lording it over his sister?



.

 

[midwest mama]

otg,
Its Happy Days again.

That was my fault for not explaining myself properly in my first post.

Yes we have done most of this before, including ruling out BlueCrab's EA theory.

This time round we have more evidence at our disposal, and was it Ol' Sherlock who said "Once you have ruled everything out, what's left must be the answer", or words to that effect? Enter stage left BR.

Kolar's book and his behavioural analysis put BDI on the table ahead of JDI. And it just so happens BDI is the most consistent theory out there. The rest simply have more holes.



.

For me it's:

Burke and JB involved together in several activities without Mom and Dad knowing about it. Mom and Dad on 3rd floor, Burke and JB on 2nd, above other two floors also part of crime scene. All activity led up to Burke putting ligature on JB to use for some sort of game. Game out of control, Burke's rage brings head blow to JB. After some time and effort on his part to rouse her, realizes he better at least get Mom.

Mom goes immediately to assist, sees sexual aspect along with bash. JR could wait to see if Patsy can handle whatever the matter is, but is awake now. Frantic, gets JR involved. Both PR and JR now working thru the cleanup, JB still not coming around, maybe think she is dead. What now?

Better make it look like someone outside the family did her in. Fake the kidnapping note. More family incest than they wanted public to know about - might have even involved JAR at some previous time (his bed covering with semen on it was inside of suitcase found below window). Better make it look like kidnappers assaulted her in the hopes it would disguise former abuse. Write "if you call police" she dies. Then call police, so there would be an excuse to find her dead, as the kidnappers said they would do. Better tighten that ligature enough to make it look like they strangled her (the R's thought she was dead anyway by now). Burke's bash didn't leave any obvious scalp marks, but they could have felt the dent if Burke told what he's done, which is why they thought she was dead from the bash.

Ask for $118,000 in note - little explanation to bankers about getting small amount of money out, wouldn't be marked, could later carry and spend pretty easily over course of time. Not unusal to have 100's and 20's, could even say we're giving some cash to older kids since it's Christmas. Not really gonna deliver money, so have to make it easy to dole out slowly. Would tell cops they delivered the money, but kidnappers killed JB anyway.

Discord of situation - running out of time - supposed to be on plane to meet other kids. Not enough time to dispose of body to be found later because 'kidnappers warned not to call police or they'd kill her'. Make the 911 call, and hide the body in the house - cops won't look through the house for kidnapped body, They believed they could figure out later how to get her out of the house and dumped somewhere. Plenty of success at planning and executing major activities and plans - why would they feel this task wouldn't succeed?

Patsy helped with all the staging, but JR had to be the one to give the final murderous pull on the ligature, because Patsy would not have had to guts for it. And JR thought she was dead already anyway.

From the time of the call, things unfolded unlike anyone might have suspected, and the rest is history.

 

[UKGuy]

For me it's:

Burke and JB involved together in several activities without Mom and Dad knowing about it. Mom and Dad on 3rd floor, Burke and JB on 2nd, above other two floors also part of crime scene. All activity led up to Burke putting ligature on JB to use for some sort of game. Game out of control, Burke's rage brings head blow to JB. After some time and effort on his part to rouse her, realizes he better at least get Mom.

Mom goes immediately to assist, sees sexual aspect along with bash. JR could wait to see if Patsy can handle whatever the matter is, but is awake now. Frantic, gets JR involved. Both PR and JR now working thru the cleanup, JB still not coming around, maybe think she is dead. What now?

Better make it look like someone outside the family did her in. Fake the kidnapping note. More family incest than they wanted public to know about - might have even involved JAR at some previous time (his bed covering with semen on it was inside of suitcase found below window). Better make it look like kidnappers assaulted her in the hopes it would disguise former abuse. Write "if you call police" she dies. Then call police, so there would be an excuse to find her dead, as the kidnappers said they would do. Better tighten that ligature enough to make it look like they strangled her (the R's thought she was dead anyway by now). Burke's bash didn't leave any obvious scalp marks, but they could have felt the dent if Burke told what he's done, which is why they thought she was dead from the bash.

Ask for $118,000 in note - little explanation to bankers about getting small amount of money out, wouldn't be marked, could later carry and spend pretty easily over course of time. Not unusal to have 100's and 20's, could even say we're giving some cash to older kids since it's Christmas. Not really gonna deliver money, so have to make it easy to dole out slowly. Would tell cops they delivered the money, but kidnappers killed JB anyway.

Discord of situation - running out of time - supposed to be on plane to meet other kids. Not enough time to dispose of body to be found later because 'kidnappers warned not to call police or they'd kill her'. Make the 911 call, and hide the body in the house - cops won't look through the house for kidnapped body, They believed they could figure out later how to get her out of the house and dumped somewhere. Plenty of success at planning and executing major activities and plans - why would they feel this task wouldn't succeed?

Patsy helped with all the staging, but JR had to be the one to give the final murderous pull on the ligature, because Patsy would not have had to guts for it. And JR thought she was dead already anyway.

From the time of the call, things unfolded unlike anyone might have suspected, and the rest is history.

midwest mama,
I agree. Something like that, IMO the emphasised phrase represents Ramsey arrogance completely, maybe thats why it worked eventually?


.

 

[Whaleshark]

But why PR? Nothing that I've read or seen points to PR.

JR on the other hand......

Well, that's a different part of the question. I was answering your scoff about the use of the pen/paper:

We are supposed to believe that PR goes to lengths to stage an intruder but is daft enough to use paper and a pen that can be traced back to her? Oh come on. In that case why didn't she just leave a signed confession and not a RN? Surely she is going to try and make it NOT look like she had any involvement if she had written it??

Even if you believe JR, the paper and pen are still from his house. The paper and pen can be traced back to them, not just her. And not just that, everything involved in the crime. Whether it was PR or JR, all materials are from their house. Since they had notepads and pens left out for everyone to use, and the notepad and pen were not in Patsy's sole possession locked up in a safe that only she knew the combination to, or vice versa, they all had access to those supplies, and all would readily use them, if needed. They don't have much choice BUT to use the supplies in their house in the middle of the night on Xmas night. What else are they going to do? Go to a neighbor's and try to explain why they need to borrow some materials at that time? No store is open.... and even if it were, at that time, they could be witnessed as having shopped there at that time...

Why would she write, "don't contact the police..." and then immediately go and contact the police? Have you even compared her writing to the note?

At some point, the police have to be contacted because JonBenet is gone. They had imminent plans and people expecting them very early the next morning. They had to set the plan in motion as soon as possible.

She claimed she didn't read the note all the way through -- sounds like a good way for her to get out of 'not realizing' the implications of calling the police anyway.....

As for me, I'm not committed to either a PR or JR only theory.... but I do see evidence of both, not just JR.

Looks to me like BOTH handwritings are in the note, with BOTH as authors.
And they wrote things together all the time, so it's very plausible the same occurred with the RN.

 

[blefuscu]

What I was trying to point out, as I explained in my initial post in this thread, was that I don't see how PR is implicated in the RN. People have said "it's PR's paper and pen" but like you've just pointed out, Whaleshark, everyone had access to the paper and pen, not just PR.

 

[Chrishope]

Zahara ( probably spelled it wrong ) the little girl with the idiot for a dad and the stepmother that sawed the child into pieces...,.step mom also wrote a fake ransom note at one point and even started a fire as a diversion ....iirc
Only difference....the body parts were already dumped.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's quite a difference.